Light aircraft down in Dundee
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,434
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From: Scotland
With the amount of flak that Vince is getting I'm beginning to feel a little sorry for the poor sod.
Vince. No doubt you will soon be deluged with books from the various authorities that you have upset, may I suggest you read a book, if you have time between interviews of course. It is entitled "The Killing Zone" by Paul A Craig. How & why Pilots Die.
It is an American book but applicable to any part of the world, or even the planet that you come from.
The basic gist of most of it is. Do not leave your comfort zone until you are very familiar with the current edges of it. I am quite serious when I say it should be read as part of the syllabus alongside the training manuals 2 4 6 & 7.
Perhaps you should read it as you next consider planning such a trip. 200+ nm with the latter part over hostile injun territory, in an a/c with a known fuel delivery problem under certain circumstances. To a destination that you had to be at, with a deadline, & with very few hours under your belt. The weather over most of Fife that day was not good with rain squalls & low cloud.
The pictures are great by the way, but there were about 50nm of views like that ahead of you & each way sideways, absolutely nowhere to put it.
This may be why many of us are so speechless at your intentions let alone performance.
Vince. No doubt you will soon be deluged with books from the various authorities that you have upset, may I suggest you read a book, if you have time between interviews of course. It is entitled "The Killing Zone" by Paul A Craig. How & why Pilots Die.
It is an American book but applicable to any part of the world, or even the planet that you come from.
The basic gist of most of it is. Do not leave your comfort zone until you are very familiar with the current edges of it. I am quite serious when I say it should be read as part of the syllabus alongside the training manuals 2 4 6 & 7.
Perhaps you should read it as you next consider planning such a trip. 200+ nm with the latter part over hostile injun territory, in an a/c with a known fuel delivery problem under certain circumstances. To a destination that you had to be at, with a deadline, & with very few hours under your belt. The weather over most of Fife that day was not good with rain squalls & low cloud.
The pictures are great by the way, but there were about 50nm of views like that ahead of you & each way sideways, absolutely nowhere to put it.
This may be why many of us are so speechless at your intentions let alone performance.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 429
Likes: 5
From: West Wiltshire, UK
So the next question would be how much fuel did the RH sightglass show at that point in time?
Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?
Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.
But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.
A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.
A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.
One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.
Another question would be how much experience you had flying the CT at similar fuel levels?
Given that in a right turn the wing would be up, one would think that it would take significant uncoordinated flight to unport that tank outlet, perhaps an uncoordinated levelling off interrupted the fuel flow.
But remember we are talking about the last 5 litres in a 65 l. tank. This is where interruptions in fuel feed can be expected.
A CTSW manual on the web (the accident a/c manual may be different) cites fuel capacity of 130 l. and usable fuel as 124 l. That would mean a total quantity indication of 6 l. is effectively empty.
A gauge inaccuracy of plus or minus 2 to 3 litres in a 65 l. tank becomes critical at this stage in the proceedings.
One can also suspect that such a low unusable fuel quantity requires coordinated flight and that any imbalance could considerably increase the quantity of unuseable fuel.
Given the long history of fuel cross feed problems on this aircraft type, and the firmly worded warning about the consequences of flying it out of balance when low on fuel, I find the statement that it's OK down to 1/2 litre frankly unbelievable.
Every high wing microlight with wing tanks that I know of (with the exception of one that sensibly has a conical collector tank fitted in the fuselage) tends to suffer from fuel flow difficulties of some sort when the wings aren't level or at low fuel levels. If it were me, I'd have not been comfortable continuing my flight with less than about 10 litres or so remaining. I believe that the US manual, which gives 124 litres as the usable fuel, from a nominal 130 litre capacity is a reasonable figure. Quite why it isn't in the TADS for the UK microlight version is a bit of a mystery.
VP
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: NE Scotland
Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?
No go-around. Trust me, I should know.
I think the confusion came from reports of him flying PAST Dundee before turning back and people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.
No go-around. Trust me, I should know.
I think the confusion came from reports of him flying PAST Dundee before turning back and people getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.
Last edited by wingnut56; 18th August 2009 at 16:33. Reason: Adding quote
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Crash one
Not quite that bad, you have a couple of usable ones in the lin of dee area , a decent clear track at Derry lodge and once your over the other side the spey valley has some options.
Going up the A9 is just as bad with big sections having nothing but the road.
But in essence you are correct and the same applies for alot of the highland region
Not quite that bad, you have a couple of usable ones in the lin of dee area , a decent clear track at Derry lodge and once your over the other side the spey valley has some options.
Going up the A9 is just as bad with big sections having nothing but the road.
But in essence you are correct and the same applies for alot of the highland region
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: Dundee
'Biggles' did not do a go-around at Dundee - the closest he got was the tree 3nm from the airfield. Some have said he did do a go around, others say not. So which is it?
A friend i spoke to over the weekend says he certainly didnt do a go around at Dundee. Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare. Last thing they heard was Mayday, Mayday, now out of fuel! No further transmissions were heard!!!
I do have to admit to being of the non flying community but i have had a fair few flights out of Dundee. I do however feel that i can pick out the wheat fae the chaff as it were and all i can say is, good luck in keeping this story up Vince! I hope, along with others i have spoken to, that the AAIB will take a very good look at this tale!
I just wonder though, when you had the engine failure Vince, why didnt you turn towards the airport?
And why did you not like the look of the 200-300ft oil rigs and transmitter you would have flown in between? The Dundee joining traffic manages to miss them all the time! And as Timothy will confirm, Dundee Airport has a very useful Hovercraft if things get that wrong over the water!!!
A friend i spoke to over the weekend says he certainly didnt do a go around at Dundee. Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare. Last thing they heard was Mayday, Mayday, now out of fuel! No further transmissions were heard!!!
I do have to admit to being of the non flying community but i have had a fair few flights out of Dundee. I do however feel that i can pick out the wheat fae the chaff as it were and all i can say is, good luck in keeping this story up Vince! I hope, along with others i have spoken to, that the AAIB will take a very good look at this tale!
I just wonder though, when you had the engine failure Vince, why didnt you turn towards the airport?
And why did you not like the look of the 200-300ft oil rigs and transmitter you would have flown in between? The Dundee joining traffic manages to miss them all the time! And as Timothy will confirm, Dundee Airport has a very useful Hovercraft if things get that wrong over the water!!!
They may well just ask the pilot for a written report which is then regurgitated in a bulletin.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
Nothing wrong with being not happy with the "risk factor" I certainly don't consider it a wimp to not be happy with doing it.
I have been flying that area of scotland for getting on for 7 years now and when I was instructing full time I was doing the trip to Dundee sometimes 3 times a week.
And getting brought up in Aberdeen I have been walking in those Glens for 20 odd years.
Personally I wouldn't go north of Perth/Dundee without 2.5 hours of gas on board. And you might ask why so much. Basically if the runway gets shut at Inv I have enough to go up to Dornock and wait there. If the wx goes to poo I have enough to get to Abz or at a push back to an ILS in the central belt.
I have been flying that area of scotland for getting on for 7 years now and when I was instructing full time I was doing the trip to Dundee sometimes 3 times a week.
And getting brought up in Aberdeen I have been walking in those Glens for 20 odd years.
Personally I wouldn't go north of Perth/Dundee without 2.5 hours of gas on board. And you might ask why so much. Basically if the runway gets shut at Inv I have enough to go up to Dornock and wait there. If the wx goes to poo I have enough to get to Abz or at a push back to an ILS in the central belt.
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3
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From: NE Scotland
'Aparently turned away from the field at the Castle, with a couple of thousand feet to spare.'
More duff gen I'm afraid. Never got near the castle. If he had there's
a lovely long beach or grass strip to land on.
.....a few trees to aim at though.
More duff gen I'm afraid. Never got near the castle. If he had there's
a lovely long beach or grass strip to land on.
.....a few trees to aim at though.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
From: UK
Just a thought - the AAIB aren't obliged to investigate this accident. They may well just ask the pilot for a written report which is then regurgitated in a bulletin.
Never mind the r/t transcript, I'd be more interested to hear the phone transcripts/recordings between Scottish and Edinburgh!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
Interesting to think about the AAIB. When i first saw the story I thought, ah he's misjudged a glide etc, then he opened his mouth. Im sure the thread would of only been a few pages long.
I do wonder if the AAIB are in a similar boat now, if Vince hadnt opened his mouth he would of got away with just the pilot report.
Vince, Surly this whole thing has at least made you learn a few things?! Have you insurers said if they are going to pay out yet?
I do wonder if the AAIB are in a similar boat now, if Vince hadnt opened his mouth he would of got away with just the pilot report.
Vince, Surly this whole thing has at least made you learn a few things?! Have you insurers said if they are going to pay out yet?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 1
From: Cambridge, England, EU
I know I have learn't that if ever I am unfortunate to have an incident and survive I will not be sharing the experience on PPRuNe let alone the press.
Vince for what its worth "good luck"
Vince for what its worth "good luck"
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
I dont think Vince is at fault for talking on here, just talking in so much detail. If he hadnt of spoke to the press or had simply said, the engine cut out, lets wait for the AAIB report it would of all blown over...
Lets just wait for 6 months time when the report comes out...
Lets just wait for 6 months time when the report comes out...