How rude
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How rude
So there we were today number 1 at the holding point with 2 other aircraft behind us for runway 10 at Leicester. Circuit extremely busy with both training and visiting aircraft etc and the radio operator doing a valiant job of trying to ease the situation. After holding for about 7 or 8 minutes, some kind soul on Final offers to go-around in order to provide a window of opportunity to clear the backlog at the hold (thanks!). The radio operator calls my aircraft up asking if we're ready for departure and my student replies in the affirmative. Student then announces 'lining up'.... We roll out onto the runway, and backtrack about 20m. As we turn around to commence takeoff, some ignorant s@d in a Pitts scoots onto the runway ahead of us, slams the power on and takes off. Sadly this kind of impatience and poor airmanship seems to happen more often than it used to. I'm also seeing more aircraft landing on runways whilst they're still occupied by other aircraft, or aircraft lining up whilst others still backtracking.... The worry is as the operating costs go up, I expect we'll see even more of this kind of thing happening - but it's pretty shabby in my opinion.
I'm sure that student pilots don't believe half of the 'did I tell you about the time when' stuff that instructors moan about.... So on a positive note, whoever was 'piloting' the Pitts provided my student with a great insight into the kinds of behaviour they'll be encountering when they acquire their licence. But if the 'pilot' hasn't got enough money to pay for another couple of minutes fuel at the hold, perhaps they should consider flying something more affordable?
Rant over.
I'm sure that student pilots don't believe half of the 'did I tell you about the time when' stuff that instructors moan about.... So on a positive note, whoever was 'piloting' the Pitts provided my student with a great insight into the kinds of behaviour they'll be encountering when they acquire their licence. But if the 'pilot' hasn't got enough money to pay for another couple of minutes fuel at the hold, perhaps they should consider flying something more affordable?
Rant over.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but if the circuit was busy and you are holding for extreme lengths of time, then whilst you are backtracking it is an ideal time for something of the Pitts ground roll to nip in front and climb away. If it was anything on similar power levels to your own aircraft I would agree on the poor airmanship principle.
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Glush
I am sure you are entirely correct in the circumstances you encountered.
However to offer another perspective there are occasions when an experienced pilot can safely take advantage of an opportunity without causing any inconvenience.
At my home airport there are two routes onto one of the runways. Many a time I have pulled up immediately after the aircraft ahead at the hold. Familiarity enables me sometimes to rattle through the checks whereas it is obvious the aircraft ahead has a student aboard and the pace is much slower. With the luxury of a quick call to AT and the requested departure from the interesection is granted although to by knowledge sometimes to the annoyance of the aircraft ahead. Why? If they werent ready (still turned into wind doing power checks) why so precious?
Perhaps the answer if in doubt was "G-XXXX ready immediate unless any objection intending to depart while G-YYYY is back tracking".
The CAP watch dogs will almost certainly object to such terribly non standard RT but sometimes plain English has its merits.
I am sure you are entirely correct in the circumstances you encountered.
However to offer another perspective there are occasions when an experienced pilot can safely take advantage of an opportunity without causing any inconvenience.
At my home airport there are two routes onto one of the runways. Many a time I have pulled up immediately after the aircraft ahead at the hold. Familiarity enables me sometimes to rattle through the checks whereas it is obvious the aircraft ahead has a student aboard and the pace is much slower. With the luxury of a quick call to AT and the requested departure from the interesection is granted although to by knowledge sometimes to the annoyance of the aircraft ahead. Why? If they werent ready (still turned into wind doing power checks) why so precious?
Perhaps the answer if in doubt was "G-XXXX ready immediate unless any objection intending to depart while G-YYYY is back tracking".
The CAP watch dogs will almost certainly object to such terribly non standard RT but sometimes plain English has its merits.
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I'm thinking along the same lines. Was your departure in any way delayed because the Pitts nipped in front? Was there any doubt in your, or the students mind, about the intentions of the Pitts? Was safety compromised because you had already started your take-off roll when he nipped in front? Was this a "heavy" Pitts that forced you to wait unexpectedly because of wake turbulence?
If not, then I'd say the Pitts did the right thing - optimize runway usage.
Nitpicking here, but shouldn't you have announced "backtracking" first? That way the Pitts maybe could've nipped in front of you even sooner. (I'm assuming that backtracking for a whopping 20m is somehow common practice for your training fleet, but that not all aircraft need that additional 20m for a safe take-off. So the information about whether you were going to line-up immediately, or do a backtrack and then line-up would be relevant for the Pitts.)
Same here. Fortunately we're blessed with wide taxiways (they need to be wide enough for 737s after all) so my call in those situations is typically "Ready for departure number two, able to pass".
If not, then I'd say the Pitts did the right thing - optimize runway usage.
Student then announces 'lining up'.... We roll out onto the runway, and backtrack about 20m.
Many a time I have pulled up immediately after the aircraft ahead at the hold.
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... have to disagree. Our aircraft was already occupying the runway and had turned around to commence takeoff. It wasn't a case of a student taking longer to do checks etc, it was just poor airmanship on the part of an impatient Pitts driver. The other aircraft holding behind it didn't seem to have a problem with waiting their turn.... And our aircraft actually has a better takeoff and climb performance than a Pitts, so not sure that would be relevant mitigation either. Sadly, it's just cr@p airmanship.
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“And our aircraft actually has a better takeoff and climb performance than a Pitts,”
Which invites two questions, what were you in and why did you waste valuable runway time backtracking 20m in such an aircraft?
Rod1
Which invites two questions, what were you in and why did you waste valuable runway time backtracking 20m in such an aircraft?
Rod1
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... ever heard the legend that goes something like, "nothing so useless as runway behind you"?
As I explain to my student pilots, it might save 30 seconds or so, but just imagine going through the hedge/fence/gate at the other end of the runway by 2 metres, when you could have gained yourself an extra 20m? Or that engine failure after takeoff that you could have got back down onto the runway with stopping distance to spare.... It's not so much to do with takeoff performance as 'stopping' performance. Perhaps when they start fitting ABS to aircraft we won't have to worry about such things..... but until then, I'll continue to encourage my guys to take the extra few seconds.
As I explain to my student pilots, it might save 30 seconds or so, but just imagine going through the hedge/fence/gate at the other end of the runway by 2 metres, when you could have gained yourself an extra 20m? Or that engine failure after takeoff that you could have got back down onto the runway with stopping distance to spare.... It's not so much to do with takeoff performance as 'stopping' performance. Perhaps when they start fitting ABS to aircraft we won't have to worry about such things..... but until then, I'll continue to encourage my guys to take the extra few seconds.
Notwithstanding the likely pointlessness of the 20m backtrack, and any difference in types - entering a runway, without any RT communications, after an aeroplane in front of you has called "lining up" is p***-poor airmanship, I have to agree with glush.
G
G
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The bottom line lies in:
In the absence of a clearance from an air traffic controller, it's just rude to nip out in front of another aircraft on the runway. The pilot of the Pitts looses a point...
Our aircraft was already occupying the runway
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Rudeness is immaterial.
The Pitts was wrong to do what he did without notifying the other aircraft already lined up. Without calling, he doesn't know if the aircraft behind him is already at max throttle and about to overtake him.
Now, with a call, I've got no issues with him.
There's nothing wrong with doing something non-standard, as long as appropriate deconfliction and comms are used. Without them, though...
The Pitts was wrong to do what he did without notifying the other aircraft already lined up. Without calling, he doesn't know if the aircraft behind him is already at max throttle and about to overtake him.
Now, with a call, I've got no issues with him.
There's nothing wrong with doing something non-standard, as long as appropriate deconfliction and comms are used. Without them, though...
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Glush
So what was your aircraft? I am genuinely interested as I have a little Pitts time; I cant think of any aircraft that would typically be used for student training that would outperform a Pitts; I appreciate you might not have being doing ab initio training.
I agree about runway ahead, but to be fair, you took your decision and the other pilot was entitled to take his. He accepted not using the full runway length and he alone was responsible for that decision.
I also agree that if you had turned and the Pitts "infringed" the runway after your turn then his airmanship was poor. If he had lined up and started his roll while you were backtracking and before you had completed your turn that might be a diffferent matter.
I am not sure what the aircraft did behind the Pitts is relevant - after all he was never going to be in a position to "take" an immediate.
Events such as this are always going to be a matter of judgement. You are an isntrutor so I would expect your judgement to be sound. I have seen novices very unhappy with the action of other pilots whereas in fact what the other pilot did was perfectly safe and not the least inconsiderate.
It is impossible to be critical about the events you describe for that reason because I can see circusmtances in which the Pitts pilot had not behaved unreasonably and equally, dependent on the Pilot's timing, the actions of a rather pushy and inconsiderate pilot. However, at least it is difficult to construct an argument that the other pilot's actions were actually dangerous, which is at least some help, while not an excuse for his actions.
You comment about aircraft landing while the runway is still occupied. I dont entirely follow your point. You will be familiar with the instruction to "land after", are you uncomfortable with a pilot accepting a land after clearance unless the pilot is absolutely certain the runway will be completely vacated or are you referring only to fields without air traffic?
PS - I am assuming Leicester is still A/G (it was the last time I was there). If so I agree with the other posters, the very least the Pitts should have done is announce his intentions. If Leicester now has AT then of course it is tea without bickies, the Pitts had no clearance and the pilot should be shot.
So what was your aircraft? I am genuinely interested as I have a little Pitts time; I cant think of any aircraft that would typically be used for student training that would outperform a Pitts; I appreciate you might not have being doing ab initio training.
I agree about runway ahead, but to be fair, you took your decision and the other pilot was entitled to take his. He accepted not using the full runway length and he alone was responsible for that decision.
I also agree that if you had turned and the Pitts "infringed" the runway after your turn then his airmanship was poor. If he had lined up and started his roll while you were backtracking and before you had completed your turn that might be a diffferent matter.
I am not sure what the aircraft did behind the Pitts is relevant - after all he was never going to be in a position to "take" an immediate.
Events such as this are always going to be a matter of judgement. You are an isntrutor so I would expect your judgement to be sound. I have seen novices very unhappy with the action of other pilots whereas in fact what the other pilot did was perfectly safe and not the least inconsiderate.
It is impossible to be critical about the events you describe for that reason because I can see circusmtances in which the Pitts pilot had not behaved unreasonably and equally, dependent on the Pilot's timing, the actions of a rather pushy and inconsiderate pilot. However, at least it is difficult to construct an argument that the other pilot's actions were actually dangerous, which is at least some help, while not an excuse for his actions.
You comment about aircraft landing while the runway is still occupied. I dont entirely follow your point. You will be familiar with the instruction to "land after", are you uncomfortable with a pilot accepting a land after clearance unless the pilot is absolutely certain the runway will be completely vacated or are you referring only to fields without air traffic?
PS - I am assuming Leicester is still A/G (it was the last time I was there). If so I agree with the other posters, the very least the Pitts should have done is announce his intentions. If Leicester now has AT then of course it is tea without bickies, the Pitts had no clearance and the pilot should be shot.
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I take the same view as Glush in that human nature will inevitably regard this type of "pushing in" as intensely annoying and unforgivably rude as far as the average Englishman is concerned. None of us would simply say nothing if someone barged in front of us in a queue at the Post Office or chip shop, and philosophical thoughts along the lines of "did it really do much to inconvenience me" cut little mustard. I have had exactly the same situation occur to me (ironically in reverse) at Beverly last year when an instructor with student barged past me completely unannounced, while I was still doing run up checks at the hold, and sailed off into the distance in front of me. (Marvellous demonstration of airmanship for an aspiring pilot) A few days later another instructor following my aircraft after a go around on an obstructed runway at Breighton, obviously decided that my idea of a conventional circuit was far too time consuming for him to bother with and he simply turned his following go around "circuit" into an orbit over the field directly behind me and a quick reposition back to finals while I was still downwind. Did it inconvenience me? no not strictly. Did it annoy me? Bloody right it did.
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glush, I think you are correct on both points.
If you've already backtracked & lined-up 20m from the HP entry and are pointing the right way about to commence the take-off, then the Pitts shouldn't have entered in front of you. I would maybe look at it as you were taking off, the Pitts was taxiing, therefore you have right of way, Leicester being A/G radio.
Where possible I would always use as much runway length as I could, 20m may not be a lot but as you say, every metre can be crucial in the event of an emergency. A few years ago the club where I worked had a guy put a PA28 in the hedge at the end of the runway following an EFATO , I think an extra 20m would have made the difference that day.
If you've already backtracked & lined-up 20m from the HP entry and are pointing the right way about to commence the take-off, then the Pitts shouldn't have entered in front of you. I would maybe look at it as you were taking off, the Pitts was taxiing, therefore you have right of way, Leicester being A/G radio.
Where possible I would always use as much runway length as I could, 20m may not be a lot but as you say, every metre can be crucial in the event of an emergency. A few years ago the club where I worked had a guy put a PA28 in the hedge at the end of the runway following an EFATO , I think an extra 20m would have made the difference that day.
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Flybymike, you are kidding, right? If you cannot takeoff on reaching the holding point because of checklists, run ups or whatever, park to the side and let the others through. Why make them wait? When did that airport become your property?
I am amazed also at pilots who think they can enter a runway then hold while completing checks, never mind any airplane on final. What if the landing airplane was a glider?
And how did that airplane landing behind you affect you, in any way? You have no idea if he had a problem with an engine, or a need to be on the ground without delay. If he had asked for the orbit at a controlled airport he would have been given it immediately and it still would have had no effect on your flight.
I have had radio problems at times, thinking I was transmitting or receiving when I was not, so I am not so quick to find fault with others. There is no place in aviation for impatience, yours or theirs. If the airport is not controlled, please share it sensibly.
Try to be more accommodating with others; give them some leeway. In turn they will do the same for you.
I am amazed also at pilots who think they can enter a runway then hold while completing checks, never mind any airplane on final. What if the landing airplane was a glider?
And how did that airplane landing behind you affect you, in any way? You have no idea if he had a problem with an engine, or a need to be on the ground without delay. If he had asked for the orbit at a controlled airport he would have been given it immediately and it still would have had no effect on your flight.
I have had radio problems at times, thinking I was transmitting or receiving when I was not, so I am not so quick to find fault with others. There is no place in aviation for impatience, yours or theirs. If the airport is not controlled, please share it sensibly.
Try to be more accommodating with others; give them some leeway. In turn they will do the same for you.
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glush
I can't help feeling that the real reason for this post is that you feel irritated at the guy in the Pitts getting off ahead of you however I think his airmanship might be a little suspect if no radio calls were made.
As you say the CCT was busy so the fact that the guy in the Pitts could get away while you were back tracking he did in fact ease the congestion.
I operate from an airfield that is very busy and I know that it takes low time students a long time to get the checks done properly and so position the aircraft in a way to avoid delays to traffic that arrives at the hold behind me.
Most of the congestion at small airfields is is due to students being taught to fly overly large CCT's and long approaches, some of the CCT's I have seen flown are so large that a 737 could fly a tighter CCT!
This thing about aircraft landing on a runway that is still occupied by another aircraft is pure rubbish. as long as the other aircraft is far enough along the runway for a safe landing to be made the why not "land after".
The worrying thing is that the powers that be in light aviation seem to find the "land after" unacceptable and issue a go around order at the drop of a hat, it seems that the only place that I now regularly get a land after clearance is at Gatwick.
As you say the CCT was busy so the fact that the guy in the Pitts could get away while you were back tracking he did in fact ease the congestion.
I operate from an airfield that is very busy and I know that it takes low time students a long time to get the checks done properly and so position the aircraft in a way to avoid delays to traffic that arrives at the hold behind me.
Most of the congestion at small airfields is is due to students being taught to fly overly large CCT's and long approaches, some of the CCT's I have seen flown are so large that a 737 could fly a tighter CCT!
This thing about aircraft landing on a runway that is still occupied by another aircraft is pure rubbish. as long as the other aircraft is far enough along the runway for a safe landing to be made the why not "land after".
The worrying thing is that the powers that be in light aviation seem to find the "land after" unacceptable and issue a go around order at the drop of a hat, it seems that the only place that I now regularly get a land after clearance is at Gatwick.
Surely a significant purpose of the 'Rules of the Air' is to keep order and maintain safety at airfields lacking an Air Traffic Service. The law nust be observed otherwise we have anarchy (and accidents). Too frequently there is an insidious decline into sloppy procedures.....the AAIB record the ensuing details!
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A and C
Landing on a runway which is already occupied by another aircraft is illegal, except where this is authorised by an air traffic controller. Notwithstanding the inherent risks (where full ATC is not provided) pilots who feel it is a convenient way of saving time (and can't be bothered going around) are leaving themselves open to prosecution.
Here are the relevant excerpts from the ANO:
(2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
(5) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.
Landing on a runway which is already occupied by another aircraft is illegal, except where this is authorised by an air traffic controller. Notwithstanding the inherent risks (where full ATC is not provided) pilots who feel it is a convenient way of saving time (and can't be bothered going around) are leaving themselves open to prosecution.
Here are the relevant excerpts from the ANO:
(2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
(5) Paragraphs (2) and (4) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome otherwise authorises the flying machine or glider.
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Flybymike, you are kidding, right? If you cannot takeoff on reaching the holding point because of checklists, run ups or whatever, park to the side and let the others through. Why make them wait? When did that airport become your property?
I am amazed also at pilots who think they can enter a runway then hold while completing checks,
And how did that airplane landing behind you affect you, in any way?
If I failed to make myself clear in my original post I apologise. If I did make myself clear, please read my posts more carefully before criticising them.
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He landed by cutting in front of me by flying an unannounced abbreviated circuit behind me (effectively an orbit above the airfield at a couple of hundred feet.)
It's not too bad if done by some aeros pilot who knows what he is doing. The problem (at Stapleford) is that it is done even by Cessna occupants who often have an instructor in the RHS. They are not so good and usually force the next person (on final) to go around.