Buying my first aircraft
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Buying my first aircraft
I have had my ppl 1.5 years with 100 hrs logged. Mostly on a 152, but some flying on 172 and PA-28.
Considering my own aircraft now.
Budget: £20,000
Annual Budget £5000
So my 5K will buy me about 45hrs a year in my club's 152, which is fine, but not very flexible in terms of "going" somewhere.
What are my best options?
Considering my own aircraft now.
Budget: £20,000
Annual Budget £5000
So my 5K will buy me about 45hrs a year in my club's 152, which is fine, but not very flexible in terms of "going" somewhere.
What are my best options?
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Laichtown, I'm in the same boat, hours wise and planned usage. Just bought into a PA28 group for just over £3k, 10 people in the group, online booking system, availability excellent and in much better condition that the crud that most flying clubs can offer you.
I plan to buy either my own (or share) in Arrow, Bonanza, Saratoga, something like that for circa £50k in the next couple of years (when circa 200 hrs). Group definately the way ahead for now - get as many hours as you can on different types too before committing to spending you hard earned.
I plan to buy either my own (or share) in Arrow, Bonanza, Saratoga, something like that for circa £50k in the next couple of years (when circa 200 hrs). Group definately the way ahead for now - get as many hours as you can on different types too before committing to spending you hard earned.
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What are my best options?
I did this for the first five years or so after getting my PPL and then finally bought my own (a Europa). The reasons for a group are :-
1. You will learn a lot in group about maintenance, getting annuals done, insurance etc etc. - this can be quit a complex issue - particularly with a full CofA aircraft.
2. It will be considerably cheaper, both the intial capital and the monthly costs.
3. In a good group you should get good access ( I never had a problem) if possible go for a relatively small group - 4 or 5 seems the ideal number.
4. IF there any major problems requiring a big un-budgetted outlay (e.g. a seized engine) then the cost will be split amongst the group
5. It is much easier to sell a share rather than a whole aircraft when you decide to leave.
6. You have access to (probably) more experienced pilots than yourself in the group with whom you can share flights.
The main thing is the relationship between the group members - whatever the group agreement states, it all comes down to trust in the end. So it is better if you can find a group at an airfield where you know plenty of people and can put the word around that you are looking for a group share and then buy inot one where you already know some of the members.
If you do go for a group make sure that there is a reasonable fund building up to cater for unexpected costs that may not be covered by insurance.
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Groups are nowhere near the hassle you suggest, provided you get to know the members and have decent guidelines/rules.
Even with six members we've never had an availability problem.
£20k would buy you into an excellent aeroplane and the hefty bills you can expect taste a little bit better when they're divided six ways.
However with out knowing more about your aviation plans ( leisure/hour building / commercial/LAA)) it's difficult to make any further suggestions.
If you do go the sole ownership way, get as many rides in different types before you take the plunge: It's a buyer's market at present but if you end up buying a dud you'll be a long time shifting it.
Good luck
Cusco
EDIT Missed your Jabiru suggestion: Have you flown in one: A guy at our strip got rid of his as he was tired of getting bounced around in hot weather........
Even with six members we've never had an availability problem.
£20k would buy you into an excellent aeroplane and the hefty bills you can expect taste a little bit better when they're divided six ways.
However with out knowing more about your aviation plans ( leisure/hour building / commercial/LAA)) it's difficult to make any further suggestions.
If you do go the sole ownership way, get as many rides in different types before you take the plunge: It's a buyer's market at present but if you end up buying a dud you'll be a long time shifting it.
Good luck
Cusco
EDIT Missed your Jabiru suggestion: Have you flown in one: A guy at our strip got rid of his as he was tired of getting bounced around in hot weather........
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I betcha don't get a consensus on any flying website.
Too many variables and too subjective too. I own my Aicraft and I fly when I want to, for as long(or short) as I want to. It costs less to run because its on a permit. I love it.
But and there always are buts......All costs relating to her are mine, Hangarage, insurance, maintenance. because she is on a permit I can't fly at night or in IMC. She only has 2 seats. If the engine goes T**s up I alone will pay the bill. Granted, because she is on a permit I can fit loow houred used unit, but still not cheap or neccessarily the best idea.
If your happy with a 2 seat permit aircraft then you would also need to look at Microlights. as some of them go like the clappers at a very much reduced cost.
If you think you will fly at night or regularly in IMC then you need to look at a certified aircraft and at £20,000 budget I would suggest a share is your main option.
My annual costs last year for 85 hours, including fuel were IRO £4,500 and I wouldn't change a thing. If you consider the permit route then make sure you go along to a couple of fly-ins and see whats available as well listening to the advice you will get on here.
Sorry, but for what it's worth that's my view.
The lighter the plane the bumpier the ride tends to be true, but don't rule anything out until you try a few.
Too many variables and too subjective too. I own my Aicraft and I fly when I want to, for as long(or short) as I want to. It costs less to run because its on a permit. I love it.
But and there always are buts......All costs relating to her are mine, Hangarage, insurance, maintenance. because she is on a permit I can't fly at night or in IMC. She only has 2 seats. If the engine goes T**s up I alone will pay the bill. Granted, because she is on a permit I can fit loow houred used unit, but still not cheap or neccessarily the best idea.
If your happy with a 2 seat permit aircraft then you would also need to look at Microlights. as some of them go like the clappers at a very much reduced cost.
If you think you will fly at night or regularly in IMC then you need to look at a certified aircraft and at £20,000 budget I would suggest a share is your main option.
My annual costs last year for 85 hours, including fuel were IRO £4,500 and I wouldn't change a thing. If you consider the permit route then make sure you go along to a couple of fly-ins and see whats available as well listening to the advice you will get on here.
Sorry, but for what it's worth that's my view.
The lighter the plane the bumpier the ride tends to be true, but don't rule anything out until you try a few.
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20k will get you the freehold to a very high performance lawn mower and a shed to park it in
If you want something decent, join a group, and set up a group with some mates you know and trust.
If you want something decent, join a group, and set up a group with some mates you know and trust.
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Hi I own a Jodel D117 sometimes available at around the £13,000 to £15,000. There are quite a few of them about so support is excellent, easy'ish to maintain, 95-105 kts cruise,20ltr an hour,4 hrs with reserves,almost viceless,almost heaterless too(cold at 12,000ft yesyerday) If your over 6 feet it will be a bit cramped, but a D120 has a little extra legroom, similar price. You would need a taildragger conversion,but no problem getting converted if you buy one.If you live near to York you would be most welcome to come for a ride.
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Don't have experience with this myself, but:
If you try to sell a single share in an established group, then the potential group of people that might want to buy your share is limited to, say, a 100km radius around the airfield where it's based. Whereas if you try to sell a full aircraft, particularly if it's properly maintained and on an ICAO CofA or something, the whole world is a potential buyer.
Mind you, some groups have provisions for buying back your share at a certain (reduced) price in certain circumstances.
5. It is much easier to sell a share rather than a whole aircraft when you decide to leave.
Mind you, some groups have provisions for buying back your share at a certain (reduced) price in certain circumstances.
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Hello!
I rather see a problem with your annual budget than with the purchase price. What if "they" decide to make you install a mode-S-transponder (as "they" already did in other parts of the world that are closing in around you)? There goes your annual budget at once. Or an examiner finds a corroded crankshaft during the next annual inspection? There go two annual budgets. And so on.
Having owned 1/3 shares in two aeroplanes over the years I really have no illusions any more regarding owning vs. hiring. Always expect the unexpected and then triple the associated cost...
I don't know much about permit-to-fly aeroplanes in the UK, but any type on a C of A anywhere in Europe is not going to fly a single minute on basis of a 5000 Pound/Euro budget.
Happy landings,
max
I rather see a problem with your annual budget than with the purchase price. What if "they" decide to make you install a mode-S-transponder (as "they" already did in other parts of the world that are closing in around you)? There goes your annual budget at once. Or an examiner finds a corroded crankshaft during the next annual inspection? There go two annual budgets. And so on.
Having owned 1/3 shares in two aeroplanes over the years I really have no illusions any more regarding owning vs. hiring. Always expect the unexpected and then triple the associated cost...
I don't know much about permit-to-fly aeroplanes in the UK, but any type on a C of A anywhere in Europe is not going to fly a single minute on basis of a 5000 Pound/Euro budget.
Happy landings,
max
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I think too many generalised statements here e.g.
I used to run a TB20 on less than that, not including fuel. How? It was brand new.
Also, the devil is in the detail. If you join a syndicate around a plane with a "normal" engine costing say £20k to overhaul, and the engine has 100hrs to go to overhaul time, and the syndicate has no engine fund, then........ who is the bigger mug? The group for not having provided for it over many years, or the new shareholder who didn't do the most basic due diligence? His newly acquired share will likely be close to worthless.
To be fair, when one gets a PPL one knows sod all about these things and it is really easy to get conned. I narrowly escaped getting into some groups which I later discovered were falling apart due to factors like that. But that's the value of these forums People here will tell you stuff straight which you wouldn't get told by e.g. instructors who have a certain commercial interest in continuing to rent their spamcans
In the end there is no free lunch. "The plane", whatever it is, has to be fully funded somehow. A lot of people expect to get something for nothing but one cannot achieve that.
any type on a C of A anywhere in Europe is not going to fly a single minute on basis of a 5000 Pound/Euro budget.
Also, the devil is in the detail. If you join a syndicate around a plane with a "normal" engine costing say £20k to overhaul, and the engine has 100hrs to go to overhaul time, and the syndicate has no engine fund, then........ who is the bigger mug? The group for not having provided for it over many years, or the new shareholder who didn't do the most basic due diligence? His newly acquired share will likely be close to worthless.
To be fair, when one gets a PPL one knows sod all about these things and it is really easy to get conned. I narrowly escaped getting into some groups which I later discovered were falling apart due to factors like that. But that's the value of these forums
People here will tell you stuff straight which you wouldn't get told by e.g. instructors who have a certain commercial interest in continuing to rent their spamcans In the end there is no free lunch. "The plane", whatever it is, has to be fully funded somehow. A lot of people expect to get something for nothing but one cannot achieve that.
For Permit aircraft £20k will buy you a very good Jodel/Condor with a lot left over for contingencies. Or it will buy a half share in something modern, fast and economical, like a Europa. There doesn't seem to be much in between.
Direct cost of operating a Jodel/Condor is about £40/hour. With hangar and insurance you should be able to manage 50 hours a year comfortably within your budget of £5k, building up your reserves from the residue of your £20k for contingencies.
I can't comment on Europa operating costs except to say that the direct costs would be significantly lower based on fuel consumption.
Direct cost of operating a Jodel/Condor is about £40/hour. With hangar and insurance you should be able to manage 50 hours a year comfortably within your budget of £5k, building up your reserves from the residue of your £20k for contingencies.
I can't comment on Europa operating costs except to say that the direct costs would be significantly lower based on fuel consumption.
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I would emphasis what IO has stated. The problem for a new aircraft owner are the unknown unknowns - which cover pretty much everything!
If you can find someone with real experience to act as a mentor to you - beware! I've done it - it was a pain in the neck and I'll never do it again. If someone you only vaguely know offers - be suspicious!
The easiest way is to join a syndicate. Find a group you like the people in, and who own a run of the mill machine and have some money in the bank - that will be an easy share to sell!
Most groups are keen to use people who want to help and so you should be able to get close to the action, without gettiing burnt and using the expertise that already exists in the group.
Unfortunately GA is full of rogues and scoundrels - and that just covers the CAA licensed companies, many of the individuals would be unable to fly in a Sharia society as they would be unable to hold anything!
No one tells the new PPL any of this and the majority who do not take the learned advice of the forum find out the hard way.
It all sounds a bit negative - but I've owned aircraft for a long time and do not regret it for a moment. But I've learnt the hard way. Join a group with a permit aircraft and learn within that framework - after 2 years you'll know what you want and how to do it.
If you can find someone with real experience to act as a mentor to you - beware! I've done it - it was a pain in the neck and I'll never do it again. If someone you only vaguely know offers - be suspicious!
The easiest way is to join a syndicate. Find a group you like the people in, and who own a run of the mill machine and have some money in the bank - that will be an easy share to sell!
Most groups are keen to use people who want to help and so you should be able to get close to the action, without gettiing burnt and using the expertise that already exists in the group.
Unfortunately GA is full of rogues and scoundrels - and that just covers the CAA licensed companies, many of the individuals would be unable to fly in a Sharia society as they would be unable to hold anything!
No one tells the new PPL any of this and the majority who do not take the learned advice of the forum find out the hard way.
It all sounds a bit negative - but I've owned aircraft for a long time and do not regret it for a moment. But I've learnt the hard way. Join a group with a permit aircraft and learn within that framework - after 2 years you'll know what you want and how to do it.
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We have 6 in our first group and have never had any availability problems.
If you have £20k and £5k per year why not hook up with someone else and get something a little bit nicer and then share the bills? Or save half the money? Or make sure it is nicely hangared and well maintained? It is very rare that an aeroplane is always being used, ours spends 2% of the year in the air.
We have minimal group rules so it really is like owning your own aeroplane but instead of the annual costing £2k, it only costs £333.
I share my other aeroplane with one other, so that £28,000 engine overhaul was far less painful than if I owned it outright
From past experience, unless fabulously wealthy, I'd never own a plane or boat on my own.
If you have £20k and £5k per year why not hook up with someone else and get something a little bit nicer and then share the bills? Or save half the money? Or make sure it is nicely hangared and well maintained? It is very rare that an aeroplane is always being used, ours spends 2% of the year in the air.
We have minimal group rules so it really is like owning your own aeroplane but instead of the annual costing £2k, it only costs £333.
I share my other aeroplane with one other, so that £28,000 engine overhaul was far less painful than if I owned it outright
From past experience, unless fabulously wealthy, I'd never own a plane or boat on my own.
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many of the individuals would be unable to fly in a Sharia society as they would be unable to hold anything!
Had to think about it for a while though....I was able to buy a new plane in 2002, but if I was doing it again but with a smaller budget I would spend all available energy in trying to assemble a group around some plane of good quality.
I now know it would not have been easy, because most people I trained with left aviation almost immediately they got the PPL, but this has got to be the best way.
Buying into a group is the next best thing but it brings a set of gotchas. Some can be quite subtle and really impossible to establish up front unless you really know what to look for (like aircraft availability patterns). Also very few groups provide properly for the engine fund, etc. And probably none provide for "major suprise" Annual costs; these can be pretty substantial on an old plane. I know of a group around a C150 which often had £7000 Annuals, but they had ~25 members to share the cost so nobody was really bothered about money, and that kind of a group probably represents the far end of syndicates - so cheap it doesn't matter but obviously mostly made up of very low annual hour pilots.
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wot englishal and io540 said.
I'm the same hours as you at 100, and really wanted my own plane, because it would be mine. I looked into ownership..............and ended up buying a share in a pa28.
What did it for me was the realisation that even a really well used plane of my own would spend over 99% of the year on the ground costing me money, and less than 1% in the air, "paying me back"
This way I get to fly nearly as freely as I could, have a much reduced drain on the bank, am building knowledge and experience, am learning what is and maybe more importantly what isn't value for money. Even the insurance will be cheaper when I have built my hours to 200+. LOgically there isn't really a choice, but we tend to buy the things we want with our hearts, not our wallets. Whatever you do, listen to people, but make your own mind up, and good luck.
I'm the same hours as you at 100, and really wanted my own plane, because it would be mine. I looked into ownership..............and ended up buying a share in a pa28.
What did it for me was the realisation that even a really well used plane of my own would spend over 99% of the year on the ground costing me money, and less than 1% in the air, "paying me back"
This way I get to fly nearly as freely as I could, have a much reduced drain on the bank, am building knowledge and experience, am learning what is and maybe more importantly what isn't value for money. Even the insurance will be cheaper when I have built my hours to 200+. LOgically there isn't really a choice, but we tend to buy the things we want with our hearts, not our wallets. Whatever you do, listen to people, but make your own mind up, and good luck.