cirrus sr22
Turbo prop conversions
IO540
I have no experience of the Piper Jetprop but because of the reasons you give the P210N conversion is still certificated at the same weights and speeds as the origonal piston type.
The VNE is now the top of the yellow arc at 167 as opposed to the pistons 208. This is not a problem as the a/c is rarely flown at low level due fuel flows, and at the normal high teens flown, TAS is 205 ish.
The conversion includes some beefing up of known wear pionts at the the rear end. Some heavier ribs, skins, and a dual elevator trim actuator are included in the work.
This conversion appears to be operated at quite conservative limits. As for range (147 USG)we have flown Faro to our strip in Berkshire non- stop with two occupants.
Practical but expensive.
I have no experience of the Piper Jetprop but because of the reasons you give the P210N conversion is still certificated at the same weights and speeds as the origonal piston type.
The VNE is now the top of the yellow arc at 167 as opposed to the pistons 208. This is not a problem as the a/c is rarely flown at low level due fuel flows, and at the normal high teens flown, TAS is 205 ish.
The conversion includes some beefing up of known wear pionts at the the rear end. Some heavier ribs, skins, and a dual elevator trim actuator are included in the work.
This conversion appears to be operated at quite conservative limits. As for range (147 USG)we have flown Faro to our strip in Berkshire non- stop with two occupants.
Practical but expensive.
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Meridian vs Jetprop
IO540, does the Meridian have the tail reinforcements as standard?
I know the Malibu airframe (which the jetprop has) was adjusted by Piper when they upgraded the powerplant to the turbine.
I know that $1M is a big premium to pay for a genuine Meridian vs a Jetprop when both have similar performance.
Would be a shame to lose the tail at high speed though.
SB
I know the Malibu airframe (which the jetprop has) was adjusted by Piper when they upgraded the powerplant to the turbine.
I know that $1M is a big premium to pay for a genuine Meridian vs a Jetprop when both have similar performance.
Would be a shame to lose the tail at high speed though.
SB
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I don't know but believe the Meridian differs structurally.
The big thing however is route charges: the Jetprop is 1999kg while the Meridian is about 2300kg - this translates to a big operating cost difference; of the order of £100-200 just to e.g. fly across France. That's not a whole lot different to the entire cost of the fuel burnt on the flight.
The big thing however is route charges: the Jetprop is 1999kg while the Meridian is about 2300kg - this translates to a big operating cost difference; of the order of £100-200 just to e.g. fly across France. That's not a whole lot different to the entire cost of the fuel burnt on the flight.
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Meridian MTOW
Interestingly I was discussing the weighty issue of MTOW for the Meridian and euronav charges with the German Piper distributor a couple of weekends ago.
He assured me it is possible to certify your Meridian at 1999kg and thus avoid charges.
A peperwork exercise basically by the sound of things and a legitimate way to save money.
The euronav charges are almost as expensive as the French autoroutes.
He assured me it is possible to certify your Meridian at 1999kg and thus avoid charges.
A peperwork exercise basically by the sound of things and a legitimate way to save money.
The euronav charges are almost as expensive as the French autoroutes.
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More than one in one hundred Cirrus aircraft to leave the factory have been lost in a FATAL accident.
There are very complex factors behind that, but the truth is undeniable.
Me? I'd buy an old Golden Eagle - but then, I know I'm good!
There are very complex factors behind that, but the truth is undeniable.
Me? I'd buy an old Golden Eagle - but then, I know I'm good!
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Very different clientele though.
The spamcan market, as in going from A to B, has been dead on its feet for years. It's been kept standing up by U.S. consumer inertia, patriotism (not saying that's a bad thing), and ultra conservative attitudes in the GA market, especially in the USA where you could stick a pair of wings onto a Zanussi washing machine and quite a lot of GA pilots would think it looks really good. In fact it is quite possible that "Flying" Magazine would do a perfectly straight faced review of it, so long as it flew well.
Cessna have been kept in business by there being little else for the circuit bashing market, and by numerous short field / utility applications.
Piper are dead. They are kept going by spares production for the huge PA28 fleet.
The spamcan market, as in going from A to B, has been dead on its feet for years. It's been kept standing up by U.S. consumer inertia, patriotism (not saying that's a bad thing), and ultra conservative attitudes in the GA market, especially in the USA where you could stick a pair of wings onto a Zanussi washing machine and quite a lot of GA pilots would think it looks really good. In fact it is quite possible that "Flying" Magazine would do a perfectly straight faced review of it, so long as it flew well.
Cessna have been kept in business by there being little else for the circuit bashing market, and by numerous short field / utility applications.
Piper are dead. They are kept going by spares production for the huge PA28 fleet.
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More than one in one hundred Cirrus aircraft to leave the factory have been lost in a FATAL accident.
There are very complex factors behind that, but the truth is undeniable.
There are very complex factors behind that, but the truth is undeniable.
There have been a total of 55 Cirrus Fatal accidents since production started of the SR, Fatal No 55 was an Accident that occurred Friday, September 11, 2009 in Rock Hill, SC, USA
Pilot appeared to lose control or turn back on take off and impact the runway at a very high speed resulting in a fire and death of Pilot Skipper Beck.
Preliminary NTSB report ERA09FA515
The original poster asked about the safety of this type of aircraft and I hope he has gained some facts to make a rational decision, there is so much misinformation.
Last edited by 007helicopter; 25th Oct 2009 at 22:54. Reason: edit typo
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The spamcan market, as in going from A to B, has been dead on its feet for years. It's been kept standing up by U.S. consumer inertia, patriotism (not saying that's a bad thing), and ultra conservative attitudes in the GA market, especially in the USA
What we are seeing is mirrored by what happened in commercial aviation. A brand new airliner looks about the same and has about the same performance (except fuel burn) as a 50 year old one. It's on the inside it looks totally different.
In my view, you don't tell a modern aircraft from an obsolete one by looking at how far its rivets protrude. You look at what's on its panel. And there, interestingly, I think the US is way ahead of everyone else when it comes to embracing and levaraging new technology. Think about GPS approaches, think about weather and traffic data links.
Furthermore, if you buy a Cessna today, you can even choose: Brand new airframe design and brand new cockpit, or well tried airframe design and brand new cockpit. C182T or 350; they are both availale.
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I am surprised Cessna's fly at all. To me they are like sitting in a goldfish bowl. If it was a case of flying Cessna's or not at all, I'd opt for not at all.
I now fly an SR22 which I obviously love to bits but I can't knock the Cessna.
A class training aircraft.
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I started out flying aeros in just that - a very good aircraft indeed particularly as it taught you so well the importance of conserving energy and of flying accurately. If you didnt there were very few reserves of horses or handling to make it look pretty. and shirley that is no bad thing for a trainer.
and shirley that is no bad thing for a trainer.
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I have to jump in here. It's way too much fun.
Has anybody read the Cirrus POH ? That's not how I deal with problems.
They work with you not to pull the chute and to use your checklist. But every checklist ends with "pull the chute".
That summarizes the whole plane, the Cirrus plane is designed around marketing.
The only thing that I find good about the whole Cirrus ordeal is that it gave a lot of money to TAT so they could prove to the GA industry that WOTLOP is the way to run your engine.
--
Aviation Consumer :
"The cirrus accident record can be summed in a single word: disapointing"
The fleetwide fatal rate for Cirrus is 2.2/100.000 compared to a GA fatal rate of 1.2/100.000 according tot he NTSB
Has anybody read the Cirrus POH ? That's not how I deal with problems.
They work with you not to pull the chute and to use your checklist. But every checklist ends with "pull the chute".
That summarizes the whole plane, the Cirrus plane is designed around marketing.
The only thing that I find good about the whole Cirrus ordeal is that it gave a lot of money to TAT so they could prove to the GA industry that WOTLOP is the way to run your engine.
--
Aviation Consumer :
"The cirrus accident record can be summed in a single word: disapointing"
The fleetwide fatal rate for Cirrus is 2.2/100.000 compared to a GA fatal rate of 1.2/100.000 according tot he NTSB
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Cirrus allmost half way around the world ferry flight
Leaving EGTO Rochester in Kent tomorrow as P2 on a ferry flight to Saudi Arabia in a brand new SR22 G3 Turbo, Chris Baker has flown it from the factory in Duluth on the 4th of November, check the pictures on his facebook if interested Login | Facebook
So tomorrow pm Naples, the following day fuel in Crete and then DCT Jordan where I will have to get out due to no Saudi visa.
Still a great trip which demonstrates the utility of this aircraft.
So tomorrow pm Naples, the following day fuel in Crete and then DCT Jordan where I will have to get out due to no Saudi visa.
Still a great trip which demonstrates the utility of this aircraft.
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The only thing that I find good about the whole Cirrus ordeal
.. .. .. what was that, Mooney have stopped production.
Thing is either the marketing is very very good, their are a lot of very disappointed owners, or the product is not that bad - of course they could have bought a Mooney, but then again they didnt.
only kidding.As I have already said the Mooney is very good, I think the Cirrus has the edge but as always it doesnt suite everyone.
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SR22
Wow, I just saw this thread. So much info and some of it is almost correct!
Anyone who wants to stall an airplane and take it down be my guest but I'm not going along for the ride. When done within the POH limitations the chute has a great record. It is all about total kinetic energy and you have to include the forward velocity of the plane in the stall. As for why it is there, you have to have a one-on-one conversation with Alan Klapmeier and hear about his argument with his brother Dale to understand why it is standard. Oh, along the way you will hear about the mid-air he survived. I gather it made an impression on him. What I like about the chute is know it is there at night and when flying over low IFR.
I love the look of the Columbia. The Mooney is very efficient. The Cirrus is more comfortable inside with more room. Physics is physics and the Cirrus loses a little due to that and its fixed gear. That doesn't make any of them bad. I like the Mooney for efficiency. I think the Columbia is one of the prettiest planes out there. As far as the view out of the plane the Cirrus is better than either the Mooney or Columbia but not as good as the Diamond.
Handling is generally great. Roll is quick which is great for VFR flight but touchier in IFR. Trim is a pain and I would love a wheel like a 172. With a lot of practice you get it down but it is the LAST thing that gets easy and hand flying IFR is more of a pain than necessary due to it. I find the Columbia better as a stable IFR platform.
You need to know the systems. What else is new? I never found the Garmin 430W intuitive. My wife hates Perspective (G1000) but loves R9. Whichever system it is, any modern plane involves systems management.
Cirrus aircraft are FLOWN. Just look on Flightaware to get an idea of the planes in the system. Flightaware doesn't show VFR flights so it is more a measure of which planes are being used for long trips and poor weather flying. When you compare fatal accidents between types it is interesting to look at how many of each are in the system on a given day.
As for efficiency my trip this past weekend was at 14K' at 11.5 GPH with a TAS of about 160 kts. I am sure a Mooney can do a lot better but then again that's not bad for the wheels sticking down.
A common fallacy about accidents during the early years of the Cirrus was that they were from low time pilots. Actually many were high time. There was a time in type correlation (by definition since the plane was new) but not one to overall experience. The early accident rate was high but statistically meaningless. The current rate tends to match other high performance aircraft like Mooney, Bonanza etc. I think the 210 may be a little higher. All of this is hard to assess since no one knows exact flight hours for the different aircraft types.
The wing doesn't like ice. That is true of any high speed laminar flow wing. TKS on the non-FIKI planes is a get out of jail free card at best.
The side yoke is just a center yoke, remove one handle, center the other, move it all to the side. Everyone thinks it will take a long time but it doesn't. Control is precise if a bit numb due to the spring centering removing some of the feel generated by air pressure against the control surfaces.
Autopilot concerns are no different than any other plane with a rate based autopilot if flying a Cirrus with the Stec 55X. If flying one with the GFC700 then you have an awesome autopilot and the ability to do indicated airspeed climbs which removes autopilot stall concerns. The upcoming Avidyne DFC100 will add envelope protection i.e. it will drop the nose of the plane to prevent a stall or shallow descent to prevent exceeding Vne.
The key to slowing a Cirrus down is getting flaps in even if you have to climb to do it. The turbos are easier due to the big fat composite prop which acts like a speed brake. That said, I flew a Columbia with speed brakes and I loved them.
My favorite Cirrus feature? It got my wife interested in flying. It is the plane she wanted. Now she flies as much or more than I do. She insisted we get our own plane. When offered a new car/truck or an R9 avionics upgrade she picked R9. For that I am eternally grateful to Cirrus.
Paul
Anyone who wants to stall an airplane and take it down be my guest but I'm not going along for the ride. When done within the POH limitations the chute has a great record. It is all about total kinetic energy and you have to include the forward velocity of the plane in the stall. As for why it is there, you have to have a one-on-one conversation with Alan Klapmeier and hear about his argument with his brother Dale to understand why it is standard. Oh, along the way you will hear about the mid-air he survived. I gather it made an impression on him. What I like about the chute is know it is there at night and when flying over low IFR.
I love the look of the Columbia. The Mooney is very efficient. The Cirrus is more comfortable inside with more room. Physics is physics and the Cirrus loses a little due to that and its fixed gear. That doesn't make any of them bad. I like the Mooney for efficiency. I think the Columbia is one of the prettiest planes out there. As far as the view out of the plane the Cirrus is better than either the Mooney or Columbia but not as good as the Diamond.
Handling is generally great. Roll is quick which is great for VFR flight but touchier in IFR. Trim is a pain and I would love a wheel like a 172. With a lot of practice you get it down but it is the LAST thing that gets easy and hand flying IFR is more of a pain than necessary due to it. I find the Columbia better as a stable IFR platform.
You need to know the systems. What else is new? I never found the Garmin 430W intuitive. My wife hates Perspective (G1000) but loves R9. Whichever system it is, any modern plane involves systems management.
Cirrus aircraft are FLOWN. Just look on Flightaware to get an idea of the planes in the system. Flightaware doesn't show VFR flights so it is more a measure of which planes are being used for long trips and poor weather flying. When you compare fatal accidents between types it is interesting to look at how many of each are in the system on a given day.
As for efficiency my trip this past weekend was at 14K' at 11.5 GPH with a TAS of about 160 kts. I am sure a Mooney can do a lot better but then again that's not bad for the wheels sticking down.
A common fallacy about accidents during the early years of the Cirrus was that they were from low time pilots. Actually many were high time. There was a time in type correlation (by definition since the plane was new) but not one to overall experience. The early accident rate was high but statistically meaningless. The current rate tends to match other high performance aircraft like Mooney, Bonanza etc. I think the 210 may be a little higher. All of this is hard to assess since no one knows exact flight hours for the different aircraft types.
The wing doesn't like ice. That is true of any high speed laminar flow wing. TKS on the non-FIKI planes is a get out of jail free card at best.
The side yoke is just a center yoke, remove one handle, center the other, move it all to the side. Everyone thinks it will take a long time but it doesn't. Control is precise if a bit numb due to the spring centering removing some of the feel generated by air pressure against the control surfaces.
Autopilot concerns are no different than any other plane with a rate based autopilot if flying a Cirrus with the Stec 55X. If flying one with the GFC700 then you have an awesome autopilot and the ability to do indicated airspeed climbs which removes autopilot stall concerns. The upcoming Avidyne DFC100 will add envelope protection i.e. it will drop the nose of the plane to prevent a stall or shallow descent to prevent exceeding Vne.
The key to slowing a Cirrus down is getting flaps in even if you have to climb to do it. The turbos are easier due to the big fat composite prop which acts like a speed brake. That said, I flew a Columbia with speed brakes and I loved them.
My favorite Cirrus feature? It got my wife interested in flying. It is the plane she wanted. Now she flies as much or more than I do. She insisted we get our own plane. When offered a new car/truck or an R9 avionics upgrade she picked R9. For that I am eternally grateful to Cirrus.
Paul
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That doesn't take the fact away that Cirrus planes are
* badly build, have a low finishing quality
* Insurance is higher on Cirrus than on other GA planes (why would that be hu?)
* many high time pilots crashed their cirrus while low and slow
* have high post-crash fires
* are difficult to land in a crosswind
* count too much on the parachute (example, according to the Poh: engine failure ? Pull the chute !! I don't call that dealing with emergencies, for cirrus it is)
Spin: Pull the Chute
Ice: Pull the chute
Engine Failure: Pull the Chute
Disorientation: Pull the Chute
* Cirrus airframe life limit is 15.000hours
A cirrus that has 400 hours for example looks beat up, inside and outside.
And the most important thing, which many seems to forget :
ALL CIRRUS AIRPLANES HAVE A LIFETIME LIMIT ON THE BRS PARACHUTE OF 10 YEARS
Even worse, the price to replace the BRS and the problems of the top of the fuselage that needs to be re-done is NOT KNOWN YET.
I bet the marketing guys at Cirrus put that really into a small font.
And I don't hear the Cirrus lovers talk about that.
I have to give them kudos to selling these birds in huge numbers. Aldo 2009 wasn't that good.
2009 deliveries cirrus including third quarter 09 : 189
2008 deliveries cirrus : 549
2007 deliveries cirrus : 710
2006 deliveries cirrus : 721
2005 deliveries cirrus : 600
But again, numbers Mooney will never get anymore. Never ever. And kudos to the cirrus marketing machine. My meaning is just that if all the facts would have been known to potential buyers they would have bought a real plane, like a Mooney or like a Bonanza.
* badly build, have a low finishing quality
* Insurance is higher on Cirrus than on other GA planes (why would that be hu?)
* many high time pilots crashed their cirrus while low and slow
* have high post-crash fires
* are difficult to land in a crosswind
* count too much on the parachute (example, according to the Poh: engine failure ? Pull the chute !! I don't call that dealing with emergencies, for cirrus it is)
Spin: Pull the Chute
Ice: Pull the chute
Engine Failure: Pull the Chute
Disorientation: Pull the Chute
* Cirrus airframe life limit is 15.000hours
A cirrus that has 400 hours for example looks beat up, inside and outside.
And the most important thing, which many seems to forget :
ALL CIRRUS AIRPLANES HAVE A LIFETIME LIMIT ON THE BRS PARACHUTE OF 10 YEARS
Even worse, the price to replace the BRS and the problems of the top of the fuselage that needs to be re-done is NOT KNOWN YET.
I bet the marketing guys at Cirrus put that really into a small font.
And I don't hear the Cirrus lovers talk about that.
I have to give them kudos to selling these birds in huge numbers. Aldo 2009 wasn't that good.
2009 deliveries cirrus including third quarter 09 : 189
2008 deliveries cirrus : 549
2007 deliveries cirrus : 710
2006 deliveries cirrus : 721
2005 deliveries cirrus : 600
But again, numbers Mooney will never get anymore. Never ever. And kudos to the cirrus marketing machine. My meaning is just that if all the facts would have been known to potential buyers they would have bought a real plane, like a Mooney or like a Bonanza.
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The Cirrus is the logical choice for somebody buying new - not a lot of options in the piston market!
If that is LOP, you must have a turbo engine to do that at 14k. If I (TB20) was able to to 11.5GPH at 14k I would be doing (ISA assumed) 172kt TAS. Your lower figure is presumably a combination of fixed gear and the turbo engine being a bit less efficient (I don't know what IAS a TB21 does at 11.5GPH but I know it is less than the TB20).
As for efficiency my trip this past weekend was at 14K' at 11.5 GPH with a TAS of about 160 kts. I am sure a Mooney can do a lot better but then again that's not bad for the wheels sticking down.