The same old rant, different year, different location
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
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WWW:. .. ."Standards today are actually higher than in decades gone by????". .. .This thread is discussing how to "FLY " aircraft not how to follow SOP's that have been dumbed down to the lowest common demominator.. .. .So how come in the sixties and seventies we had to be very profficient in landing and taking off from sand beaches, arctic eskers, ice runways and unprepared snow surfaces flying DC3's DC6's, Twin Otters and the like in every type of nasty weather the Arctic can produce?? Sometimes the x/winds were off the page never mind the chart?. .. .Your statement got me to thinking that maybe,just maybe you have misspoke on this one?. .. .As an example I was wondering how in hell I would try and persuade an Airbus computer generated flight system to do some of the manouvers we regularly got the " old " birds to do? . .. .P.S. WWW. .. .For navigation we used the astro compass, dead reckoning and if we were really lucky an ADF approach at the destination. ( Usually with a 25 mile receive range as the beacons were very poor. ). .. .................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
Join Date: Nov 2001
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WWW,. .. .I bit un-sporting of you to have my post removed, without even having the decency of mailing me to tell me so, but after looking at your profile, i can see why.. .. .Yes you did overstep the mark. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />
Jetscream - unsure if I ever removed a posting of yours. Refresh my memory. . .. .We generally don't email people whos posting we interfere with. We don't have the time or inclination.. .. .I was referring to private GA standards Cat Driver.. .. .WWW
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WWW,. .. .I still can't believe your digging yourself a deeper hole, you really do believe that anyone without a commercial job in the right hand seat of a 737 is a lesser pilot than you, don't you?. .. .You poor man, i am sure there's a cure somewhere!. .. .It sounds like operating the radio on short haul 737's has had a profound effect on your outlook to GA.. .. .Still, each to their own, i am sure your a jolly nice chap really.. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Ludwig,. .. .I have never retorted on this or any forum before in this manner but a post so pompous as that on page 1 of this thread, that requests replies "discuss" should get a reply that reflects the vast number of pilots who fly in the GA sector for fun, many of whom have thousands of "hands on flying" hours and demonstrate exemplary flying skills, yet do not have a commercial job. Not everyone learning to fly wants to be a boeing driver.. .. .As it was pointed out earlier, www overstepped the mark. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
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Ok. If the next few posts are not 'on-topic' the whole lot is going to be binned. I have warned you at least now havn't I. Such a shame to see threads go this way.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .No more arguing, e-mail the person you disagree with if you want to continue the argument.
Not so N, but still FG
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Hear, hear, Big Red L. I am sorry to see a very few people being consistently rude to and about WWW, who generally posts in a civilised and informative manner. Some people (same ones?) keep having a go at BEagle as well. I assume that they will not be deterred from making helpful contributions to this forum.. .. .The issue of whether or not GA flying standards are improving is an interesting one. Biennial instructor check outs must help a bit. I sometimes wonder if there could be a more formal structure for continuous development after licence issue. Some PPLs choose to expose their flying to instructor scrutiny on a more or less regular basis, by getting additional ratings, differences training etc. Others disappear from the instructional radar screen until they have to do their biennial. People would no doubt complain of further regulation, but why not, for example, require the instructor hour for a new PPL to be within the second six months after licence issue? I could make myself even more unpopular by suggesting that the minimum hours for licence maintenance should be increased, but had better stop and get my tin hat.. .. .As for landing flat, I too was guilty of this in the past, and found that a tailwheel checkout did wonders for my trike landings. Imaginative flying clubs which have taildraggers available could perhaps do worse than offer PPL students the option of a few dual tailwheel hours as part of the course.
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Can't possibily be JAA licence holders exhibiting bad airmanship, must be an Evil FAA licence holder.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .(Sorry Big Red L, just thought we needed a bit of humor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> )
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Can't possibily be JAA licence holders exhibiting bad airmanship, must be an Evil FAA licence holder.... . .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .It's a FAA certificate! The Yankees consider it almost a born right to fly, and the guvmint is not in a position to 'licence' you to do so. That's why they give you a 'certificate' which simply proves you have met the very high standards required to exercise your right.. .. .Yeh, it doesn't totally make sense, but really does show how basic attitudes to flying are different in the two continents. These attitudes are also apparent on these forums. I can generally tell who is from FAA-land and JAA-land without even looking at the profiles.. .. .Anyway. I am glad to see than from my disinterested reading of the new JAR PPL requirements, Europe is getting closer to the standards in the USA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .The best way to be a safe pilot is to be current, fly at least once a week. That's far easier where its cheap, flight schools are happy to see you and they don't have their head up their posteriors. The regulations are based upon safety AND common sense, and are for ALL users of the Airspace System. In the US we are all taxpayers and we all own the air.. .. .Even in the NE of America where the weather is far worse than in the UK, PPLs remain current because its far easier to get an IR in the US. In the UK its a nightmare.. .. .I have always thought the UK should have become another region of the FAA rather than part of the JAA cabal. Unfortunately there would still be the Eurocontrol problem so any flights departing to the south would still be screwed. GA guys in the UK would have it a lot better.. . . . <small>[ 27 March 2002, 22:05: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</small>
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It is intriguing how discussions about falling standards arise. . .Reading or watching the news reveals that our doctors are unscrupulous figures who regularly cock up your care and molest your daughters; teachers are ignoramuses presiding over a 3rd world exam system within which exams are supposedly no match for the A levels of old; accountants will move to the Bahamas on your retirement money. . .Are skills like those of a flying instructor or doctor or cabinetmaker really deterioraating? Why is it we all come to feel this way? Surely objective evidence shows that our abilities to ameliorate the effects of disease or transport ourselves safely by air are in fact improving?
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Chickenhawk66:. .. .I can't comment on Doctors and Cabinetmakers but during the past several decades Flight Instructors on the whole have deterioated in their flying skills and by default their ability to teach same.. .. .The reasons for this downturn is not easy to pinpoint exactly, but contributing factors are partly due to aircraft design changes and the bureaucrats who lay out the training guidelines moving from teaching physical flight skills to paper oriented subjects such as the ever expanding rules and downright goofy psuedo science in their vision of so called human factors training.. .. .That is my very brief thoughts on your question, but yes the overall competancy of flight instructors has taken a downward turn and it is evident by observing their product.. .. ................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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WWW:. .. .Hi again good friend.. .. .I also was referring to private GA standards.. .. .They are not as oriented toward stick and rudder flying as they were several decades ago, in all fairness to your opinion the newer aircraft are not as demanding to fly which plays some part in the general lower standard of pilot skills in todays instructor.. .. .Will you agree that the aircraft which I referred to in my post required a different set of skills to fly than your Boeing?. .. .Will you also allow that "ALL" private pilot candidates would be better served if more stick and rudder skills were taught. For instance would it not be beneficial to them if some of their early training were on a taildragger?. .. .Now, can you give us some number crunching on what percentage of to days instructors are tail wheel qualified sufficient to teach on same.. .. . I will be hanging around N. Weald in May doing some test flying on the nicest PBY in the world before we ferry it and would really like to meet you if you are in that area. ( Hell maybe you could even teach me something about flying the damn thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .. ). .. .............. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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I am not sure I agree that standards are slipping. Flying is more complicated than it used to be and just good stick and rudder skills are not enough anymore, particularly when you have to fly in the same sky as commercial traffic which is just about anywhere near a city these days. The good old days where you you only used the radio to order lunch at the next stop are just about over, pretty much everywhere. I tell all my students that beeing a proffesional pilot is a state of mind. It involves making an effort to sweat the details ,to constantly fly as accurately as you can , to take pride in a well flown manoever, and strive to do better. Some of the best pilots I have seen have been relatively low time private pilots. Conversly some high time big iron drivers I have met are walking aeronutical idiots. It reminds of a great line I overheard at the flying club coffee shop. An obviously newly minted PPL is plainly in awe of his friend the commercial pilot and his often stated claim that he has over a thousand hours. Unfortunately the object of his adulation was widely considered a pratt. Finally. .one of the gentleman at the table, a hugely experienced retired pilot, couldn't stand it any longer. He said " Some pilots have a thousand hours, he has one hour a thousand times " <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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B.P.F.:. .. .This thread was discussing the poor landing abilities of a large number of todays pilots, just go back and read the first posts.. .. .As to your comment that flying is more complicated today than it used to be, that is not exactly true either. It all depands on where and what you are flying. Good stick and rudder skills are no less important today than they were in the past.. .. .Now I don't know how far back you go but lets try Chicago O'Hare in the late fifties and early sixties, the traffic density was not all that much different than today and we did not have all the modern avionics and nav equipment to make life easier.. .. .There is a positive aspect to poorly trained pilots however, it does give those who do skills upgrading training a never ending supply of customers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. ...................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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Cat Driver. .. .I never said good stick and rudder skills were not important, just that they are not the only skills required to be a good pilot. In regards to your point that this thread is about poor landings, I think my comments absolutely apply.. .Pilots of whatever experience level that make an effort to "always sweat the details, and try to fly the airplane as accurately as possible" don't make three point landings 2/3 of the way down the runway. They make good safe tail low landings in the first 1/4 of the runway because they made the effort to fly the final approach at an appropriate stabilized airspeed and on a good glidepath. The willingness to apply this discipline and to generally take pride in the demonstration of good airmanship is independant of total flying hours and has not in my opinion changed appreciably over the years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />
