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Old 27th Feb 2011, 13:26
  #21 (permalink)  
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There's a difference between Airmanship and CRM?

I've always regarded the latter as primarily a modern term for, and to some extent a formalisation of, the former.

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Old 27th Feb 2011, 14:42
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Airmanship is a cognitive function that is relevant to any pilot in any aircraft, in any situation in any phase of flight. CRM is a behavioural, social and commincative function to enable a MPA flight crew to work as a team, sharing their individual levels of situational awareness to make it much more likely that both crew attain more complete and accurate metal model than probably they otherwise would.

However, ei_flyer makes an excelent point about one's awareness of one's abilities. CRM, is about teamwork, and teamwork is about responsibility and delegation. To be responsible one must know one's limits. To delegate one must believe the in the abilities of the teammembers. A core enabler of CRM is therefore the ability to believe that errors are inevitable and that one is just as likely to commit errors as the next man. It isn't necessary to learn CRM to understand that, but I guess the gravitas of the CRM concept will make more people receptive to those ideas.

Last edited by Sciolistes; 27th Feb 2011 at 14:54.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 15:10
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A wider view of CRM might describe it as the application of human factors.
The human factors to be ‘applied’ are shown in the SHEL diagram, or better ‘SHELL’, with the emphasis on the central (L) – self - cognitive aspects.
Many CRM programs restrict teaching to the L - L link (social aspects) and overlook the importance of managing the other HF interfaces and resources.

Application of airmanship can be considered as an indication of the quality of management.

“Airmanship is a personal attitude to flying, why we do it, how we do it. Airmanship must grow with training, experience, and personal exposure. It is not just about staying alive or not bending the airplane or yourself, it is about walking off the airfield knowing that you have both performed and crafted an activity. You have been totally aware of what you have done and why you enjoyed it, and at that point you owe nothing to anyone.”
Tony Hayes, CFI Brisbane Valley Leisure Aviation Centre.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 19:10
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CRM isn't necessarily about teamwork. It's about managing resources. One can execute a VFR flight in uncontrolled airspace and never see or talk to a soul, and still utilize CRM. It's about managing the resources one has, from fuel to services to cockpit organization to the engine. It's about the conduct of the flight.

The FAA prefers to stress ADM now, which is Aeronautical Decision Making. Same thing from a different view.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 20:01
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Originally Posted by Ryan5252
Howdy,

I have a CRM course coming up early next month. Having looked through the relevant posts over at the CRM forum I was wondering what thoughts you good people had in relation to Single Pilot CRM courses and if you feel any benefits of them? Having looked over the book it is, to me at least, very similiar to HP&L with a significant focus on decision making (or how to not make bad ones) and airmanship.

From those of you who have been on a similar course do you have any thoughts?

Cheers
Ryan
Unfortunately this thread appears to have degenrated into a another willy waving contest so to return to the original question here is my 02 cents worth.

First off I should caveat my response by noting that when you say "CRM training" I am assuming you are talking about one of the numerous commercial operator type CRM courses. I am not aware of any formal "CRM" courses which are designed for single pilot GA operations, so my reply does not consider this possibilty.

I have been on an initial CRM course and done some refresher training. It was provided by my employer (larger T-prop airliner). A lot of the course dealt with
effective communication in Multi Crew cockpits and with the ground and company staff that are part of the operation of large aircraft.

As a current light aircraft instructor and light aircraft owner I would never want to discourage training that could improve a pilots risk management and pilot decision making skills and there will definitely be things of value to single pilot light aircraft operations, but on balance I would consider this training well into the "nice to have" category.

My personal feeling is that most light aircraft pilots benefit the most from mentored operating experience. That is going to new places with an experienced pilot along to provide advice and tips. That experienced person doesn't have to be an instructor, rather what you are looking for is someone with a lot of practical A to B flying time. Dealing with the real world issues and challenges of going somewhere you have never been before will provide you with opportunity to gain experience in real world decision making that will make you a better pilot.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 20:53
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Could someone kindly enlighten me as to the meaning of this acronym? Not that CRM can be that important, I had never even heard of it, yet passed all the tests, some even with brio, and as yet have managed to survive all my mistakes AND those of my instructors.

More generally, excuse me for moaning but may I insist acronyms should be used sparingly, and explained for the benefit of stupid foreigners like myself?
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 21:04
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Jan,

CRM; Cockpit Resource Management.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 21:12
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Dank u wel, meneer! I suppose the main cockpit resource is sufficient drink for the duration of flight (plus legal reserves, of course) and a recipient for its remains? Yes, both must be managed carefully, yes...
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 21:13
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More generally, excuse me for moaning but may I insist acronyms should be used sparingly, and explained for the benefit of stupid foreigners like myself?
Jan, it was already spelled out several times in the thread. CRM stands for both Crew Resource Management, and also Cockpit Resource Management, as previously described.
I am not aware of any formal "CRM" courses which are designed for single pilot GA operations, so my reply does not consider this possibilty.
It should. Such courses are certainly available, and are presently under discussion (hence the thread).

Simuflite and Flight Safety also emphasize this training in their courses, including single pilot aircraft such as the King Air (arguably a light, general aviation airplane).

As for "willy waving," what you'll find from a quick review of the thread (discounting the posts which have apparently been deleted) is one poster who decried and dismissed the value of CRM training, and numerous other posters who told him he is wrong.
I suppose the main cockpit resource is sufficient drink for the duration of flight (plus legal reserves, of course) and a recipient for its remains?
Management consists of far more than fuel. Chart placement is important. This may seem like a minor thing. The year before last when I had an explosive depressurization in a Cessna 421, the new-hire in the right seat, to whom I was giving training, had placed his checklists on the glareshield. A big bang, and moments later the glareshield was in front of the cockpit along with some of the cockpit, waving around in the slipstream, and the checklist was well on it's way downhill in the dark to a cotton field somewhere below.

Managing radios is a simple thing that can greatly improve efficiency. Having a frequency tuned in advance, or alternating between radios, and never tuning over an old frequency until the next one is established and working, is good practice. It's no big deal until one loses communications or blots out a frequency by installing a new one, and the new one is wrong or not working.

An example of frequency management might be the loss of the B744 UPS 6 in Dubai, just last year. Smoke filled the cockpit, and there was no way to tune radios. Having a plan in mind with a pretuned 121.5 or other solution gives options.

One prepares for an IFR departure, intent on getting to the enroute section and reducing one's workload; do you have the approach tuned up in case an immediate return is required, and are the charts available? This is certainly resource management.

Climbing out into ice, do you have the electrical power to manage everything, or must some load be shed? Electrical power is resource management.

During an approach, during a stall recovery, or during a go-around, it's all about energy management.

The much vaunted process of balancing one act against another based on potential outcome is sometimes referred to as "risk management," but is another aspect of resource management.

Flying VFR with a constant source of forced landing sites beneath, whether it's following a road or keeping open fields in sight, is resource management.

The use of a kneeboard or clipboard can be resource management.

I used to juggle an oceanic chart, a plotting chart, the flight release/flightlog/flight plan, two clipboards, and a form used for making enroute position reports and weather reports, when doing the pilot-not-flying portion of long class II navigation segments (such as the North Atlantic). Each checkpoint became a busy time.

An old hand watched me do it one day and suggested it do everything on one form; the same form I was using to record my position reports. Then transfer it at my leisure. I did, and it simplified everything. Why didn't I do it that way from the start? I had my system, and it worked, but it was more time consuming, more complicated, and shuffled too much paperwork. He showed me his system, putting the three main items on the same clipboard. All I had to do was lift one to jot down my times on the next and the whole job was done. Simple. Resource management at work.

You fly with Aunt Edna for a weekend flight to see the leaves turn shades of red. A dozen other flyers are of the same mind, each doing the same thing. You enlist Aunt Edna's help in spotting other traffic. You tell her to let you know if she sees anything at all, no matter how minor, that she thinks might need to be brought to your attention. You tell her that if she doesn't get your attention right away, then point and she will have your undivided attention. Aunt Edna spots an airplane for you and points. You've just successfully used CRM.

A gentleman years ago attempted to remove his jacket while ferrying back from spraying a field (crop dusting). He slipped the jacket off his shoulders, but didn't have the zipper completely undone. it pinned his elbows and arms behind him, and he crashed, a victim of his own wardrobe. Resource management. Simple things, but it's not just fuel. It's not just other crew members. It's not just working with ATC.

On board a flight that experienced an engine problem, we shut down an overtemp'd engine that had a compressor stall and a reported fire. Crash Fire Rescue arrived. We elected to motor the engine and do a re-start, per the checklist. While I motored, another crewmember thoughtfully called the CFR (that's Crash Fire Rescue again, Jan) to let them know to expect a puff of smoke, and explain what we were doing. We had no specific requirement to let them know, but keeping everyone in the loop was CRM; he included the CFR guys by giving them the big picture, and managing that resource. CRM works on many levels.

CRM is used in the way one addresses a problem.

CRM is used in the way one uses a checklist.

CRM is used in the way one does one's flows.

CRM is used in the way one respects "hot spots" during ground operations.

CRM is used in the way one flight plans for weight, balance, fuel, weather, cruise altitude, etc.

CRM is used in decision making, diverting, going around, landing, taking off, cruising, emergencies, routine and normal operations, abnormal operations, and in filling out paperwork.

CRM is used in conjunction with systems knowledge to get the most out of the aircraft.

CRM has nearly unlimited applications in nearly every single aspect of every flight you conduct, in any aircraft ranging from an ultralight to a 747. Take your pick.

Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 27th Feb 2011 at 21:32.
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Old 27th Feb 2011, 21:18
  #30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Radar
Jan,

CRM; Cockpit Resource Management.
Originally, now more usually Crew Resource Management.


(Unless you work in the retail trade, in which case it's Customer Resource Management, which is something else altogether).

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Old 27th Feb 2011, 22:45
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Unfortunately this thread appears to have degenrated into a another willy waving contest so to return to the original question here is my 02 cents worth.
How wonderfully ironic in a CRM thread.

Could someone kindly enlighten me as to the meaning of this acronym?
The UK CAA's CAP 720 is entitled Cockpit Resource Management and CAP 737 calls it Crew Resource Management The latter is the most common usage.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 17:47
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I attended a single crew CRM day recently along with two other regular posters on these forums. All three of us fly both single and multi crew IFR operations for the same employer and so get two courses a year each, one for the single crew stuff and one for the multi cew.

On the single crew course sources of information was one of the subjects. We are very lucky and are swamped with information from regular training, the manufacturers, the CAA our employers and our colleagues. We have a lively crew room where any theory may be espoused (and shot down) and we have pilots who are specifically tasked to examine all areas of safety and procedural changes. The one area of available information which caused the largest concern was in fact PPRUNE, especially the private flying forum. All of us had read advice on here which we thought wrong and in fact dangerous, on one occasion illegal as well. (The course was a broad mix of pilots, not just from one employer)

One of my colleagues had questioned some advice given by one regular poster on private flying and had come in for a very sarcastic response by a man who was ignoring the fact that a GPS is not a navigational or approach panacea.

Having a post count of approx ten posts for every hour you have in your log book does not make you a better pilot, it just makes you a pilot with a lot to say, and one who should perhaps spend some time on a professional CRM course. I'm lucky, I have never paid for a penny of my training (other than part of my initial PPL) and have never had to worry about getting on a course, I fly at the weekends with a lot of PPL holders and quite a few might be surprised at what they might learn on a CRM course which would cost about the same amount as an hour in a PA28.

There is little or no point in having a great shiny toy if you may possibly bend it, and people with it because you act like, or really do believe you know it all. IO540 may have a low opinion of us "professionals" but at least we are constantly monitored in our standards by by highly qualified trainers, not a bi-ennial with no checking in between.

I would be very intersted to know the legal situation this forum could find itself in if someone follows some dodgy advice and kills themselves and others, one rather loud and overbearing member of my local flying club was actually told by the CFI to keep his mouth shut and his learned opinions to himself after one bar room lecture too many to an inexperienced PPL.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 19:45
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I would be very interested to know the legal situation this forum could find itself in if someone follows some dodgy advice and kills themselves and others, one rather loud and overbearing member of my local flying club was actually told by the CFI to keep his mouth shut and his learned opinions to himself after one bar room lecture too many to an inexperienced PPL.
I suspect that while civil action might be brought for any number of frivolous causes, no criminal liability can be held. This, like a hundred other flight forums, is one of opinion. The individual who takes counsel only at the hands of the internet is a poor student; few are going to find in their defense the assertion that "I learned it on the internet."

Curious that pprune is such a topic of discussion.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 20:53
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Originally Posted by Francis Frogbound
I attended a single crew CRM day recently along with two other regular posters on these forums. All three of us fly both single and multi crew IFR operations for the same employer and so get two courses a year each, one for the single crew stuff and one for the multi cew.
.
I find it quite interesting that there is formal CRM training offered for single pilot operations. As a general statement I would suggest that in this type of training what you get out of it is influenced by what you bring to the training. Obviously as a professional pilot you will have a significant experience base to draw on, which obviously will not be the case for a low houred PPL. I would be very interested if you could post some of the course topics and how they would be directly utilizable by a day VFR PPL in a light single piston aircraft.

I ask this question because my local flying club has been thinking about offering some seminars on Pilot Decision Making (PDM) for the PPL and I am looking for ideas.

BTW I think there is a semantic differences at play here too. In Canada "CRM" seems to always be discussed in the context of Multi Crew operations with "PDM" being applied to the same kinds of processes for Single Pilot operations.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 21:28
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Mr Frogbound

Like many, you forget that one can look up your past postings...

a man who was ignoring the fact that a GPS is not a navigational or approach panacea.
I used to fly a Citation 2 and a King Air around Europe single pilot and it was the hardest work I have ever done in aviation, especially in winter. At those times when everything speeds up and you are running out of hands/feet eyes and other parts I would have given many things to have a competent pilot sitting next to me to share the load.
So, tell us how you used to navigate in that CJ2? I assume you switched off the GPS-based RNAV kit and used a special CAA Approved Stopwatch. Had to be an BRNAV approved stopwatch, because BRNAV is mandatory FL095+, and GPS is the only practical means of BRNAV compliance in GA (and that includes a CJ2).

Now I fly SPIFR helicopters and mult-pilot aeroplanes around. Technology has moved on so far that the aeroplane would be quite simple to fly single pilot, until the systems start to fail. The helicopter has a full glass cockpit and an astonishing autopilot and makes mincemeat of serious IFR flying. but it is the equipment on board which allows that.
Of course, you switch it all off because your superior training means you don't need it.

Finally for Johns7022, I have flown a "zero/zero" approach in a 172. It was into London Heathrow on my nephew's FliteSim programme, just to prove to the little horror that a "real pilot" can do anything a play pilot can. Give me that 172 scenario for real and I will be first in the airport coffee shop.
and then you write

All of us had read advice on here which we thought wrong and in fact dangerous, on one occasion illegal as well
I would be very intersted to know the legal situation this forum could find itself in if someone follows some dodgy advice and kills themselves and others, one rather loud and overbearing member of my local flying club was actually told by the CFI to keep his mouth shut and his learned opinions to himself after one bar room lecture too many to an inexperienced PPL.
but you would happily break a load of regs flying a Cat 1 C172 into LHR in Cat3C conditions.

That was just from the 1st page of your contributions to knowledge, and I have better things to do than go through the rest.

If you can write something which is educational, please do so so we can all learn from it, otherwise keep your pompous stuff to Jet Blast and the other places you live in.
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Old 1st Mar 2011, 06:05
  #36 (permalink)  
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I find it quite interesting that there is formal CRM training offered for single pilot operations.
Single Pilot CRM training is required for crew in the UK who operate SPA under an AOC. Not sure if there are similar requirements elsewhere?
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Old 1st Mar 2011, 06:46
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Does CRM Training reduce accident rates?

Well, no it doesn't... Or rather, there is hardly any data suggesting it does, and yet there are mountains of data saying that improving technology reduces the accident rate reliably and continuously. (There's an odd factor affecting the Cirrus, a high-tech aircraft with an unexpectedly very high accident rate, but if you'll forgive me I won't go down that route).

Some CRM training, if expertly planned and well presented, provides interesting food for thought, and may confer benefits. Bad CRM training is far too common and probably achieves nothing. In any case, CRM is about behaviour, and it is very difficult indeed to change behaviour.

It is also very clear that a huge, self-serving and self-justifying, industry has grown up around this fluffy subject. Getting rid of that industry, or turning it into something which serves a useful purpose, is a big challenge... The fact that the regulator is infected with that industry's virus, more so in the UK than elsewhere, doesn't help.
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Old 1st Mar 2011, 07:23
  #38 (permalink)  
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Kerling, can you give us references to support what you're saying there. My understanding is pretty much the opposite - that research is NOT showing large safety benefits from large amounts of cockpit automation, whilst CRM training is providing substantial safety benefits.

For example, most analyses of the Kansas City MD11 crash indicate that good trained CRM was a major factor in anybody surviving that, whilst poor CRM is universally shown as a major factor in the Kegworth 737 crash happening at-all. Look up G-DUKK in the current AAIB bulletin, which I'd personally label as a single pilot operational fatality, that was entirely down to CRM failings (call it airmanship or self awareness if you prefer).

On the other hand, there are an increasing number of official publications indicating that increasing cockpit automation, multi-function displays and so-on are not providing any safety benefit, and indeed may be counter-safety, particularly because pilots haven't had sufficient training in how to integrate those tools into their flying. This clearly is talking about GA, because in the airlines pilots are trained in this task integration - they call it CRM !

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