A lot of pilots leaving the forums
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The LAA's firum is pretty dead because if was 'moderated to death' - as a deliberate policy.
If the demographic of flying is middle aged plus it tends to be rather older in the LAA. It has also been a hotbed of infighting and politics over the years. The present crew are not too bad but whenan organisation decides to 'rebrand' itself and simply springs the decision on its members it makes the organisation look like the Vatican...
If the demographic of flying is middle aged plus it tends to be rather older in the LAA. It has also been a hotbed of infighting and politics over the years. The present crew are not too bad but whenan organisation decides to 'rebrand' itself and simply springs the decision on its members it makes the organisation look like the Vatican...
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The fact is that the majority of topics have been done to death and the postings get distilled down to the same old subjects with the same people pontificating on them.
When anyone has a different opinion they are generally pounced on and beaten into submission, anyone who stands against them then has the usual whispering campaigns etc started against them.
And there are a couple of posters legendary for behind the scenes antics of trying to discredit those they have a grudge against. It is is boring and off putting for many people to be involved in that sort of behaviour and so they drift off onto other things.
When anyone has a different opinion they are generally pounced on and beaten into submission, anyone who stands against them then has the usual whispering campaigns etc started against them.
And there are a couple of posters legendary for behind the scenes antics of trying to discredit those they have a grudge against. It is is boring and off putting for many people to be involved in that sort of behaviour and so they drift off onto other things.
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“Have to say that the LAA's own forum is very quiet, only a few new topics each week. Not sure why, perhaps everyone is busy in the garage building?”
The old PFA forum was quite lively, but the new LAA one is dead. Most moved over to Flyer which is often the best place to ask LAA type questions due to the numbers posting.
Rod1
The old PFA forum was quite lively, but the new LAA one is dead. Most moved over to Flyer which is often the best place to ask LAA type questions due to the numbers posting.
Rod1
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There seems to be far less interesting discussion on Flyer than I can remember in a long time. I think Bose is right, I find myself visiting less and less - perhaps too much has now been done before.
Thread Starter
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It has also been a hotbed of infighting and politics over the years.
In the days of Usenet, rudeness was common (long before I got onto the internet) but somehow people did not mind. Usenet remained fairly resilient, until it got trashed by massive spam issues. For some reason a lot of people do mind rudeness in web forums.
I remember as a kid that aviation and airplanes were magic.
And in Darwin we saw a feast of different types passing through. A B17 Flying Fortress, more USAF Globemasters, F84 Thunderjets, Boeing 707's, Hastings, Tudors, and a weird French double tail double decker Bregeut. A spotters paradise. Not forgetting of course Lincolns coming in on three engines which was SOP. Mustangs and Vampires, Sabres on exercises, Neptunes - the station Wirraway even (until I pranged it) And the local Darwin aeroclub had Tiger Moths, and a Hornet Moth (I pranged that a little bit, too)
No wonder there were so many aviation enthusiasts then. Not too many now.
Moderator
It sure is less enticing to read and post, when PPRuNe keeps telling me that I have exceeded my maximum number of posts, and I have to log in and pass a colour vision test, before I can even read. Then, when I do post, it gives me an error message, and forgets what I typed in.
Thank goodness for "control c", so I don't totally loose my thoughts!
Thank goodness for "control c", so I don't totally loose my thoughts!
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If you need a sensible discussion about a topic, there are much better forums with a higher proportion of people who know what they're talking about
Members-only forum. Focused on IFR but plenty of non-IFR discussion of aircraft (from light singles up) and also VFR flight.
brgds
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Too many self opinionated willy waivers simply turn off the average flyer from posting anything!
As has been said many times, "I'll get my hat ..."
Thank goodness for "control c", so I don't totally loose my thoughts!
FP.
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What with technoblurbling willy wavers, spelling police, pissing contestants I'm not surprised pilots are leaving. Perhaps IO540 can explain what flying jetprops & 737s has to do with private flying? & when someone asks about setting an altimeter to a GPS alt, he gets shot to bits with geoids, sirf chipsets & crap about what dire consequences await at 20000ft! I'm quite sure he & the rest of us are well aware that an altimeter reads pressure difference & a GPS uses geographic triangulation in some form, we don't need told that!! nor do we need told that we can get a QNH from any corner shop. Provided the wireless is working!! It doesn't encourage the asking of what, to the asker, is a reasonable question.Rant over.
And for some reason I can't seperate paragraphs on this stupid tablet thing!
And for some reason I can't seperate paragraphs on this stupid tablet thing!
I don't think that IO540 has ever been near a "Jet prop or 737" in his entire life and is not likely so to do.
All he's got is a basic FAA CPL with an IR (unlike his very sad friends).
All he's got is a basic FAA CPL with an IR (unlike his very sad friends).
Moderator
I can't seperate paragraphs on this stupid tablet thing!
basic FAA CPL
IO540,
I have to say that I find pprune still one of the most valuable forums around and I spend quite a lot of my online time reading here and not only this section. I find that this here section is a bit strong on the UK side, but that is not a problem for me. Reading here and also the support if you do ask a question is extremely helpful.
On the topic of why GA declines, there are many theories. All right and wrong. I reckon however, there is a fundamental change in perception of aviation per se and GA in particular, which has happened over the last few years and which has demystified flying as a almost metaphysical experience for the normal Joe Public out there. Having done that, it has discouraged and in many instances actively kept folks from pursuing the dream because they feel peer pressure from left/green activists who today often are regarded more of the role models as an airliner captain was 20 years ago.
A bit off track but having been working for one of the classic airlines which has disappeared, with the demise of people like Pan Am, Swissair and other seemingly unthinkables, as well as the constant and persistent demontage of the image of an airline pilot from a hero worshiped entity to a bus driver today by the media and the opponents of anything running on gasoline has had a tremendous impact. Many youngsters who were plane nuts in the old days today find themselfs attacked from all fronts if they wish to pursue their dream. Rather than being supported as one of the most desirable professions it has become a too ordinary one for people to care.
I reckon this has had a tremendous impact on youngsters wishing to go the whole way. Likewise, GA is today regarded by a large majority of Joe Publics as an expensive playboy pasttime. With this, untrue as it is, comes envy and with envy come anti airport leagues, anti noise protest and murder threats over the net and sometimes personal if one engages in the condemmable habit of moving fuel to noise converters around the countryside. Unlike before, when people looked up in fascination at a passing plane, many look up in anger today.
Pre the Internet and PC age, young kids had their dreams based on books and fantasy. We built airplane models and looked at them or "flew" them of the kitchen table. Now, kids run comprehensive and well developed flight simulations on their personal computers. Quite some reach an astonishing degree of knowledge and motivation doing this and are feverish in waiting for the first time they can go to an airport and have a go at the real thing. Having bin in that particular branch of aviation for over 20 years now as a sideline of work and also because I wanted to pass on knowledge to the youngsters, I know very well what is out there. And I get 17-18 year olds who finally scrape together the money for a flying lesson coming back and throwing the towel the very day they have been waiting for. They get confronted with a £17-20k budget needed to get a PPL, they get often enough laughed out of the instruction room at the mention of how they got to be motivated, if not shouted down not least in forums right here, where the word "simmer" is nothing better than words which need censoring not to fall off. IMHO there are far too many airport kings and self appointed experts around who will, instead of picking up where these kids started and show them how to convert their skills and knowledge to the "real" thing, will laugh and shout them out of the office.
Cost and the generally negative outlook is another thing why many people today rather book another all inclusive holiday than to take flying lessons. Some of this also is present here. If you hear how professional pilots in this PPRUNE forum often enough talk about their profession, then does anyone wonder why on earth people won't bother to consider this job? I guess the muttering was the same before the Internet, but it was internal and often good natured banter. However, if I read people in here who openly state they hate their jobs, then who wonders why someone might pick another career?
In GA, the same kind of stuff can be seen as well. We had a discussion in our local forum the other day about an airport which is threatened by closure and a good 60% of the participants would resign and say well, that is life why bother. They are tired of fighting and they stop and do other things where they don't hear every time they mention what they do that they are egoist playboys with too much money.
I took up flying again after a 7 year break last fall and I am damn glad I did. But I also have noted the changes. It's a different world now. There are ups and downs, but mostly downs and most of them in terms of a huge inflation. Flying is becoming the rich kid playboy sport many take it for these days, because politicians think so and they decide in the long rund what we need to pay for EASA part M, part whatsoever and hugely increased training costs.
I guess what we can do to counter this is to go back to our roots in terms of being ambassadors of aviation, every single one of us. Take kids for rides, take friends, convince them that it's not a "daring circus act" but an every day event a darn side less dangerous than riding a bike. And for heavens sake get off the high horse and smash the door into the faces of the computer kids of all ages who knock on flight school doors or try their luck in forums. Of course we need to tell them if they are wrong on something but that can be done without telling them to f.-. o--- and go back to play computers. You know what, they might just do that. Of my flock which I personally know over the last 15 years or so who have started with flight simulation, at least 20-30 of them fly today for real. One is a 747 skipper, several others fly in orange and other jets around Europe. And several have ppl's and enjoy life in the Alps.
As long as we are civil to each other, as the huge majority of folks here are, as long as we take newbies seriously and kindly, we'll get more quality posters back here. And we might get some more to fly.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
I have to say that I find pprune still one of the most valuable forums around and I spend quite a lot of my online time reading here and not only this section. I find that this here section is a bit strong on the UK side, but that is not a problem for me. Reading here and also the support if you do ask a question is extremely helpful.
On the topic of why GA declines, there are many theories. All right and wrong. I reckon however, there is a fundamental change in perception of aviation per se and GA in particular, which has happened over the last few years and which has demystified flying as a almost metaphysical experience for the normal Joe Public out there. Having done that, it has discouraged and in many instances actively kept folks from pursuing the dream because they feel peer pressure from left/green activists who today often are regarded more of the role models as an airliner captain was 20 years ago.
A bit off track but having been working for one of the classic airlines which has disappeared, with the demise of people like Pan Am, Swissair and other seemingly unthinkables, as well as the constant and persistent demontage of the image of an airline pilot from a hero worshiped entity to a bus driver today by the media and the opponents of anything running on gasoline has had a tremendous impact. Many youngsters who were plane nuts in the old days today find themselfs attacked from all fronts if they wish to pursue their dream. Rather than being supported as one of the most desirable professions it has become a too ordinary one for people to care.
I reckon this has had a tremendous impact on youngsters wishing to go the whole way. Likewise, GA is today regarded by a large majority of Joe Publics as an expensive playboy pasttime. With this, untrue as it is, comes envy and with envy come anti airport leagues, anti noise protest and murder threats over the net and sometimes personal if one engages in the condemmable habit of moving fuel to noise converters around the countryside. Unlike before, when people looked up in fascination at a passing plane, many look up in anger today.
Pre the Internet and PC age, young kids had their dreams based on books and fantasy. We built airplane models and looked at them or "flew" them of the kitchen table. Now, kids run comprehensive and well developed flight simulations on their personal computers. Quite some reach an astonishing degree of knowledge and motivation doing this and are feverish in waiting for the first time they can go to an airport and have a go at the real thing. Having bin in that particular branch of aviation for over 20 years now as a sideline of work and also because I wanted to pass on knowledge to the youngsters, I know very well what is out there. And I get 17-18 year olds who finally scrape together the money for a flying lesson coming back and throwing the towel the very day they have been waiting for. They get confronted with a £17-20k budget needed to get a PPL, they get often enough laughed out of the instruction room at the mention of how they got to be motivated, if not shouted down not least in forums right here, where the word "simmer" is nothing better than words which need censoring not to fall off. IMHO there are far too many airport kings and self appointed experts around who will, instead of picking up where these kids started and show them how to convert their skills and knowledge to the "real" thing, will laugh and shout them out of the office.
Cost and the generally negative outlook is another thing why many people today rather book another all inclusive holiday than to take flying lessons. Some of this also is present here. If you hear how professional pilots in this PPRUNE forum often enough talk about their profession, then does anyone wonder why on earth people won't bother to consider this job? I guess the muttering was the same before the Internet, but it was internal and often good natured banter. However, if I read people in here who openly state they hate their jobs, then who wonders why someone might pick another career?
In GA, the same kind of stuff can be seen as well. We had a discussion in our local forum the other day about an airport which is threatened by closure and a good 60% of the participants would resign and say well, that is life why bother. They are tired of fighting and they stop and do other things where they don't hear every time they mention what they do that they are egoist playboys with too much money.
I took up flying again after a 7 year break last fall and I am damn glad I did. But I also have noted the changes. It's a different world now. There are ups and downs, but mostly downs and most of them in terms of a huge inflation. Flying is becoming the rich kid playboy sport many take it for these days, because politicians think so and they decide in the long rund what we need to pay for EASA part M, part whatsoever and hugely increased training costs.
I guess what we can do to counter this is to go back to our roots in terms of being ambassadors of aviation, every single one of us. Take kids for rides, take friends, convince them that it's not a "daring circus act" but an every day event a darn side less dangerous than riding a bike. And for heavens sake get off the high horse and smash the door into the faces of the computer kids of all ages who knock on flight school doors or try their luck in forums. Of course we need to tell them if they are wrong on something but that can be done without telling them to f.-. o--- and go back to play computers. You know what, they might just do that. Of my flock which I personally know over the last 15 years or so who have started with flight simulation, at least 20-30 of them fly today for real. One is a 747 skipper, several others fly in orange and other jets around Europe. And several have ppl's and enjoy life in the Alps.
As long as we are civil to each other, as the huge majority of folks here are, as long as we take newbies seriously and kindly, we'll get more quality posters back here. And we might get some more to fly.
Best regards
AN2 Driver.
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I personally don't frequent this parish these days as I find it has changed over time.
I feel it used to be more of a UK based flying fraternity where people knew each other perhaps more personally and actually met up at events. Now whenever I come here I find that the topics are mainly links to crashes (with the inevitable amateur AAIB brigade pulling on their yellow tabards), questions about tedious maintenance regulations and the good old debates that seem to never tire about knee boards, GPS's and watches.
I wonder how many people in this particular forum are actual flyers. My guess is that proportionally they have reduced markedly in the last 10 years. Reading many of the posts I can't help wondering if a lot of the contributors these days fly Cessnas created by Hewlett Packard as opposed to Textron!
And, before I am flamed, grilled, poached or fried for mis-spelling or upsetting any sensitive souls (for which I am truly sorry if I have), I shall go back to being a reader again as opposed to a contributor!!!
I feel it used to be more of a UK based flying fraternity where people knew each other perhaps more personally and actually met up at events. Now whenever I come here I find that the topics are mainly links to crashes (with the inevitable amateur AAIB brigade pulling on their yellow tabards), questions about tedious maintenance regulations and the good old debates that seem to never tire about knee boards, GPS's and watches.
I wonder how many people in this particular forum are actual flyers. My guess is that proportionally they have reduced markedly in the last 10 years. Reading many of the posts I can't help wondering if a lot of the contributors these days fly Cessnas created by Hewlett Packard as opposed to Textron!
And, before I am flamed, grilled, poached or fried for mis-spelling or upsetting any sensitive souls (for which I am truly sorry if I have), I shall go back to being a reader again as opposed to a contributor!!!
Crashone and JW411
To be honest, your posts come across as those of jealous children. I don't know it IO540 has flown a Jetprop, but I have read an extremely interesting account of his recent flight in a TBM Turboprop that is, I think, rather higher-end than a Jetprop. With an FAA CPL/IR you can technically right-seat an airliner, and "Captain" a very large range of interesting aircraft, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is there.
It's a shame that some of the more technical discussions, such as GPS, are too complicated for you to understand; but there are those of us who can understand them, and find them quite useful and interesting.
IO540 does a lot of incredible flying, all of which is private; I couldn't care less if he's in a powered parachute or a B52, if he's flying it privately it seems relevant. He puts in a huge amount of time and effort to making his knowledge available to others and I have benefited a great deal from some of what he writes on his website, particularly in planning my own private flights from Rotterdam to Tunisia and other interesting places; he also seems to perform a fair amount of advocacy on behalf of all GA.
So tell me; apart from jealous and uninformed little whining posts, what do you contribute to match that? Posts like yours are exactly what we could do without.
To be honest, your posts come across as those of jealous children. I don't know it IO540 has flown a Jetprop, but I have read an extremely interesting account of his recent flight in a TBM Turboprop that is, I think, rather higher-end than a Jetprop. With an FAA CPL/IR you can technically right-seat an airliner, and "Captain" a very large range of interesting aircraft, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is there.
It's a shame that some of the more technical discussions, such as GPS, are too complicated for you to understand; but there are those of us who can understand them, and find them quite useful and interesting.
IO540 does a lot of incredible flying, all of which is private; I couldn't care less if he's in a powered parachute or a B52, if he's flying it privately it seems relevant. He puts in a huge amount of time and effort to making his knowledge available to others and I have benefited a great deal from some of what he writes on his website, particularly in planning my own private flights from Rotterdam to Tunisia and other interesting places; he also seems to perform a fair amount of advocacy on behalf of all GA.
So tell me; apart from jealous and uninformed little whining posts, what do you contribute to match that? Posts like yours are exactly what we could do without.