arrogance
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
If we're talking arrogance in flying then let's not forget the near ubiquitous use of French on the R/T by French airline pilots flying into CDG and their ATC colleagues, meaning all foreign airline pilots have not a clue what they are saying.
Set against that the odd monoglot Brit bimbling into a pissy little grass strip with bugger-all traffic doesn't look so bad, does it?
Set against that the odd monoglot Brit bimbling into a pissy little grass strip with bugger-all traffic doesn't look so bad, does it?
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From: Compton Abbas
I have always assumed that the amount of French one would need to be proficient at, in order to conduct operations in and out of a small French airfield, would be not very much. The amount of English used to converse with English A/G stations is, after all, minimal. I would have thought that if you knew your numbers, and things like "runway" "left" and "right", and a few other likely words, you'd be most of the way there.
Ou Non?
Ou Non?
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From: Hellfire Corner
The problem for many Brits is not the amount of French they can muster to get themselves in and out of the circuit, but understanding the locals on the radio, especially if the airfield is on 123.5.
It's one thing to order a meal in a restaurant, but understanding what's going on for les rosbifs, especially without the benefit of face to face communication, becomes too much for some.
The French have every right to expect the courtesy of French where it is published to be in use.
It's one thing to order a meal in a restaurant, but understanding what's going on for les rosbifs, especially without the benefit of face to face communication, becomes too much for some.
The French have every right to expect the courtesy of French where it is published to be in use.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Bracknell, UK
I have always assumed that the amount of French one would need to be proficient at, in order to conduct operations in and out of a small French airfield, would be not very much. The amount of English used to converse with English A/G stations is, after all, minimal. I would have thought that if you knew your numbers, and things like "runway" "left" and "right", and a few other likely words, you'd be most of the way there.
Ou Non?
Ou Non?
You could make an absolute killing with that - especially for the non-English speakers wanting to operate in the UK.
Bags I you let me define the French -> English translation terms though....because you can then look forward to a horde of French accents explaining to London Information that their "hovercrafts are full of eels", just before their "nipples explode with delight".
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
See my post above!
Warning
If you don't speak French, there is no way you can learn it, even aeronautical French, on this web page. Knowing a word doesn't mean that you'll be able to understand it when it is yelled on the radio, or that you'll even be able to express yourself so that other pilots will be able to understand what you say. Don't cheat with yourself, with your safety and with other's safety. If you don't speak French, don't use airfields where radio is mandatory and radio in French only is allowed. Unfortunately, this represents most of our airfields. See the Airportspagefor more details.
If you speak French fluently, it is up to you to decide whether or not you feel confident enough to venture into r/t in French. Again, don't cheat with yourself, and in case you doubt, don't do it. To test your ability, 3 ways in this page. You just need a Real Player for that. The player is downloadable for free, clicking here :
Warning
If you don't speak French, there is no way you can learn it, even aeronautical French, on this web page. Knowing a word doesn't mean that you'll be able to understand it when it is yelled on the radio, or that you'll even be able to express yourself so that other pilots will be able to understand what you say. Don't cheat with yourself, with your safety and with other's safety. If you don't speak French, don't use airfields where radio is mandatory and radio in French only is allowed. Unfortunately, this represents most of our airfields. See the Airportspagefor more details.
If you speak French fluently, it is up to you to decide whether or not you feel confident enough to venture into r/t in French. Again, don't cheat with yourself, and in case you doubt, don't do it. To test your ability, 3 ways in this page. You just need a Real Player for that. The player is downloadable for free, clicking here :
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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From: Bracknell, UK
Originally Posted by vee-tail-1's profile
Location: Pembrokeshire UK
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: in the mist
Wasn't it the french president who said "every frenchman has a god given right to speak french when in france"? This was a well constructed argument when the Air France pilots started refusing to reply in french to a french controller, when given an instruction in french.
The result was several near misses at CDG (which I suspect would have killed more than the 9 in your local field). I personally saw one of these, AF lined up with an Aeroflot on finals at 100-200'. Thanks to the quick reactions of the IL76 pilots they got away with it. The Aeroflot crew then ignored all subsequent transmissions from tower, flew a tight circuit and landed.
There is no substitute for looking out the darn window no matter what language you're using. Personally I enjoy flying non-radio. It avoids having to speak to arrogant people - like french controllers.
The result was several near misses at CDG (which I suspect would have killed more than the 9 in your local field). I personally saw one of these, AF lined up with an Aeroflot on finals at 100-200'. Thanks to the quick reactions of the IL76 pilots they got away with it. The Aeroflot crew then ignored all subsequent transmissions from tower, flew a tight circuit and landed.
There is no substitute for looking out the darn window no matter what language you're using. Personally I enjoy flying non-radio. It avoids having to speak to arrogant people - like french controllers.
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From: in the mist
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
From: Bracknell, UK
Joined: May 2005
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From: Aberdeen, UK
I flew down to St Omer for the Jodel fly in (but we were in a C172) this year, and thankfully, through a modicum of French at school and a cheat sheet, we had no problem making the calls or understanding the basics of others in the circuit along with a very very very good lookout. Although that was pre-arranged, and there were a large number of UK flyers coming in for the event.
However, on the way back across the channel there were a couple of French pilots whose RT was absolutely disgraceful to the point the very busy ATC chap told one of them to just shut up until he called them again - didn't work and he stepped over another 4 people in succession (after doing it 3 times already).
Goes both ways...
However, on the way back across the channel there were a couple of French pilots whose RT was absolutely disgraceful to the point the very busy ATC chap told one of them to just shut up until he called them again - didn't work and he stepped over another 4 people in succession (after doing it 3 times already).
Goes both ways...
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From: Compton Abbas
The notion that I should be fluent in French to fly to a small French airfield is rubbish. There are plenty of pilots I've heard on the radio in England with poor English. These are both PPLs and ATPLs (probably doing their IRs). Air traffic controllers slow down and make extra effort to be clear, to accommodate these poor English skills, and so do I, as another pilot on frequency who wants to make sure I'm understood too. At the end of the day, they know enough to get by, and they'll improve.
I see no reason why the same accommodation wouldn't be made in France.
Then again it's a well-known fact that if you speak English only LOUDER they're more likely to understand. BREAD! I want some BREAD!
I see no reason why the same accommodation wouldn't be made in France.
Then again it's a well-known fact that if you speak English only LOUDER they're more likely to understand. BREAD! I want some BREAD!
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Bordeaux, France
In the summer months, I am increasingly finding myself using French to talk to my family in Supermarkets due to the embarassement factor of the odd "Brit Abroard" charachter wandering around talking loudly, so I try to go incognito...
Guys, Please dont make me have to pretend to be French in the air?
Our aeroclub is a typically friendly french affair, especially to visiting Brits, possibly due to myself being in residence and the couple living there having served several exchange postings in the UK with the FAF. But I must say, that in the last couple of years there have been a few incidents which raised eyebrows at the club, and the following stick out in my mind as they caused much hilarity st the club....
...like the guy that attempted to land a PA-28R on the 5m x 100m Aeromodellers runway (he actually touched down!!
) instead of our 900mx30m grass runway the other side of the ditch - how do you do that if you have looked at the airfield plate!!
......And the gaggle of microlighters which pitched up and caused havoc in the circuit & parking on the ground, then asked if there was a chateaux close by they could visit - a club member offered to show them around his place, offered wine tasting, gave lifts to hotels etc., and none of the dozen of them bought even one bottle of wine (that is the height of faux pas around here!!
) off of the guy.
And honestly, I think the Wine rejection raised many more eyebrows than the PA28 incident!!!!
OK, Maybe the initial poster was a bit harsh, but in all seriousness, British pilots dont want to start getting a bad rep here in france like some other sections of the "great" British public when abroard, do they?
You definitely DONT need to be fluent in French to visit the smaller French only airfields here. But please read the airfield plate and make calls saying who and where you are, and what you are doing, in French!! If the frequency is busy, how about trying to figure out what is going on before just blundering into the circuit with a OHJ? If you wouldnt do it in the UK, why do it abroard?
And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!
Guys, Please dont make me have to pretend to be French in the air?
Our aeroclub is a typically friendly french affair, especially to visiting Brits, possibly due to myself being in residence and the couple living there having served several exchange postings in the UK with the FAF. But I must say, that in the last couple of years there have been a few incidents which raised eyebrows at the club, and the following stick out in my mind as they caused much hilarity st the club....
...like the guy that attempted to land a PA-28R on the 5m x 100m Aeromodellers runway (he actually touched down!!
) instead of our 900mx30m grass runway the other side of the ditch - how do you do that if you have looked at the airfield plate!! ......And the gaggle of microlighters which pitched up and caused havoc in the circuit & parking on the ground, then asked if there was a chateaux close by they could visit - a club member offered to show them around his place, offered wine tasting, gave lifts to hotels etc., and none of the dozen of them bought even one bottle of wine (that is the height of faux pas around here!!) off of the guy.And honestly, I think the Wine rejection raised many more eyebrows than the PA28 incident!!!!
OK, Maybe the initial poster was a bit harsh, but in all seriousness, British pilots dont want to start getting a bad rep here in france like some other sections of the "great" British public when abroard, do they?
You definitely DONT need to be fluent in French to visit the smaller French only airfields here. But please read the airfield plate and make calls saying who and where you are, and what you are doing, in French!! If the frequency is busy, how about trying to figure out what is going on before just blundering into the circuit with a OHJ? If you wouldnt do it in the UK, why do it abroard?
And finally, if you do F*ck up, for godsake say sorry !!!
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From: UK
It's so easy to feel considerable sympathy for the OP's point.
Except that I then wonder if I am supposed to learn German to fly over the border to there, Switzer-Deutsch for then a lunch stop in Basel, Flemmish for a stop in Belgium on the way home.
I work in aviation, and I travel a lot - this year clocking up 8 countries, in all of which I was working at airports. Aside from my native English, and reasonable French, which other languages should I start on? And where should I compromise my other skills currency to concentrate on languages.
My parallel, I was working in Switzerland this year for a while, and having some reputation in Jiu Jitsu I was asked to go and do some teaching at a local club, which I did.
Did I do this in Switzer-Deutsch? - no, I don't speak it. Did I use English? - no, most of them didn't speak it. I taught in (very limited!) Japanese, which worked fine.
I suspect that if I was a professional chef, I'd probably travel the world working in French.
The fact is, fields need common languages - constrained almost certainly to a narrow vocabulary - but it needs them anyhow. In aviation, it does seem to be English.
Yes, I'll make an effort when I fly to France to know French RT calls, and not to screw up - but it's wrong that this should be necessary.
G
Except that I then wonder if I am supposed to learn German to fly over the border to there, Switzer-Deutsch for then a lunch stop in Basel, Flemmish for a stop in Belgium on the way home.
I work in aviation, and I travel a lot - this year clocking up 8 countries, in all of which I was working at airports. Aside from my native English, and reasonable French, which other languages should I start on? And where should I compromise my other skills currency to concentrate on languages.
My parallel, I was working in Switzerland this year for a while, and having some reputation in Jiu Jitsu I was asked to go and do some teaching at a local club, which I did.
Did I do this in Switzer-Deutsch? - no, I don't speak it. Did I use English? - no, most of them didn't speak it. I taught in (very limited!) Japanese, which worked fine.
I suspect that if I was a professional chef, I'd probably travel the world working in French.
The fact is, fields need common languages - constrained almost certainly to a narrow vocabulary - but it needs them anyhow. In aviation, it does seem to be English.
Yes, I'll make an effort when I fly to France to know French RT calls, and not to screw up - but it's wrong that this should be necessary.
G