vanHorck

I too highly respect IO540 for his knowledge and his actual private flying. I've met him in person here in Holland and he is real...

Rarely have a met such a knowledgeable GA pilot outside the ranks of old CFI's.

What's more , he is not afraid of saying things how he perceives them, and that makes his suggestions as to what kit works and what kit does not work a lot more valuable than the middle grey evaluations of commercial advertorial magazines.....

It's not without reason that I keep thinking that if IO540 were to start a blog, a lot of GA pilots would do well to subscribe, as we are short in our little hobby club of tested worthwhile opinions of people not afraid to speak their mind without falling in that PPRUNE trap: becoming pedants....

JEM60

Well, I have never met IO540, but I have invariably found his posts interesting, and his personal views are his own opinions,. I respect them, because he is entitled to them. His flying is way above my 200 hrs before I gave up [young family etc.] That was 33 years ago. I love to keep in touch, hence take 'Pilot' as I have always done, and I read avidly all the sensible post on this site, which include his and JW411. I would be be regarded as a sad person on here, 'cos being an early riser, I play a large amount of Flight Sim. It doesn't make me a bad person tho'

JW411

Katamarino and Others,

I think you have misinterpreted my comments. They were made in response to IO540's statement made in his posting #8:

"There is no social scene where I am based, unless one is a particularly sad case".

I and many of my friends, take exception to being described as "particularly sad cases". I certainly do not consider myself to be a "particularly sad case" and I don't think he has done himself any favours by making such a remark.

A lot of us are highly qualified in "heavier professional aviation" as well as being light aircraft enthusiasts.

AdamFrisch

I just read that the FAA - shook and wanting to look decisive after the Colgan crash - has implemented that from the year 2013 only ATP(L)'s with 1500hrs are allowed to fly right seat for airliners. So no more CPL 200 hr cadet straight hire things.

This has huge implications. Expect EASA to ape.

Let's look at those implications:

This will most likely create a shortage of pilots down the line, and many may fall by the wayside. The good thing is that this will probably mean that the airlines will have to start to pay better again. No more FO's earning $16.000/year like in the Colgan case. The bad thing is that even less people will now consider becoming pilots, and that's as bad for GA as it is for Airlines. I mean, who can possibly afford to slog around in a 172 for 1500hrs out of your own pocket, just to be able to get an interview?

Conjuring with this is the figures I read in Pilot magazine: according to AOPA, 30% less have become pilots in the last 10 years, compared to the 10 years before that. That's a massive drop.

Add to this the FAA and EASA's ever increasing nannyfication of all things flying, and the future looks really bleak. We have to get more people to start flying. It's a numbers game. But how do we do that?

Rod1

We did this at the bottom of page 3 / top of page 4 and this is probably not the right thread anyway.

Rod1

AN2 Driver

That is outright not feasible.

Typical knee jerk reaction. Yes, it might cause standards and wages to rise, but heavens, where should these people fly 1500 hours before they join the airlines? Most private pilots don't achieve this in their life time. In the US, where the way is via CFI and stuff like that maybe, but here? Forget it.

If this comes through, the airlines will hopefully make a stand. They will run out of personel within a few years. AND, it will lead to a further decline of hopefulls to start flying, as the step to the airlines will be too high for almost all of them.

SNS3Guppy

Adam, that particular bit of regulation is in the infancy stages, presently.

The US has never had a cadet scene. With the exception of the comair pilot academy and one by mesa...both fairly low quantity suppliers of people to cockpits of any kind, US airlines generally hire off the street. The "airlines" that did hire such low time pilots were generally bottom-end, small companies flying commuter or regional routes. The wages continue to be dismal and unlivable for such operators.

A brief period several years ago did see extremely low-time pilots hired (200 hours isn't enough to hold a commercial pilot certificate), but historically one has generally needed to be around 2,000+ hours to be competitive for even regional airline seats. In fact, I can remember the frustration of being unable to find work at 2,500 hours...which is still really a low experience level. Europeans consider 1,500 hours to be an experienced pilot...but such isn't the case in the US. In fact, for legacy carriers, one has generally needed about 4,000 to 5,000 hours to be competitive. My own employer, of late, is hiring pilots in the 10,000 to 20,000 hour range, all with heavy, international experience...and has no problem finding a seemingly unending supply of applicants.

Ah, the mythical pilot shortage. There has never been one, and won't be.

An airline cockpit isn't the be-all and end-all of career destinations. One can fly an entire career and never set foot in an airline cockpit and be perfectly happy...and there are more jobs in other types of cockpits than airline cockpits. The only part of the airline industry to be affected by raising the copilot hours requirement to 1,500 total time, will be the very entry-level positions at some commuter and regional airlines. To be competitive for a position anywhere else, pilots will need considerably more than that...forget any legal requirements. Nobody is competitive for a pilot position with that low a time, anyway.

The traditional route to an airline cockpit isn't flying your own airplane for 1,500 hours, and it isn't jumping into a cockpit at 200 hours, especially in the US. A pilot who shows up for his first job with 1,500 hours, all flown privately, is going to have a much harder time being considered for work than a pilot who shows up for the same interview with 1,500 hours of experience that has been gained professionally. Anybody can buy their hours; the only requirement is to pay for it. To have worked for someone else, where one had to be good enough to compete to get the job and to keep the job, as well as to pass the additional testing, training, and recurrent exams, checkrides, interviews, etc, is something that's significant to many employers. Professional training, especially by known training organizations, that's been ongoing through one's career to date, is valued.

With this in mind, traditionally in the US, pilots complete their basic flight training, and go on to become flight instructors. I didn't, initially; I became an agricultural aviator (crop duster). Others do powerline patrol, traffic watch, and aerial photography. Whatever can be found. With 500 hours under their belt, they become eligible for charter work, generally VFR single engine work. By the time they reach 1,200 hours, they can be doing multi-engine IFR work. Often pilots find themselves flying a clapped-out Twin Commander or Baron, or a Caravan. There are plenty of ways to get to 1,500 hours, and beyond, other than riding around in the cockpit of an airliner, and there really aren't that many pilots that end up in airliners with minimal experience.

As for changing conditions and higher wages with a minimum experience level of 1,500 hours, don't bank on it. 1,500 hours isn't much...it's the bare minimum for the ATP pilot certificate, which is the entry-level qualification to do that kind of flying, anyway. An ATP certificate and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee, and that's about it. The ATP is little more than a glorified instrument rating, added to a commercial pilot certificate. More of the same.

Wages will stay low for regionals. Many regional pilots, especially those at the bottom rungs of seniority, live at or below the poverty level. Don't expect to see operators make grand changes to that bottom line, and don't expect to see the paying public volunteer to pony up the cash to make up the difference. Passengers want cheap seats, and cheap seats often tend to lead to hiring cheap pilots. Those who take the positions see it as a trade-off to get somewhere else...the 1,500 hour pilot who gets a job flying right seat in an CRJ or an ERJ hasn't arrived. He or she has just got a toe in the door, and it's a long road.

In the US, the professional pilot will often fly 10 years or more before making any kind of real profit, and may go ten or fifteen before getting into a comfortable position. I think I was sixteen years before I got a turbine job...and that was just getting started. This isn't the case for everyone...but one shouldn't have false expectations. New pilots in the US tend to get good at being creative with rice and noodles, and tend to drive old, tired cars...and in some cases, live in them.

I've a friend, a captain for a national airline in the US who lives in a camper trailer in the parking lot of an international airport, when he's on the road. He has a home at home...but when he goes to his base, he lives in his car. In fact, I interviewed for an ATR-42 position once in which the pilot I would be replacing was living in his car in a hangar...and the management of the company, flying for one of the most recognized operators in the world...had no problems with that. That was a freight operation mind you, but I was coming to them with about 5,000 hours at the time. Think about that.

This doesn't have a lot to do with why private pilots join or don't join web boards, but does have to do with your post.

As the economy picks up, more people will begin to undertake flight training again. Until then, so long as it remains expensive, aviation will continue to be the leading-edge economic indicator that it is. Aviation is always overly sensitive to the razor-thin profit margin that marks airlines, corporate flight departments, etc, with a trickle-down effect to the local FBO where people begin training for fun, or a career. Whether one is trying to justify the expense as the building block for a career (hard to do when one knows it may take ten or fifteen years to begin to see a return on that investment, and that one is really investing in a decade or more of poverty), one still has to pay the bills.

The hardest part of flying has always been paying for it. In tough times when people are more concerned about feeding them selves than spending the exorbitant fees that are required today to fly privately, it's little wonder that fewer and fewer numbers are playing the game. Much as many of us see flying as a personal necessity, doing so privately still continues to be a lavish luxury which few can afford.

Ironically, many of us who fly professionally do so because we can't afford or couldn't afford to fly privately. If I had the cash, I'd have been quite happy in my own airplane, long ago. I couldn't afford to fly, so the only way to keep flying was to find someone to pay me to do it. My job continues to be my hobby to this day, or visa versa. In the US, there's a big sacrifice to be paid if one feels that passionately about their hobby to stick by it long enough to make it into a career...but this legislation not withstanding, there's nothing new under the sun. It won't significantly impact pilot numbers, and it won't significantly impact the numbers of those who fly for fun, either.

Most importantly to this thread, it won't have any impact at all on the number of people who visit web boards to talk about flying.

As an aside, JW411 is quite correct that a large number of professionals aviators are still very avid general aviation enthusiasts, as am I. My heart is wrapped up in the experimental world, which I've long considered the heart and soul of aviation (despite the industry's fancy trappings of high-tech and fast equipment). The home-building community, where innovation, experimentation, and thinking outside the box continues to reign supreme is really the hope of the future of the industry as a whole.

Airplanes like the Cirrus, big advances for the industry over the limited selection of "spam cans" that once were the mainstay, have their roots deep in the homebuilding community. The homebuilding community, of course, inherently wrapped in private flying. Even recent advances to the point of space flight, ala the Rutan achievement, were done by people who learned their trade making surf boards. The homebuilt community, the experimental arena, has no upward limits, and is accessible to all in one way or another. This brings together expert test pilots with new private pilots, it joins the airline pilot, the commercial pilot, the private pilot at the hip with a common interest.

It's not just experimentals, however. The same is true where one flies at the local FBO. My first instructor, when I was a civil air patrol cadet way back when, was an instructor for a major airline. His hobby was spending all his free time at the local airport teaching, helping, and a lot of the time simply sitting on the couch and talking flying. If you're talking airline pilots, corporate pilots, charter pilots, freight pilots, fire pilots, police pilots, or bush pilots, every bit as much as student pilots, recreational pilots, flight instructors, banner towers, parachutists, and anyone else you can dream up...we're all the heart and soul of general aviation. We're all linked in the same way, with the same sickness and addiction that draws us to what we do.

I recently flew with one of the highest time DC-3 pilots in the world. He now flies one of our airplanes, but his heart is very much in propellers and shuddering wings and dripping oil. He loves conventional gear (tailwheels). Our flying isn't particularly exciting, but like me, he finds it exhilarating because it's flying. Period. People like him, like me,and like anyone else who participates on a web board such as this or a dirty couch full of holes at the local FBO...love flying. We love to share, we love to mentor, we love to listen, we love to participate. I've known many who would simply come to the airport on their day off to hang out, even if they didn't fly, because it's where many of us are happiest, and it's not a bad place to be.

People hang out on boards such as this because they have an interest. That interest is hard to maintain for some when they can't fly at all, but especially for people like that, boards such as this are important places where they can recharge their aviation batteries and keep some hope alive. More people will start flying when more people have more money. Until then, those that will participate on a board such as this (or any other) will, and those who won't....

Gipsy Queen

I got my papers in 1953 - still have the cotton helmet and Gosport tube - and did my multi-engine on a Gemini a couple of years later. From this you will deduce that I'm an old fart but this does perhaps allow me a broader perspective.

In my estimation, people have dropped off simply because flying is very far from being as much fun as it once was. Since the greatest prerequisite for doing anything is to enjoy doing it, there must be a simple correlation between fun and participation. And the two party poopers here are beauracracy and technical complexity. I suspect this view is supported by the degree of fun derived from private flying to be in direct proportion to the age of the aircraft - pilots of pre-war machines have a whale of a time.

In the old days - here he goes again! - if the engine started and the weather was acceptable, you waved away the chocks and went. A friend recently trying to visit me at my local strip had to cancel as the transponder was inop and this evidently was a bigger deal than just not being able to squawk because it interfaced with TCAS and the MFD and goodness knows what other gizmos in the alphabet soup, the absence of which did not prevent the a/c from flying.

To be frank, if I was still involved in private flying, I would jack it in too - I just cannot see that the restrictions of airspace controls and attendant reporting, glass panels and all the legal mumbo-jumbo now drowning what used to be a simple pursuit, is worth the candle.

I mean, can you imagine carrying enough crystals to cover three decimal places?

But I agree with Guppy's view that these boards do offer a useful, albeit vicarious, contact with the remnants of a world with which a lot of us were once familiar. Yes, I too have fond memories of holed and cigarette-burned flying club sofas. I also remember, but with less affection, the Brylcreem-lined leather flying helmets hung outside the CFI's office.

Gippo.

Pilot DAR

,

Well, except for the fact that chocks are a little too advanced for my aerodrome, have faith, flying in its purest form is still alive!

My other aircraft does not have any avionics whatever, and I rarely bother carrying the portable radio, there's no one I have to, or want to talk to anyway! It looked nice up there today, so I flew it for an hour, including more than a dozen landings on five different surfaces, and enjoyed simple aviation. I stopped at a friend's and took him for a flight.

It's been about 25 years since I flew a plane in the UK, and it did seem a little more concentrated than I'm used to here at home. But I can't help but wonder if some of the effort devoted to posts here, were directed along the proper path toward the appropriate authorities, would things not ease a little for those who feel the restrictions?

When I'm unhappy with the actions of the regulator, I start writing, and attending meetings. I have rarely been dissapointed that the system will not consider what the "little guy" has to say. It does not always go my way, but it always seems at least fair.

When necessary, I fight for the privilage of flying, and I exercise it regularly. I use my aircraft for the commuity good often, and have not ever known an unkind word about it. Within 10 miles of me there are 11 private runways, and one airport. They all seem to have equally good relations with the community as far as I know.

I agree that we need to inspire young people. A part of that inspiration must be to demonstrate that you really have to want something to make it happen. Flying your computer around won't cut it for long. You've got to devote youself to it for real. Which of us long time aviators here has not had to devote themselves for years? We also have to show that we don't just sit back and watch regulation fence us in. We participate in the process, and flex our wings. We go to the airport, and pitch in. We help at the flyins, and give rides if we are able. As my aviator uncle of East Budleigh used to tell me: "Don't break the law, change it!". If people want change, they have to make it happen, not just wait for the other guy - he's waiting for you! Newcomers need to see this in action....

I hope that I can inspire some young people the way I was inspired 40 years ago. I used to bicycle 11 miles to the local airport, just to look for something I could do. My energy was quickly harnessed, and better yet, it was with helicopters. I can think of four active pilots who all started flying because I gave them their first flight. I hope there are others, of whom I am unaware. I'm not done yet....

We need to demonstrate that we, general aviation, are a unified team of people with a common interest, which we welcome newcomers to embrace. The in fighting presents a poor, and fragmented image of us. Would the newcomers here read some of the posts, and think we're a team? Perhaps not! A family who jab from time to time - okay. Venom, I'm not interested...

I invite people onto PPRuNe, with the promise that once they sift through some tomfoolery, there is a wealth of wisdom and experience to be drawn upon here.

By the way IO, I enjoyed your email about your flying the TBM. It took me back to my Cheyenne days! Thanks for thinking of me!

Crash one

If I am to consider myself reprimanded I would like to clarify the facts. I never at any time questioned IO540s credentials, in fact I admire them, I was only asking why the subject of heavy metal should be discussed on a forum primarily concerned with LAA, BMAA types. I have never been jealous of another person or their achievements in my life. Also, not that I was specifically accused of such, I have never tried to claim credit for achievements that I did not deserve (I am no Walter Mitty). I do not profess to know the intricacies of GPS either, nor am I ashamed of that. What I actually said was, If someone asks a question in all innocence they are immediatly jumped on by the experts who seem to take great delight in pointing out how stupid the question was. If I have offended IO540 then I apologise, but I do not think I deserve the title of jealous child.

vanHorck

Luckily IO540 does not belong to the pedants who take great delight in pointing out how stupid posters can be. Although he can be harsh in his criticism, for such a delight one needs to look a little further....

Back soon from the Middle East, I think you'll find IO more of a knowledgeable and likable Disney character!

Lister Noble

I went flying for an hour and a half this morning,L4 Cub,hand swing start,jump in ,run up against the chocks,hop out ,remove chocks and bimbled around East Anglia just for fun.
That's just why I learned to fly
Nowadays I don't post as much as I used to when I first started flying just over 4 years ago,I think the reason is when I first had my licence,and also more so when learning as I had lots of questions that I was not always able to ask my instructor as we only flew three days a week.
I never felt intimidated but now have less questions to pose.
I must be getting older 'cos I think I said something like this earlier?
Lister

IO540

JW411 - of course we know each other over a cup of tea in the airport restaurant and I would never suggest you and the half a dozen others that sit around are the "sad scene" I referred to. Plus I meet up with others there. But that is about half a dozen to a dozen people - at a pretty busy GA airport. I would guess that 95-99% of the people who are based there do not hang around at all socially. The virtual closure of the 2nd restaurant killed off most of the "community" which was there, too. This is a very long way from the kind of vibrant social scene which would draw people to consider flying to start with, or indeed to remain flying after they get their PPL, when nearly everybody is turfed out and left to fend to themselves.

C1 - I only posted that stuff for fun, as a performance comparison. The Jetprop and the TBM are firmly "GA" and the 737 was just a sim (as I posted). I thought that a fantastic 300-euro 737-full-sim deal would be of interest to others, too. Performance comparisons are highly relevant. I have never flown a Tiger Moth and would leave it to others 100% to post on such a thread, for example. I have also never claimed to have done something I haven't done, nor have I used the rather common forum phraseology which can be "so easily" taken as meaning I have done more.

Sorry for the delay in replying; I am in Jordan and had no internet for the past few days. Back now at a decent hotel

Contacttower

I often read a lot of what is being said on here even if I don't actually post anything. I discovered PPRuNe shortly after completing my PPL in 2006 and I found it a massive help, in fact I learnt more about flying in general and all the ancillary aspects of it from here than I did during my PPL course. It meant that I was no longer at the mercy of the rather variable knowledge of my various instructors and it really opened my eyes to the aviation world out there.

After I passed my PPL no one suggested to me what to do next, the possibility of flying to other countries in different aircraft seemed remote and because most of my instructors were not of a long standing GA background there did not seem to be much help available in that respect. PPRuNe filled that gap and I think accelerated my confidence in flying, making me aware of things that I wasn't before.

The question of why people stop flying is easily answered I think and although the title question of this thread is harder...I assume there is some link. All I'd say is that I'm not sure why experienced pilots are leaving, but I wish they wouldn't.

mary meagher

There is a fine tradition in the Western Hemisphere of basic flying for fun, which includes hanging around the clubhouse exchanging war stories.

Can't resist sharing a simple summary of my flying this day, not far from Oxford (the original Oxford, in England). Arrived at the gliding club (oh no,here she goes again) and helped drag out the toys. As I need to fly these days with a safety pilot, snaffled an old buddy and he sat in the back seat while I flew it up the wire, and at 1,300 did a half turn spin just for the hell of it, and a circuit (final turn only slightly lower than it should have been).And then until 3.30 made myself useful by retrieving gliders back to the launchpoint, etc.

At last a K-13 became available - it was a very busy day. The T-21 open cockpit glider had launched just before us, it was gaining height impressively.
We connected with a reasonable thermal over the town, which just kept getting stronger and stronger, broke off the climb 200' below cloud base to maintain a good lookout for the 25 or 30 gliders having a ball local soaring.
Five to six knot thermals under every likely cloud, and some useful streets.
Began to feel guilty after 40 minutes of joy, realising somebody else might like a turn before the day went flat, so we had to throw it all away with a few spins down from 4,000'. Winch launch cost £6, glider cost 30 pence a minute. Work it out.

My only problem is that I havn't found a sensible gliding website to visit.
Glider pilot net isn't really sensible. Perhaps the PPRuNe people would consider setting up a forum just for us? There are a few who post on private flying from time to time, but it seems to emphasise power.

I do both, actually, but perhaps you can guess what I like best of all.....

eharding

Ooooh - you're so sly.

Call me Nostradamus, but I'd say that after 6 months of the Pprune Glider Forum ("Empowering the Unpowered") quietly thriving over the winter without the rest of us really noticing, come next spring, you'll announce a 'competition' weekend, and 800 Glider forumites are tasked with posting on as many and varied Pprune forums as they can - the further from topic the better - with points being awarded posting on a forum with the maximum distance from the home forum as possible. The only rule is you have to post in a font that is *really* difficult to see.

The rest of us won't be able to get a word in edgeways for the whole weekend.

On the other hand, it would mean 800 new forum members....which might shut IO540 up for a while.

IO540

Isn't there a gliding forum already? The gliding community is far and away the best organised part of European GA, with by far the most political support at every level.

chrisN

There are at least three gliding forum places, one of which Mary has referred to above. Dealing with that first, it is on gliderpilot.net, and has two fora within it. One is “UK recreational aviation soaring” (“uras”) which is now intended for serious discussion ( Glider Pilot Network > uk.rec.aviation.soaring ). The other is “urasb” which is intended for banter (hences the additional “b”).

Unlike Mary, I find it quite useful. Just a matter of taste I suppose. It is almost, but not entirely, subscribed to by UK glider pilots.

The predecessor to that is an American-based site, with a mainly American but to some extent worldwide constituency of contributors, "ras" - recreational aviation soaring.
( Discussions - rec.aviation.soaring | Google Groups ) It is one of many recreational aviation fora on Google groups. There is also a link to it on gliderpilot.net.

The third area I have in mind was set up by a British expat who now lives in America and flies gliders there. He used to be a significant contributor on ras, and still occasionally posts there, but was evidently dissatisfied in some way with that and set up his own group of fora. I look at it occasionally, but it doesn't seem to be very well used. ( Silentflight.com )

There may be others that I don't know about, for example I strongly suspect that there is one in Germany.

Regarding I0540's last point, about organisation and political clout, I don't know exactly what we do differently from anybody else in general aviation. What I have noticed, when attending meetings or venues where volunteers are required from air sports or general aviation participants, there seem to be a higher proportion of glider pilots who come forward than others. I have no idea why this should be the case.

Just as one example, when I was at a Royal Aero club parliamentary committee meeting one day, everyone round the table was asked to introduce themselves for the benefit of one or two new people, and say where they came from. More than half the people who were attending that day and had volunteered to work on that committee were glider pilots, all known to me personally, because we have been working together there and elsewhere over many years for the common good as we saw it.

I saw the same thing at the FAI, which is the world governing body for air sports. I first went there as the UK delegate from the Royal Aero Club (not for gliding particularly) to attend the newly-formed FAI environmental commission. Once again, I found most of the people who volunteered to work on that commission were glider pilots, though some also flew power.

Chris N

mary meagher

I was hoping to find a well displayed and intelligent site of discussion, just like on PPRuNe "private flying" forum, but o dear....

On clicking onto the "discussions, rec.av.soaring" site, the first items that turn up are

See Hot Sexy Star Sex Videos
Cheap UGG Boots wholesale.....
and goes on to
Need undamaged landing gear for PZL Krosno
Indoor Skydiving,
and How to avoid soaring into Mexico by mistake.....

Mostly it looks like a string of classified adverts, for sale, wanted, advice needed on how to replace Blaniks and how do I get my fancy instruments to work properly! Okay, on PPRuNe forums we do tend to the odd bit of character assasination and scorn, but on the whole the discussions, displayed in full and easily readable, are interesting and informative. I am sure that when the recession recedes enough to make private flying affordable once more, the number of knowlegeable contributors will improve.

Rod1

“with by far the most political support at every level.”

Political power in European aviation is an interesting subject. There are a number of alliances and some groups “control” certain key comities. If I were to pick who gets what they want most often then it would be French micro pilots. The French almost always get what they want in EASA.

Rod1