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cirrus sr22

Old 15th Nov 2009, 23:06
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Personally I think the Mooney is a piece of Shyte, and yes I have flown them. Why because it has a cramped cabin, poor visiblity, ailerons that feel like they were set in cement and they are universally reviled by mechanics because they are so hard to work on....BUT since this thread is not about Mooneys it is as the thread header plainly says, about the SR22, I don't think many readers of this thread really care about what I think about Mooneys.

Since I have never had the chance to fly one, what I personally would like to hear is how actual SR22 owners have found the aircraft to operate and what the maintainance trouble spots are.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 00:40
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
This is not as flexible as having a separate prop control. In typical cruise flight there is no decrease in fuel economy relative to having a separate prop control.

Not correct. There is a big difference between 2200 and 2500 and especially 2700.
Interesting. I'll have to dig into this more since Hartzell claims max prop efficiency for my prop is around 2500 but what would they know. Considering how well the SR22 competes with planes like the A36 for efficiency then if this is true they could do really well.

This is an area where I can understand the preference for something other than the choice Cirrus has made. Having owned a Fiat 124 Spyder, Porsche 914/6, Mazda RX7 and Acura NSX (which I deeply miss) I can sympathize with wanting a less "automatic" system. Cirrus chose operational simplicity. There was an automatic version of the NSX but I didn't want it.

Quote:
Considering that I have a roomier cabin and gear hanging down that is pretty good.

Yes, a good bit of marketing
It's more than that. For many a fixed gear makes a plane less attractive. For those who want a fixed gear plane Cirrus (and Cessna Corvalis) are planes which give similar efficiency to a retract but with a fixed gear. Room also makes a difference. Some people willingly trade comfort for efficiency. Different planes go after a different balance. Cirrus chose a roomier cockpit. This is more than good marketing. It is choice.

IMHO the worst thing any manufacturer can do to their client base is constantly revise and rebrand their product line. This instantly devalues the last few marques the second the new label is announced.
You may get your wish with current management. However, a car company makes no money when an owner sells his used car. A car company makes money by convincing a person to buy a new car. When used is almost the same as new it raises used values until new doesn't seem that much more expensive but there is little incentive for the present owner to trade for a new item (car or plane). It was Cirrus' move to all glass that forced the hand of other manufacturers. It also made many people who already owned a Cirrus to trade up. That drove down used prices. I mentioned that in an earlier post. A company should be out to make a profit. That means generating sales. That means constantly generating excitement about the product and new reasons to buy. Consider other items you own. Your computer has been greatly devalued each year. Would you prefer that no new microprocessors or software were available? It would strengthen the marked for your used computer. How about automobiles? Have you been opposed to adding electronic engine control, anti lock brakes, air bags, crumple zones etc.? Each of these devalued older vehicles. The period when airplane values held up the best was when Cessna stop producing single engine piston planes. Crazy me but I don't want to go back to that just to shore up used prices. If we can just shut down Cessna, Cirrus and Diamond then used prices will firm up. That means they will be doing great. Oh wait, they won't be selling anything. Never mind.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 01:54
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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beat up Cirrus

sternone - Well I read your post and you really have me here:

* Cirrus planes looks beat up after 400 hours inside/outside
At 772 hours my plane must be really trashed out since it is almost twice your 400 hours. Go to 772_hour_Cirrus and view the carnage. I tried to take pictures that would show the trashed out interior, dilapidated leather and the dash falling apart. BTW the weather here was awesome today as was the flying.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 07:34
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Hartzell claims max prop efficiency for my prop is around 2500 but what would they know.
Prop efficiency maybe but engine efficiency variation is a lot bigger than prop efficiency variation.

I can take you up in my TB20. We climb to FL100, WOT, just into LOP, and play with the prop rpm (2200-2575) while watching the MPG readout on the GPS. It is an impressive confirmation of Cirrus Marketing

But hey as they say (or used to say) in the USA: fuel is the cheapest thing you can put in your engine
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 08:50
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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I would like to buy a new aircraft – yeah, I know, fly it out the show room and you have lost 20%, but I want a new aircraft, just like so many people want a new car.

A Mooney, sorry sir, we went bust. Socata, now they make very nice aircraft, sorry sir, we pulled out of piston aircraft. A Piper, yes of course sir, but anything close to the performance of a Cirrus will cost you a lot more. I could go on.

You see for me that is the point. Surviving as an aircraft manufacturing is a tough, a very tough business. It inevitably means compromise. It inevitably means giving people very good reasons to buy new aircraft. It inevitably means a good advertising campaign. It inevitably means some compromises. Cirrus may not be the most fuel efficient aircraft for example but I find myself asking even in these times of very costly fuel how much of a factor is an extra gallon or two an hour if you can afford a Cirrus. If fuel was such an issue Jag, Mercedes and BMW would have been bust years ago, and the anti 4 x 4 brigade would be in Westminster.

So here is the thing, Cirrus may not do it for you, but if you are in the market for a new aircraft (and a great many people have, a few still are, and hopefully many more will be in the future if GA is to survive) Cirrus are one of the few acts in town.

They are not perfect and many of those imperfections are because of compromise. Americans are big and fat, Europeans are getting that way, and they don’t want to squeeze into a Mooney. Make a large comfortable cockpit and it costs fuel – Cirrus can’t change the laws of physics. It is a fact many pilots want simple controls. How many Americans would dream of buying a manual shift? FADEC – well yes of course, who hasn’t got it in their car – or the equivalent? Cirrus has gone some way with the single leaver; doubtless full FADEC will be the next step as soon as it is proven, and when it is dual leavers will not get close to competing with FADEC. As to the chute, well my wife likes it, and everyone I fly with likes it, so whether or not they like it for the right reasons or not it’s probably better with it than without it. I could go on.

Could a better light single be conceived? Of course. However I doubt anything could ever be designed that would suite everyone. I believe glass is the way forward. I wouldn’t buy a new aircraft without glass. However I suspect IO540 wouldn’t buy one with. He’s not wrong, just takes a different view for very good reasons.

Who said you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time but you cant please all of the people all of the time.

At the moment Cirrus, Diamond, Piper and Cessna are the only acts in town so far as four seat touring aircraft are concerned – each making very different aircraft, which is as it should be. Historically a truly innovative aircraft manufacturer has never survived but both Diamond and Cirrus have used established technology in an innovative way (well with the exception of the Theilert engine), and for that reason I take my hat off to them for dragging light singles into the 21st century!

Mooney had a chance to be the fifth, but they didn’t take it. It is not often you get a second chance in this business.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 09:06
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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All in all I think Fuji and Paulp sum it up much better than I attempted, as a part owner all I can say it has revitalised my personal interest in fixed wing flying and I can not see my self changing soon.

In the last few days I have flown Diamond DA40 and a DA42 twin for a few hours and I think they are also nice planes, in fact the DA40 was much better than I expected.

The Cirrus can really get you places fast and comfortably (we made Jordan quite easily in 2 days last week with 2 fuel stops) andI can not imagine it being quite so comfortable or achievable in any other GA aircraft that I am aware of.

And as Fuji says if you were buying knew I do not see any other viable competition.

Regarding Sterones claim about Alan K making a ridiculous offer to buy the Jet, is that your assumption or do you have any knowledge of what the offer was? he seemed pretty serious and to have a huge ammount of goodwill from the existing deposit holders. I dont think this story has fully played out yet.

The jet is a potential problem for Cirrus and I am sure if they could turn the clock back they would have not started and stuck to the SR existing line, but testament to the existing business model they are still in business and sold more planes in category than everyone else added up so far this year, so if it was just down to clever marketing I think the other guys better get new agencies.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 12:31
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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Since I have never had the chance to fly one, what I personally would like to hear is how actual SR22 owners have found the aircraft to operate and what the maintainance trouble spots are.
There is a lot to love about the SR22. Compared to the SR20 the biggest difference is climb. Having lots of power is nice. The wheel pants are tight so they are not a back country plane. Similarly, G1 and G2 aircraft have 7" of prop clearance. The G3 has more. Fit and finish improved year to year. G1 to G2 was a big improvement in fuselage related fit and finish. G2 to G3 had a big improvement in gear strut fit and finish. There is just a touch of truth to the beaten up Cirrus comments in that I have seen some that were pretty trashed out. However, they were fleet planes with close to 2,000 hours and had been left outside in the hot Georgia sun for years without even a sunshade in windscreen. There is too much use of velcro and double sided tape especially on G1's but when properly maintained everything works well.

As far as avionics, avoid the ARNAV in the used aircraft (personal opinion) and the Century HSI. The Sandel 3308 is massively better.

Join COPA (www.cirruspilots.org) if you are even remotely thinking of getting one. There is a massive amount of info there. Get the pdf of the Cirrus Pilot magazine issue that covered year to year changes if you are thinking of buying used.

If buying new, thee will be massive depreciation. Look at www.controller.com and get settled in on what to expect. If you buy everything you can on the plane there won't be a lot of useful load left. This is almost but not quite as bad as a fully loaded Mooney. Just run the numbers and make the tradeoffs that are best for you.

As far as flying qualities, the side stick is great. However, the spring centered trim system removes some feedback of air over the control surfaces. Harder to adjust to is the sight picture. If you are coming from a C182 you will have to get used to seeing the runway straight ahead in the flair. New pilots have trouble with this because of the vastly better forward visibility of the SR22. Another adjustment is speed management. Until you know what you are doing a good rule is 20" of manifold pressure when 20 nm out from your destination. Always get flaps in even if you have to go nose up to do it. It works fine once you get used to it but you don't have speed brakes or a draggy gear to drop down. If you get a turbo then the fat prop acts like a speed brake when the throttle is pulled back. It is a comfortable trip plane and will suck you in to long cross-country trips. Plan accordingly. WHen I flew a 172 I just looked outside for most trips. Even a go nowhere fun flight can take you a long way so always check weather.

Parts cost can be bad on some things but its certainly isn't any worse than a Beech. There is more maintenance because when you have more goodies in a plane there is more to go wrong. This isn't really type specific but most Cirrus aircraft are/were sold close to loaded. That means TAWS, Skywatch, Stormscope, ...

If you buy new schedule extra days beyond the transition training and do a good prebuy. Insist everything be fixed right there. Cirrus has cut staff and small issues like bad paint spots can slip out. Be picky.

Documentation, training etc. is first rate except they will teach you to land too fast. Speed management in a Cirrus is important. Go to the website and you can get the POH ahead of time. Perspective is powerful but complex. Synthetic vision is awesome. EVS is pretty cool too. However, Perspective is typical Garmin and just like a 430 it isn't natural the first time. My wife hates Perspective which is one reason we have a plane with Avidyne R9.

I don't have a turbo but owners are pretty much uniformly in love with them. They are simple to operate and have great performance.

The plane is great in turbulence and awesome to land in a crosswind. Unlike a V35 Bonanza, there is little to no tail waggle in turbulence.

Oh one more flying comment, the plane will slip with full flaps just fine. However the body is slick so make sure the slip is in the proper direction to present the side of the plane to a crosswind if you want to fall like a rock (usually why you are doing a slip).

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have specific questions. Got to run.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 13:52
  #148 (permalink)  

 
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Paulp, I would like to have a comment from you on my previous posted finding :


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...#ht_500wt_1182


2007 Cirrus SR22 Turbo GTS Single Engine Airplane Price: US $285,000.00

280k on controller with 195 hours on it and pretty much every option including tks.

This plane had to be well north of 600k new. that equates to over 1600 dollars an hour for depreciation!
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 15:56
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If buying new, thee will be massive depreciation. Look at www.controller.com and get settled in on what to expect
Sternone, What part of Paulp's explanation did you not understand about depreciation?

What vehicle, plane, boat has not depreciated dramatically in this market?(other than your Mooney)

People do not buy a brand new Cirrus as an asset in finacial terms they buy it to use to go places, likewise top ends cars depreciate heavily as you drive it away from ther forcourt.

Anyone in the market for any brand of plane should be able to get a phenominal deal right now, so if you have the cash go shopping.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 16:43
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As 007heli says it cuts both ways.

If you are in the market for a good second hand Cirrus now you will get an excellent deal and IF the market recovers over the next few years you might be surprised how little depreciation you have suffered.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 16:49
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Sternone,

I am only reading this thread as amusement, however, before posting figures, get out your calculator:

600-280 = 320k $

320/2(years) = 160k$/p.a.

160/365(days) = 438 $/day

438/24(hours) = 18.25 $/hour

Still a pretty sharpish rate of depreciation, but nowhere near your (shouted ) figure of $ 1600.

Now go, and play with your Mooney....
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 16:55
  #152 (permalink)  

 
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Oh sorry 172driver, In my world we calculate per flying hour, which is 1641.- USDOLLAR / FLYING HOUR

And your quoted calculation hurts also IMHO...
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 17:29
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At the moment Cirrus, Diamond, Piper and Cessna are the only acts in town so far as four seat touring aircraft are concerned


Think we can rule out Piper at the moment; the Warrior and Arrow (and Seminole) are trainers and the Archer is out of production. But I hear the Archer should be returning next year.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 18:04
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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Why does one have to buy brand new? A 2002 TB20 GT is up to date except the glass cockpit. It's a world apart from the 1950s hardware.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 19:52
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2007 Cirrus SR22 Turbo GTS Single Engine Airplane Price: US $285,000.00
Interesting plane to pick. G2 Turbo suffered depreciation in 2008 due to introduction of G3. Turbo adds about 50 lbs. In G2 to G3 80 lbs were removed from the airframe by going to a carbon fiber wing spar. Numerous owners upgraded form G2 turbo to G3 turbo after less than one year of ownership. W&B is also better on the turbo models with the G3. NA models have a very wide CG range and allow very flexible loading. G2 turbo with heavy guys in form need the rear 18 lb tail weight mod that came out later to correct the W&B issue. If you would actually read my posts you would see I mentioned the constant improvements causing depreciation on older version.

No comments on the pics of the ratty old Cirrus?
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 20:09
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Why does one have to buy brand new?
Of course one doesnt.

I have never bought a brand new aircraft or car or house.

My parents always wanted a brand new house, and bought one.

Why? I suppose some people love the idea of spec'ing it as they wish, like the idea that it doesnt come with a "history", like to feel they have the benefit of a full warranty, want the latest offering - in short there are plenty of reasons without which all these industries would collapse and we would have no used examples.

Mind you I was thinking today whether we are "dumbing" down some "consumer" items. I was discussing yachts with someone today. He made the point that nearly all the quality manufacturers have gone. You can take your pick of mass produced 50 foot yachts but few of them will last. As Cirrus stands accused they will also look tired very quickly. There are a multitude of "ultra" light new aircraft but none of them look like they will last very long. I flew a Bambi I little while ago. Very fast, very up to date, but as flimsy as a paper dart compared with a Cirrus. Of course price is a factor. You can make a 50 foot yacht for £400K and enough people will buy, you can make the same yacht to the quality being built only five or six years ago but it will cost double that - the market is all of a sudden a great deal smaller.

Cirrus could build in metal, fit traditional instruments and use the best quality leathers etc - the whole thing would be a work of art, but you would need to double the price.

I find myself wondering if their is a market for a hand crafted aircraft - albeit a very small market. People will pay the price demanded for a Veyron. The trouble is people are buying into a reputation. It is doubtful anyone would buy into a reputation in the light end of aviation because almost nobody has one.

I came very close to buying a new 42. I love the aircraft and still do. I suspect the 42 with Lycomings is everything the diesel version should have been - thank goodness I didnt.

The other issue with aircraft at the top end of the GA market is their utility value to most pilots. How many Cirrus in the UK are privately owned by a single person? In reality even if money is no object people find it difficult to justify the utility value against the cost where half a million dollars is involved; £100K and its a very different matter.

A TB20 will get you from A to B in the same time as makes no difference as a Cirrus and will do so in as much style. Sure it doesnt have pretty screens and sure some may say it is a bit dated but are the screens and styling worth and extra £100k plus a great deal more depreciation? Then again you could buy a perfectly serviceable Archer with a zero timed engine for half that cost. It would add maybe 25% to the journey time but a clean example will take you there in as much style and comfort and given you only get in an out once each journey does the single door really matter that much.

I drive a Hyundai - albeit a nearly new Hyundai. It gets me from A to B safely, its got pretty much all of the gimmicks including the auto pilot but it is not a Merc. I ask myself why I would want a Merc and cant find a good enough reason. When I buy my yacht to sail around the world I dont want a mass produced one simply because in my opinion it will not do the job any where near as well as an Oyster. If I had a need for a 90% despatch rate with business throughout Europe I would buy a turbine, but how many private pilots have such need.

So what point am I seeking to make - only that we are each motivated by different considerations, all a manufacturer has to do is appeal to enough of us to survive. Clearly Mooney has failed that test - in other words it doesnt matter how good the product, if not enough people buy it you are stuffed.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 20:50
  #157 (permalink)  

 
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Paulp: I'll take you to some 400 hours examples who really really look worn out.

I'll keep an eye on the G3 series since you tell me that Cirrus fixed that (I don't believe it)
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 20:55
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Cirrus could build in metal, fit traditional instruments and use the best quality leathers etc - the whole thing would be a work of art, but you would need to double the price.
Double the price ? A Mooney or a Bonanza isn't double of the price !

Ahum... Beechcraft is making a plane at roughly the same price WITH the best quality leathers and in METAL, and not the piper metal.

Why people buy more Cirrus than a Beechcraft G36 who you can upgrade to a G36TN TAT is beyond my imagination.

- in other words it doesnt matter how good the product, if not enough people buy it you are stuffed.
Luckily we have forums like this where people who look beyond the Cirrus marketing machine are looking and spitting their opinion. Something that isn't really allowed by the Cirrus owners so it seems. It's not my fault you believed the cirrus marketing and ended up with a plane who carries a depreciation value of $1600 per flying hour or $18 per hour that you live.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 21:00
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I don't think Cirrus need to go to metal to deliver build quality.

It's just that to deliver build quality in composite you have to spend loads of money on tooling. Accurate expensive moulds. Not the sort of "plus or minus a few mm" moulds which Cirrus and Diamond went for, and are only gradually improving on. A properly constructed swimming pool is built to a better tolerance than that

One also needs accurate tooling / jigs for metal but if one doesn't have them one can conceal it, by making the mating parts to fit. Whereas with composites this is harder because the stuff comes out of a mould and there is only so much one can trim in 3D.

What Cirrus (and Diamond) need to do is to greatly improve attention to detail. And underneath the skin they need to use better quality metal fittings. The rapid corrosion just adds to the depreciation.

But maybe the more rapid tired look is an inevitable characteristic of all modern planes, because (like all cars from the last 40 years) they use a lot of trim. A Cirrus that has been kicked around looks rough. But a TB20 that has been kicked around also looks rough, despite being a 20 years older design; it has a fair bit of trim too, which looks crap when it comes loose. And clumsy maintenance (the norm) just knackers it really fast. Whereas you never take off the trims in a car unless you need to fix something - and when you do, they rattle and don't go back properly. Whereas a C182 that has been kicked around looks just like it always used to - a flat instrument panel, minimal trim, and not too much that can look tired. Same with a Mooney - all the old iron looks rather agricultural IMHO The glass cockpits just make it look a bit weird. Like screwing a G1000 into a Russian combine harvester.
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Old 16th Nov 2009, 22:04
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This is one of the few newish Bonazas I can find:

Beech Bonanza G36 Piston Single Engine: Aircraft for Sale on AvBuyer.com

Compare that with the price of a Cirrus of the same age.

The two aircraft are not comparable.

I am not sure how relevant moulds are. Clearly the door needs to be made accurately to fit correctly but unlike a car there are very few panel joins in an aircraft that are unfilled. I cant think where on a Cirrus or Diamond better tolerances would help other than maybe the door on the Cirrus.

All the panels inside are covered in fabrics one way or another. If good quality materials are used and innovative design which does not rely on too much trim a good interior will result. I dont see too many problems with the interior of the G3 Cirrus - yes better leathers would look better for longer but generally the standard is pretty good. If anything Diamond use materials of lesser quality.

I agree there is no excuse for some of the corrosion I have seen on Diamonds and Cirrus.

As I said earlier cut it as you will who else has survived in this business over the last few years and who else is still producing aircraft. Diamond and Cirrus are far from perfect but they are the only game in town where they sit in the market. If they have it so horribly wrong and Money (or anyone else have it right) it should be easy to take over Mooney and do as good a job - strangely I dont see a line forming.
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