Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Good Situational Awareness

Wikiposts
Search
Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Good Situational Awareness

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 29th Mar 2011, 12:49
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Norfolk
Age: 84
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
True situational awareness is almost unteachable (although guidance can be given as to the aims) because it depends on the amount of spare processing power left after the requirements of flying the bird, and therefore also depends a lot on ones familiarity with the aircraft you are flying.
It is interesting in this context that in combat, the vast majority of kills in WW2 were achieved by a very small number of pilots possibly helped by their ability to keep track of a complex situation (and shoot straight).
In nearly 50 years of instruction in and out of the military, I have flown with a only a few people who were really the tops in SA. It was an awesome experience and almost completely independent of piloting skill.
rotorfossil is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2011, 14:41
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am not so sure that it cant be taught - at least to a degree.

It is like so many things in life a big element is learning how to effectively manage your time and how to prioritise. Most of the time the plot falls apart because you become overloaded and in most cases you become overloaded because of lack of planning and or lack of methodolgy to tackle the unfolding events.

In a simple case such as an engine failure because it can take us by surprise and can cause immediate panic PPL training focuses on teaching the pilot to fall back on a rehearsed drill. Part of the drill comprises prioritising, identifying and maintaining visual contact with the proposed landing site, thereby maintaining some SA as events unfold.

In just the same way getting into the habit of rehearsing the route, the alternates, the approach and during the flight developing the habit of challenging yourself to ask where am I, what is around me, in what way, if any has my plan changed etc., goes a very long way to avoiding any nasty surprises and in so doing even the less experienced pilots will do a much better job of SA.

Yes of course it comes with experience, but you learn one hell of a lot by having the old hat sitting next to you putting to you the usual questions - so have you self briefed for the approach, what are you going to do if the active changes, suppose you dont like the look of those clouds in the distance when we get a little nearer, where you going to go, what you going to do, etc.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2011, 20:11
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Moray,Scotland,U.K.
Posts: 1,777
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Anyone who is paranoid has good situational awareness.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 12:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would go further and say that pilots withgood situational awareness have dominant visual brains. I knew one who could operate totally without a checklist and very quickly by purely darting his fingers around the panel to the right switches in the right order! Tell him to recite the checklist and he hadn't a clue.
I see the brain as a computer one part on board memory the other the graphics card.
The guy lucky enough to have a powerful graphics card with tons of on board memory can deal with a lot of visual information.
The guy with a poor card with low on board me memory has ro rely on the main computer memory to back up his graphics card otherwise he quickly freezes up or stutters.
You cannot be taught situational awareness you can put more information in the main memory banks.
I also knew another pilot who was detailed to the extreme . He planned every tiny detail and was an excellent pilot till one day his destination went down as did his alternatives and he no longer had his plans.
The poor guy could not cope survived but gave up flying as the experience scared him silly.

Pace
Pace is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 12:48
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You cannot be taught situational awareness you can put more information in the main memory banks.
I disagree. You can teach anyone, anything what you cant teach is for them to excel. You can teach a pilot how to improve his SA awareness enormously, and usually because they have never been shown before.

I also knew another pilot who was detailed to the extreme. He planned every tiny detail and was an excellent pilot till one day his destination went down as did his alternatives and he no longer had his plans.
Actually nearly everything we do is based on past experience. It is experience that helps us to think outside the box. This pilot was in no different a situation but had clearly never been challenged as to what he would do when his alternate went down as well. If he were an instrument pilot then the training let him down badly, if he was not, then the training still left a great deal to be desired.

Actually I think for most pilots, including myself, the problems really start when you encounter a new problem followed by another event or event(s) that come quickly or the first problem does not respond in the way we think it should. For example I had an over temp on an engine, found myself in two minds whether or not to shut it down because I had never seen the problem before and the POH conflicted with my natural reaction, and then I found I couldnt adequately trim out the asymetry, so I ended up working two unexpected issues whilst managing to lose some SA.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 17:25
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fuji

With the best will in the world you cannot teach people to do anything. You can improve but not teach.
A running instructor might improve the time I can run a mile but I would never do it in under 4 minutes or anything even vaguely approaching 4 minutes.

CTC profile potential pilots to have the right attributes to a high degree.

Even with that one I know of got through the net and after all his training failed at the last hurdle even though he was given extra training to catch up with the others and these were all pilots screeened to have the correct attributes.

Take the mixed bag of the PPL world and I cannot agree we can all be trained to a set level especially when it comes to situational awareness anymore than I could be trained to run a 4 minute mile or get pole position in a formula 1 car

Pace
Pace is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 20:39
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pace - well if you read my last post we essentially agree because I took care to say you can teach anyone, anything, but you cant teach them to excel. If you say so I couldnt teach you to run a sub four min. mile any more than I could teach my 93 year old Dad, but I could teach you how to reduce your mile time by a surprising amount.

In terms of pilots there are those that will always struggle but with good teaching you can get a lot more out of anyone willing. The problem with most GA pilots is they have had very little teaching after they qualify and the teaching they had pre-PPL while adequate for the task is inadequate for them to spread their wings; that is why the fortunate few fall into the hands of a good mentor,while most give up, or without knowing it resign themselves to being always a far less able pilot than they might.

It is for those reasons that I believe you can teach most pilots techniques that will help them improve their situational awareness enormously - they will probably never be as good as you, given the hours you have accumulated and your wealth of experience, but they will be much better than they were. Some will find it harder than others to see the plot and a few may never get it, but given time everyone will do better.

Last edited by Fuji Abound; 30th Mar 2011 at 20:55.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 20:48
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pace,
I think your last post is somewhat contradictory. The question is whether you can teach SA as a skill, which you seem to deny is possible. Firstly you say that you can't teach people to do anything, merely improve. Which implies that everyone who starts flying training may or may not be endowed with a thing called SA. If you have it, an instructor might be able to improve it. If not - tough. You can't improve what isn't there. Kind of like the "right stuff".

But you finish by questioning whether anyone can be trained to a certain standard e.g. running a mile in 4 minutes or achieving pole in a formula 1 car.
This is different. Taking the latter - yes you can teach someone who has never driven before how to drive a formula 1 car. Whether they will be able to get round a lap in one piece in anything near 1 minute 23 seconds (the standard) is another matter. Even with The Stig for an instructor!

So back to SA. As pilots we all like to think that we have "good SA". Well I'm quite happy to admit that when I started flying I had none. Zilch. My sole focus of attention was in controlling the beast. Over time and with good instruction, practice and above all experience I'd like to think that my SA has improved. True, not everyone can be trained to a "set level" of SA (whatever that is), but the basic techniques for keeping track of events outside the cockpit can be taught e.g. "stop talking for a second and listen to that other guy on the radio, where is he, what is he doing, how will that affect you?" or, "we took off on R/W 27 into a strong headwind, is it really appropriate to be doing a forced landing into a field heading east?"

BJ

Last edited by Black Jake; 31st Mar 2011 at 15:06.
Black Jake is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 21:02
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Black Jake - yes, I believe you have it - and there are two ways to improve at anything - the slow way, self taught, and by experience, and the fast track, with a good mentor who is able to pass on their experience to you.

In my view the problem with private flying is that it is one of the worst examples of creating an enviroment in which people share their experience. In sport people join clubs, train together, compete together and by its nature are often anxious to perform better, in business it is very much in the owner's interest to mentor emplyees, but with flying it can end up being a pretty lonely experience.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2011, 22:55
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just one more thought before I go to bed. Rotorfossil made a point about a small number of pilots making most of the kills in WW2, presumably due to some inbuilt SA in their psyche.

Anyone seen Top Gun?

The whole point of the US Naval Fighter Weapons School (TopGun) and the European equivalent, the Tactical Leadership Programme, is to train fighter pilots how to survive (and preferably win) their first few engagements in air combat. The school was set up following hard won experience in Vietnam which demonstrated that superior technology didn't necessarily equate to superior kill ratios. Is there any parallel here with the recent NTSB report that concludes that glass panel flight displays don't necessarily equate to improves flight safety?

http://www.avweb.com/pdf/ntsb_glass-...lsa_report.pdf

The USN and European NATO air forces could be wrong, but they seem to think that one can train and develop "good SA" in their fighter pilots.

BJ

Last edited by Black Jake; 31st Mar 2011 at 16:46.
Black Jake is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 07:26
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We all know the phrase 'fly within our limitations'!
Most accidents are caused by pilot error Ie getting into a situation that they cannot handle.
Obviously training and experience play a major parr in how we handle a situation.
There are pilots who make excellent VFR pilots but are uncomfortable in IMC and those who are as comfortable in IMC as they are in VMC.
We know that in instrument training there are naturals who instinctively scan and have a natural ability to handle other areas like aircraft operation, radio operation and navigation while others struggle more.
People can be tested on their reactions , balance. Ability to take in visual information etc and we are not the same.
Put 50 pilots in a sim 50 IR pilots trained to the same level and start loading them with problems.
We all have an overload point but I can assure you that that point will be different in those pilots.
Yes training and experience is vital but they are not the only ingredients in situational awareness.
Ability and makeup also plays a major part they do in being able to drive a formula one car at competitive times.

Pace
Pace is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 07:32
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Black Jake;

That report may have something. I spend a lot of time flying with pilots of widely varying degrees of experience (low time ppls at the flying club-multi thouand hour ATPLs at work). I always notice that those pilots who come from a relatively "low tech" background have the best SA.

One real stand out point is that SA appears to improve with experience, and is at its best in the two crew environment. The two crew environment is fairly obvious, 2 brains not working to their full capacity and questioning the decision making of each other. As for experience, that is just what it is. You learn a lesson, you don't forget it, next time a situation arises the old lessons are applied and modified as needed.

Some of the best situational awareness I have ever seen is in low level police and EMS helicopter pilots, they tend to be very experienced and call on all their own knowledge as well as that of the observers/medics as they need it.

I'm not sure if SA can be taught other than in a very basic form. The pilot must then take the basic tools and develop it for himself using every tool he can, be that the list from SNS3, reading about bad situations, or just listening to the sheepish confession of a friend who has just c***ed up over a beer in the flying club bar.
Sir Niall Dementia is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 11:09
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
be that the list from SNS3
Which list was that?
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 12:09
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fuji, your situational awareness of this thread appears lacking, post #4? OK I'll concede it is not actually a 'list' but very informative and some food for thought for the planning of my next flight. It could easily be made into a 'list' for reference before take off.

My SA was awful throughout the PPL, it's improving exponentially with the ability to fly the plane instinctively and free up mental capacity for other things. I would certainly say my instructor was teaching me it all along, but am only now able to apply it. Also plenty of 'I wouldn't do that again' experiences.

A shorter list for SA might be

Airspeed

Altitude

Brains

and remembering that one requires at least two at all times during a flight to get home. (The old ones are the best ones)

Key issue, are all pilots aware of their awareness? If one can be honest enough to know it is not all that great at least it is a start to improving it. Some mental capacity put into every subsequent flight to improve SA will no doubt lead to the whole thing becoming more natural. My next flight is a short nav revision after a long break, I'll see just how much of what SNS3 has said I can include into it.
Conventional Gear is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 13:48
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: dublin, ireland
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
a vote of thanks to many contributors to this thread from a low hours pilot. Pprune keeps me regular
hhobbit is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 21:14
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Situational awareness is nothing more than knowing where you are, what you're doing, and what you can do. It's being aware of your relationship to terrain, the closest runway, your fuel status (how much fuel you've got left, or specifically, how much time you've got left), where your charts are, your health, the weather, other traffic and any other aspect that touches on, might impact, or relates to your flight.
A shorter list for SA might be

Airspeed

Altitude

Brains
Well at least yours is more of a list that Guppies platitudes. I am guessing most of us would find Mr Guppies elements somewhat obvious, but in themselves the elements are not very useful.

Far more useful is how to go about ensuring you are situationally aware - and so my point was as interesting as this thread is there is very little to take from the thread as to HOW you go about it.

I gave an indication in my earlier post as to how I approach this issue - it is far from exhaustive but I hope it helps.

Maybe this thread is a good example of why many think it is difficult to teach.
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 22:07
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Obvious perhaps, but as a rusty PPL it's helpful to me. SNS3's 'list' looks something like:


Situational awareness during any stage of a flight may be summarised as:


1. Knowing

· Where you are
· What you are doing
· Where you are going to be (always think ahead of the aircraft)
· What you can do
· Where others are and what they are likely to do


2. Being aware of


· Relationship to terrain (remember if on QNH altitude is above sea level not height above the ground below you)
· Closest runway (radio failure, mechanical problem, medical emergency)
· Off-field landing area (engine failure, precautionary landing)
· Fuel status (how much fuel – most importantly how much TIME is left)
· Chart/Checklist location
· Your health
· The weather
· Other traffic
· Help available – (ATC frequencies & available services)
· Navigation aids – (VOR/DME/ADF frequencies, know how to use GPS)
· Any other factor that might impact on your flight (Controlled airspace)


Situational awareness during the flight may be enhanced by ground preparation:


3. Ground Preparation

· Weather (Plan alternate aerodromes)
· NOTAMS
· Weight & Balance
· Fuel Calculations
· Performance Calculations
· Flight Plan/PLOG
· Actual fuel state of aircraft
· Aircraft condition (Is it fit for flight?)
· Pilot condition (Are you fit for flight?)


As for platitudes - since gaining my PPL I've flown with several PPLs with many more hundreds of hours in their log books than I. Some of whom might benefit from reading the list. (and a couple of hours with an instructor)

I added a couple of notes/additions. Yes it's all basic and I would agree it doesn't address how it might be taught whilst your posts usefully discuss that issue.

At least for me the 'list' is worthing printing off and putting in my flight bag for reference. It really did make me rethink a few things for my next flight and gives me a quick reference for stuff I was half wondering if I had forgotten.

My earlier joke regarding your SA of the thread was simply that a 'list' did exist within SNS3's post

At the very least the above will give me some starting points regarding improving my own SA.
Conventional Gear is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 22:46
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1. Knowing

· Where you are
· What you are doing
· Where you are going to be (always think ahead of the aircraft)
· What you can do
· Where others are and what they are likely to do

but with respect you miss the point. Your list, as Mr Guppy's is obvious, although I agree not to everyone. Ask any pilot about SA and my guess is they will tell you, you need to know where you are, where you are going and what your alternates are (to paraphrase). The theory is great - and sound.

However now tell us how you achieve those objectives - that is what most pilot's need to know.

Let me give you an analogy - you could argue to get a good job, you need to present well, produce a solid CV, put over the reasons why you are suitable for the job convincingly at interview etc, that much most candidates with any hope know, the problem is most dont know how to do it!

Hence my point Mr Guppy told us what you need to do, as, with respect have you, not how you do it!
Fuji Abound is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2011, 23:38
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Essex UK
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I appreciate your point, but if there is a basic agreement the elements are all there, then:

Where you are - OK I was taught PLOG/map/stopwatch during the PPL for VFR flight. It has to date never let me down. Not withstanding I also carry a moving map GPS and a backup GPS. I've never found navigating by map in the least bit difficult on VFR pleasure flights. Do the calculations, fly the heading, check the time. If it did go very wrong I would be outside my comfort zone, hence why I have a moving map GPS running in the cockpit too with the route loaded. I also do most of my VFR flights on a sim with photoscenery. Helps me know what to expect on the actual flight. If it's still not working VOR/VOR VOR/DME cuts, still no good? - call ATC and say I AM LOST! There really is not a lot of excuse for not knowing where one is.

I would argue that is better SA than pilot X I fly with who never plans a flight or talks to ATC and wanders around in circles saying how much fun it is to just go 'visit' places and always argues regarding visual ground references. (all the time I know where I am because I have the map and GPS - I only get assertive when I know we will bust airspace and otherwise just let pilot X get on with 'teaching' their far superior navigation techniques)


What you are doing - well it doesn't hurt to remind oneself what stage of a flight one is in. FREDA checks etc, changing course, joining a traffic pattern.

Where are you going to be - PLOG/map/time and or moving map GPS

What you can do - this is one that made me rethink, I checked all local airfields and found two not marked on my CAA map, a farm strip and a small private aerodrome. Could be plenty more to add to the list, VOR radials, NDB frequency to nearest airfield for each leg etc.

What others are doing - listen into at least, preferably get a service from ATC - look out of the cockpit. OK we know there are limitations but not doing those things doesn't improve the situation. Knowing where to look when given traffic information or hearing calls took me time, I'm still working on it, but I learnt pretty quickly if I didn't see it, it's because it is somewhere else, so look around. Still can't see it? Is it time to act and change altitude or heading?

I think from the basic list each point can be expanded in this way, from the above there could be further expansions and discussion.

In the end it all comes back to that one word Airmanship at the end of the day, good pilot SA is one of the requirements of good Airmanship. In my experience SA is like landing, it's hard for instructors to teach. They can say the right things but does it 'click' but perhaps with persistence an instructor can pass on the right attitude for future learning and as pilots we can question our SA rather than believing we know it all.
Conventional Gear is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2011, 10:05
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Understandably, you have mentioned all the basic elements taught during the PPL.

You seem comfortable following a preordained plan. Perhaps you wouldn’t be as comfortable were the plan to change. In fact your friend unwittingly may have given you some good advice.

You will find one of the best ways of improving your SA is to place yourself outside of your comfort zone. I have flown with pilots that have planned to the Nth degree – they think they have everything covered and then the runway changes, they find themselves flying the missed and it all falls apart.

So choose three airports – have a look at the met and the wide area NOTAMs but don’t think too much about which runway you will be using just ensure crosswinds limits will not be an issue on the day and set off. Work it out on the hoof so to speak and see how it goes. You may find you learn a great deal and your SA improves significantly as a consequence – not on that flight, but on subsequent flights.

Next time you fly think of a time mid flight – it could be 11.10 for example. When 11.10 comes you have had an engine failure or a temp warning as you prefer. I bet you miss the time and I bet you find the experience interesting.

Next time you pass over an airfield on route somewhere give them a call on the spur and ask if they will accept you for a coffee. It will improve your SA.

In each of these scenarios think about the process you will go through when the “event” occurs. Just by planning for these events you will find your ability to cope with genuine diversions and even pre-planned routes improves immeasurably and with it you’re general SAs.

If you are serious about your flying any pilot should get to the stage where he can sit in the cockpit, decide on a destination a few hundred miles away in the UK, and assuming VMC, he can plan the route and be airbourne in less than 15 minutes. It may be hard work but next time your SA is challenge in earnest youw ill be amazed how much more spare brain capacity you have because you have been there and done it before.

In short these are all techniques that help you to get use to planning on the hoof - it is when the plans go out the window that you will find so does your SA unless you know how to go about it - another subject in itself!
Fuji Abound is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.