arrogance
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
I haven't read all of this thread, but it strikes me that the French can often be very arrogant about matters like this for no real reason. To have a pilots licence a pilot MUST be able to speak aviation english. I can get by in French but would not trust my French on the RT in an aviation context, it strikes me as dangerous. As such I have not bothered to go to any small french airfields.
But is a French person expected to learn Norwegian when the fly to Norway? Are they expected to speak German in Germany? etc...
A friend of mine got into a bit of an arguement with a french person who refused to speak english, even though he could. The ironic thing was that my mate was Norwegian and spoke good english but no french. The french bloke was being an arrogant t**t. In fact around the world you see foreigners speaking together in english because IT IS a common language. They are also exposed to this language daily in most countries, with the likes of CSI Miami etc.
My auntie is french, my mum is danish, my uncle is danish, my cousin is english living with a french girl in Montpellier, the other one is married to a swiss girl living in Austin, my other auntie is russian and my english uncle lives in france, and I work mainly in Norway but have worked in every continent bar antarcica. The common thing is that all of them speak english.
But is a French person expected to learn Norwegian when the fly to Norway? Are they expected to speak German in Germany? etc...
A friend of mine got into a bit of an arguement with a french person who refused to speak english, even though he could. The ironic thing was that my mate was Norwegian and spoke good english but no french. The french bloke was being an arrogant t**t. In fact around the world you see foreigners speaking together in english because IT IS a common language. They are also exposed to this language daily in most countries, with the likes of CSI Miami etc.
My auntie is french, my mum is danish, my uncle is danish, my cousin is english living with a french girl in Montpellier, the other one is married to a swiss girl living in Austin, my other auntie is russian and my english uncle lives in france, and I work mainly in Norway but have worked in every continent bar antarcica. The common thing is that all of them speak english.
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 6,209
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From: north of barlu
The reason why the French won't speak in anything other than French is a cultual arrogance that seems to be taught from birth and despite the writing (six foot high in English!) on the wall they just cant get over the attitude that France is exclusively for the French and the rest of Europe should be the same way.
Eaxample. Last year I was employed by a UK airline on contract to a German airline working a French airline contract based in Lille.
When this became common knowlage a local newspaper started an investigation, the main thrust of this was French job protection. I had a brief chat with the investigating jorno and his attitude was that "something had to be wrong or illegal because the pilots were not French".
I pointed out to him (with a wry smile) that we all now lived in the United States of Europe and that this was governed from Brussels, the result was that we could all life and work in any part of Europe. This came as somewhat of a shock when he realsed that the EEC was "bigger" than France, not run by France and that the French had let the EEC cat out of the bag and worse could not put the cat back!
It was great fun flying the skys of Europe with a French cabin crew in the French all electric jet with a "Starway" c/s.
As "Starway" is a French airline French was the usual responce from ATC and I was getting quite good at understanding ATC commands in French, this only Re-enforced my opinion that the use of more than one language for ATC is a flight safety disaster in the making.....................Hell if the biggest nation on the planet (China) will comply with the ICAO standard languge why cant a the French.............. now thats what I call arrogance !
Eaxample. Last year I was employed by a UK airline on contract to a German airline working a French airline contract based in Lille.
When this became common knowlage a local newspaper started an investigation, the main thrust of this was French job protection. I had a brief chat with the investigating jorno and his attitude was that "something had to be wrong or illegal because the pilots were not French".
I pointed out to him (with a wry smile) that we all now lived in the United States of Europe and that this was governed from Brussels, the result was that we could all life and work in any part of Europe. This came as somewhat of a shock when he realsed that the EEC was "bigger" than France, not run by France and that the French had let the EEC cat out of the bag and worse could not put the cat back!
It was great fun flying the skys of Europe with a French cabin crew in the French all electric jet with a "Starway" c/s.
As "Starway" is a French airline French was the usual responce from ATC and I was getting quite good at understanding ATC commands in French, this only Re-enforced my opinion that the use of more than one language for ATC is a flight safety disaster in the making.....................Hell if the biggest nation on the planet (China) will comply with the ICAO standard languge why cant a the French.............. now thats what I call arrogance !
Pompey till I die
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 779
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From: Guildford
Personally
I find if Johnny Foreigner isn't understanding English then you should just shout what you're saying louder. Remember what Whicker said "Don't try and speak to them in their language, it'll immediately put you on the back foot".
Wise words. Tell 'em you want a basic service and if they don't understand, well, you know, aviate, navigate and laugh off the communicate.
Wise words. Tell 'em you want a basic service and if they don't understand, well, you know, aviate, navigate and laugh off the communicate.
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Here's one for sternone.
In Belgium you sometimes see Belgians speaking English because it's their only common language.
(No, I'm not kidding. I work for a multinational company who merged the Dutch and Belgium departments. Even when the Dutch are not present, this is something that happens regularly.)
In fact around the world you see foreigners speaking together in english because IT IS a common language.
(No, I'm not kidding. I work for a multinational company who merged the Dutch and Belgium departments. Even when the Dutch are not present, this is something that happens regularly.)
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 216
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From: High seas
...In the context of the original post, the Brits may be accused of 'ignorance' in not speaking French, but the word 'arrogance' is reserved solely for the French. It is a national pastime in which they pride themselves.
There has to be a common language around the world for various applications, flying being but one, and it irks the French no end that it is not their language.
They are also of the opinion that they (the French) liberated France in WW2, with the Allies merely there for support. They just can't bear to tell it as it was! Pride, Ignorance, Arrogance? You decide!!
There has to be a common language around the world for various applications, flying being but one, and it irks the French no end that it is not their language.
They are also of the opinion that they (the French) liberated France in WW2, with the Allies merely there for support. They just can't bear to tell it as it was! Pride, Ignorance, Arrogance? You decide!!
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 799
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
I can't say I recognise some of the descriptions of France and the French here. Most of the time I find that, although my French is fairly good, it is very difficult to stop people speaking English to you once they realise where you come from. I would say that the French have come on tremendously in the last 20 years or so and language never seems to be much of a problem now.
Are there arrogant French? Of course. But, for unfriendly, surly monosylabic grunters you don't need to look any further than good old England. Only the English can regard politeness and good service as evidence of some serious character defect.
Are there arrogant French? Of course. But, for unfriendly, surly monosylabic grunters you don't need to look any further than good old England. Only the English can regard politeness and good service as evidence of some serious character defect.
)
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 177
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From: Expat Kiwi living in London
French speaking...
From my limited experience touring around France, its simply a matter of politeness to speak as much French as you can in order to fit in with the local traffic. It is absolutely pointless to rant about English being the laguage which they SHOULD be speaking. The fact is that if one wants to go there, and one has read the plate for the airfield noting the French must be spoken either all the time or outside of ATC's published hours, those are the rules, so play by them. There are plenty of larger airfields in France where English is spoken all the time so use those if your French is non-existent, or poor.
I am not particularly fluent in French, but seem to get by with a handful of phrases and by paying attention to the published procedures, the current wind, and keeping the good look out to avoid meatbombers, gliders and other circuit traffic.
I have often found that my French elicits English "clarification" from local pilots anyway, almost all of whom speak far better French than I speak English. Or, and this seems equally likely, one lands to find that you are the only traffic in the area anyway - yet another immaculate French airfield so under-used and so friendly particularly if you happen to be in need of some kind of assistance.
I don't personally think it is at all arrogant to insist upon French at some airfields. I wish it wasn't the case because it does cause me embarrassment at my lack of liguistic ability. But I cannot get upset about it. After all, it is my choice to want to go there in the first place...
SC
I am not particularly fluent in French, but seem to get by with a handful of phrases and by paying attention to the published procedures, the current wind, and keeping the good look out to avoid meatbombers, gliders and other circuit traffic.
I have often found that my French elicits English "clarification" from local pilots anyway, almost all of whom speak far better French than I speak English. Or, and this seems equally likely, one lands to find that you are the only traffic in the area anyway - yet another immaculate French airfield so under-used and so friendly particularly if you happen to be in need of some kind of assistance.
I don't personally think it is at all arrogant to insist upon French at some airfields. I wish it wasn't the case because it does cause me embarrassment at my lack of liguistic ability. But I cannot get upset about it. After all, it is my choice to want to go there in the first place...
SC
Joined: Sep 2009
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 948
Likes: 63
From: N.YORKSHIRE
On approaching a small German airfield I called them in English. The guy in the tower immediately switched to using English, as did two local pilots in the circuit. On departure the same thing happened. On leaving their zone I thanked them in German for their hospitality. The reply was in English.
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 399
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From: suffolk
St. Omer, at the jodel fly-in every year. They love it and even donate bits,it has even featured on the front cover of the RSA magazine. Thats an old pic, this year had swimming pool (piscine) fishing gnome and ducks!
At this rate I'll need a DC3 soon!
At this rate I'll need a DC3 soon!
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Never had a problem with French folks, apart from in Paris (and they're like that to each other, too - it's not anti-foreigner). Most places are supremely friendly.
I did have a very nasty scare at Toussus, though. There are two parallel runways, and I was lined up on final to 08R (or whatever it was) when another aircraft crossed directly ahead of me (and scarily close) to line up for 08L. He and ATC were speaking very fast, in French, and I had no idea what was happening. There was no warning, and I did tell ATC - with the response "Yes, monsieur, he's landing on 08L". That was a while ago: these days, I'd have filed an MOR.
I did have a very nasty scare at Toussus, though. There are two parallel runways, and I was lined up on final to 08R (or whatever it was) when another aircraft crossed directly ahead of me (and scarily close) to line up for 08L. He and ATC were speaking very fast, in French, and I had no idea what was happening. There was no warning, and I did tell ATC - with the response "Yes, monsieur, he's landing on 08L". That was a while ago: these days, I'd have filed an MOR.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 471
Likes: 31
From: Europe
English THE international language of aviation?
Hmmm, a lot of people here are saying that English is "the" international language of aviation and as such should be spoken everywhere.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember that this particular ICAO recommendation applies only to IFR flights.
The ICAO document specifies a number of ICAO languages (French, Russian, Spanish, Chinese (don't know if Cantonese or Mandarine or both)etc). It also says that in countries where the first language is not English, the alternative shall be English. However, all this only applies to IFR flights if I remember correctly.
I know German (uncontrolled) VFR airfields where AFIS comms are in German only and that's according the AIP. Lot's of others are GER/ENG
So the French are really not a special case.
It's a shame, but that's the way it is. I wish English was the only language in aviation but it is not.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember that this particular ICAO recommendation applies only to IFR flights.
The ICAO document specifies a number of ICAO languages (French, Russian, Spanish, Chinese (don't know if Cantonese or Mandarine or both)etc). It also says that in countries where the first language is not English, the alternative shall be English. However, all this only applies to IFR flights if I remember correctly.
I know German (uncontrolled) VFR airfields where AFIS comms are in German only and that's according the AIP. Lot's of others are GER/ENG
So the French are really not a special case.
It's a shame, but that's the way it is. I wish English was the only language in aviation but it is not.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
Just to wind things up a little 
Here in Wales we sometimes have a bit of bother with the English, most of whom can't accept that this is a part of Britain where the first language is not English.
Next time I am on A/G you just might get FIS in Welsh
Here in Wales we sometimes have a bit of bother with the English, most of whom can't accept that this is a part of Britain where the first language is not English.
Next time I am on A/G you just might get FIS in Welsh