Light aircraft down in Dundee
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pints galore
What are the major points contributing to this accident ,and how to help pilots avoid them.
There,is that serious enough,and I'm just off to the pub,so how will I know if you've bought my pint?
Lister
There,is that serious enough,and I'm just off to the pub,so how will I know if you've bought my pint?
Lister
What a shame that our hero was headed north. I wonder what the outcome would have been if he had been tooling around in the London TMA at 9,000 ft? It is certainly a fascinating thought.
Were the trained killers at Leuchars on standby or what?
Were the trained killers at Leuchars on standby or what?
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I have spoken to the AAIB yesterday and today and they are getting on with the job. I have referred them initially to my posts on this site since it seems pointless writing another report when most of the detail is available in serial form.
Whilst that's still a fair way from getting locked up for contempt, it certainly looks like a deliberate step in the right direction!
There's no way this guy is for real, it's a wind-up.
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I would be at all surprised to see our man Biggles having the last laugh!
He's a mason - so no prosecution!
He's a 'professional' mentor - paid for out of public funds.
From one of the sites associated with him "Mentoring, particularly in its traditional sense, enables an individual to follow in the path of an older and wiser colleague who can pass on knowledge, experience and open doors to otherwise out-of-reach opportunities. Coaching on the other hand is not generally performed on the basis that the coach has direct experience of their client’s formal occupational role unless the coaching is specific and skills focused.
Having said this, there are professionals offering their services under the name of mentoring who have no direct experience of their clients' roles and others offering services under the name of coaching who do. So the moral of the story is, it is essential to determine what your needs are and to ensure that the coach or mentor can supply you with the type and level of service you require, whatever that service is called."
He could well end up 'helping' many of the people in this profession!!!! And even better at the expense of the public purse - what rich irony!
Quite why a qualified(?) 'mentor' appears to be so resistant to learning or absorbing knowledge largely reinforces many of my prejudices about the sort of people who work for these semi-quangoes.
My summary - he was operating just beyond the level of his abilities, which normally would just expand his experience - if he got away with it. A fundamental oversight - fuel quantity - meant his capabilities reached breaking point and his survival was not down to rational thought - just dumb luck. As for his media peerformance? Presumably not a mentor in that area!
He's a mason - so no prosecution!
He's a 'professional' mentor - paid for out of public funds.
From one of the sites associated with him "Mentoring, particularly in its traditional sense, enables an individual to follow in the path of an older and wiser colleague who can pass on knowledge, experience and open doors to otherwise out-of-reach opportunities. Coaching on the other hand is not generally performed on the basis that the coach has direct experience of their client’s formal occupational role unless the coaching is specific and skills focused.
Having said this, there are professionals offering their services under the name of mentoring who have no direct experience of their clients' roles and others offering services under the name of coaching who do. So the moral of the story is, it is essential to determine what your needs are and to ensure that the coach or mentor can supply you with the type and level of service you require, whatever that service is called."
He could well end up 'helping' many of the people in this profession!!!! And even better at the expense of the public purse - what rich irony!
Quite why a qualified(?) 'mentor' appears to be so resistant to learning or absorbing knowledge largely reinforces many of my prejudices about the sort of people who work for these semi-quangoes.
My summary - he was operating just beyond the level of his abilities, which normally would just expand his experience - if he got away with it. A fundamental oversight - fuel quantity - meant his capabilities reached breaking point and his survival was not down to rational thought - just dumb luck. As for his media peerformance? Presumably not a mentor in that area!
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Although your flex wings are a pain in the arse in the circuit and I wish you could strap something to them to paint on primary radar
Also, did I not read about one of the flex wings from Perth slamming into a hill top near glenshee last year - narrowly missing some walkers/climbers. I don't recall that was a forced landing but just stupendously dim flying. Was this man named and shamed?
Apologies to all if this was done to death at the time but I think I may have been overseas at the time it happened and can't remember where I read about it. I will now search for an AAIB report but, on the face of it that was an avoidable CFIT which endangered third parties and was no doubt also a breach of rule 5 ( object, person or structure).
Seems that maybe speaking to the medja is the reason for criticism of VH.
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Vince,
How did you run out of (or low on) fuel in an aircraft with just you on board (thus allowing full fuel with weight to spare) and such a large fuel tank?
You mentioned that if the engine had failed 30 seconds, before or after, there would have been better options, in that case why were you so low?
Your decision for flying straight into the tree seems to me quite logical, you mention that the fairways have other obstructions so it makes sense in such a situation to opt for the worst possible outcome straight away as everything can then only get better. However why then fly into it at 70kts?
Finally, do you hope to win a Darwin award this year? The Darwin Awards
How did you run out of (or low on) fuel in an aircraft with just you on board (thus allowing full fuel with weight to spare) and such a large fuel tank?
You mentioned that if the engine had failed 30 seconds, before or after, there would have been better options, in that case why were you so low?
Your decision for flying straight into the tree seems to me quite logical, you mention that the fairways have other obstructions so it makes sense in such a situation to opt for the worst possible outcome straight away as everything can then only get better. However why then fly into it at 70kts?
Finally, do you hope to win a Darwin award this year? The Darwin Awards
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Was the guy who flew into Glas Maol named and shamed? Well after a big team effort in retrieving his aircraft he was awarded a wooden toilet seat which sits on the club house wall - I think you could say he was!
Narrowly missing walkers is too much like media 'plummeting' and 'avoiding the school' which is only about 20 odd miles away!!
Narrowly missing walkers is too much like media 'plummeting' and 'avoiding the school' which is only about 20 odd miles away!!
Vince has, quite rightly, pointed out that much of the talk here is pure supposition, based on reporting in the media (with all the inaccuracy that inevitably brings), However, we have been given enough information from several reputable sources, including Vince himself, to be convinced that Vince made several serious errors of judgement, although it's equally clear that poor old Vince is completely oblivious to his own failings.
I'm more than slightly surprised that Vince hasn't answered any of the core questions raised, but instead has chosen to behave rather like a politician in avoiding the key issues, this says as much about his approach to flight safety as any of his actions on that fateful flight.
Clearly Vince was fairly ill-prepared for this long trip. He seems to have not understood some very basic things, like the way his aircraft's fuel system worked, or the need for proper fuel planning, with safe reserves. His knowledge of general airmanship matters, like how to safely cross areas of controlled airspace, use the radio, his understanding of simple fundamentals like flight levels and the law as it applies to his aircraft type and licence all seem to have been sadly lacking.
Frankly I'd like to see his instructor/examiner come on here and explain how Vince came to be given a licence with such a poor knowledge of these basics. Perhaps Vince managed to bamboozle him/her too.
For those that hold out some hope that all will become clear in the AAIB report, I hate to disillusion you, but I doubt they will even so much as glance at the wreckage or visit the scene. The severity of the accident wouldn't warrant any sort of formal investigation, I'm sure, so will probably be very largely based on the hype that Vince spouts forth.
This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........
VP
I'm more than slightly surprised that Vince hasn't answered any of the core questions raised, but instead has chosen to behave rather like a politician in avoiding the key issues, this says as much about his approach to flight safety as any of his actions on that fateful flight.
Clearly Vince was fairly ill-prepared for this long trip. He seems to have not understood some very basic things, like the way his aircraft's fuel system worked, or the need for proper fuel planning, with safe reserves. His knowledge of general airmanship matters, like how to safely cross areas of controlled airspace, use the radio, his understanding of simple fundamentals like flight levels and the law as it applies to his aircraft type and licence all seem to have been sadly lacking.
Frankly I'd like to see his instructor/examiner come on here and explain how Vince came to be given a licence with such a poor knowledge of these basics. Perhaps Vince managed to bamboozle him/her too.
For those that hold out some hope that all will become clear in the AAIB report, I hate to disillusion you, but I doubt they will even so much as glance at the wreckage or visit the scene. The severity of the accident wouldn't warrant any sort of formal investigation, I'm sure, so will probably be very largely based on the hype that Vince spouts forth.
This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........
VP
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This is a great shame, as I think there are some good lessons to be learned from Vince's moment of fame. The most important lesson is perhaps to ignore Vince's proffered wisdom that it's a good thing to emulate the hero from a work of fiction and choose to execute a semi-controlled crash into a tree. The second most important lesson is to remember that powered aeroplanes need a certain minimum amount of fuel remaining in order to continue to fly...........
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People keep going on about his instructor, I know vince and his instructor and i know it took many hours (i think it was 70) to pass his NPPL (M) i did mine in 25 hours at the same time as vince with the same instructor (I now have a JAR PPL)
Soon after Vince passed he "disapeared"
He came back a few weeks ago after the few years absence and asked his instructor to sign him off. His instructor REFUSED as he needed further training and Vince got the hump and "found someone else" to sign him off. No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.
just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??
I have flown G-VINH and it has one of these all in one lcd type set ups (not an EFIS) and it is tricky setting QNH
Soon after Vince passed he "disapeared"
He came back a few weeks ago after the few years absence and asked his instructor to sign him off. His instructor REFUSED as he needed further training and Vince got the hump and "found someone else" to sign him off. No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.
just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??
I have flown G-VINH and it has one of these all in one lcd type set ups (not an EFIS) and it is tricky setting QNH
Last edited by C42; 19th Aug 2009 at 23:18.
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Hey guys just spent the day wandering the streets of Glasgow on a bit of R and R...had to come back to 3 pages of missed post's....still not re-ordered my Beano as the crack on here too good .
.....Oh well its back to work for me tommorrow so for those of you that looking for a good "Basic service" just give me a call....safe flying one and all my fellow Jock aviators..
.....Oh well its back to work for me tommorrow so for those of you that looking for a good "Basic service" just give me a call....safe flying one and all my fellow Jock aviators..
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Right every ppruner who uses Scottish info tomorrow has to fit the word "biggles" into thier RT at some point. And fishbang has to report back how many do it
I hope you nipped into the Horse shoe for a cheeky one at lunch time fish.
I hope you nipped into the Horse shoe for a cheeky one at lunch time fish.
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just a thought, what was the Qnh/Qfe at dundee as Vince may have still beem on 1013 and could explain why he was scared of the bridges etc as he could have been much lower than his instruments were showing??
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Pilot X had always had a love of adventure.
As a child he had his hero in Biggles and these heros of the past had influenced his dreams of being like them.
At a later stage in his life he took up flying. he was a slow student taking 70 hrs to achieve his NPPL (M) His instructor had concerns about pilot Xs natural ability. But Pilot X blotted out those concerns as nothing would ruin his dreams.
Nevertheless once armed with a licence Pilot X was now equipt to live out those dreams.
He had a need to visit Scotland and with this in mind hatched a plan to fly himself there.
Taking advice he was warned about a front which may cause him problems but reckoned he could beat this front before it arrived from the west.
Having said he was a slow learner there were many gaps in his knowledge but he had a licence he had an aircraft and off he jolly well would go.
At first all was OK he trundeled along VFR at 2500 to 3000 feet where most microlight type aircraft operated. Pilot X was enjoying himself and imagined the route would be the same all the way.
Further along the track he was alarmed that the visibility had dropped and that his aircraft was punching through bits of scud cloud. he climbed and suddenly the visibility was good he was VFR with good sight of the ground way below. He felt like a serious pilot, good descision to climb he relaxed and enjoyed the flight again.
Blast that cloud he had climbed over had joined him again, had got thicker and the holes were not as frequent.
He had no cloud flying ability and in desperation climbed again trying to stay visual. He calmed himself with the thought that this was localised and would improve ahead.
Easy to drop down again when things improved so he plodded on.
Talking to Scottish they cleared him at FL80. He was alarmed as the RT started to sound unfamiliar and he didnt want to sound like an idiot. Blast again the clouds were again touching him. He instinctively pulled back and was at FL83. Pilot X asked for higher and was offered FL100.
He was in a mess and he knew it but to admit it would be to admit to himself that he wasnt up to the job. He would try and bluff his way a bit longer.
he was starting to panic with all the unfamiliar RT and knew he was flying in conditions where he was out of his depth. he was stressed out could not think clearely.
Low and behold he saw a gap and the ground. His overwhelming desire was to get down under the cloud and back in his comfort zone. God he wished he was on the ground.
" Cleared to FL70 " Pilot X panicked FL70 was not enough he need to be VFR and fast. He descended and carried on while scaring himself in clouds past FL70 and on down.
Pilot X was told to contact Edinburugh but by know all his mental capacity was involved in flying the aircraft. He was equally scared to talk to someone who would tell him to do something he didnt want to do again.
Pilot X was now so confused that his overwhelming desire was to get on the ground. His mind was fuddled, basic stuff he knew no longer registered. He was in a slow horror movie where he had become a passenger not the pilot. He reacted to events and did not control them...........
Maybe not the chain of events but a typical chain of events which show how important it is to fly within your own and the aircrafts capability and if you do get a situation you cannot handle to tell ATC who will help. Pride can be a misplaced attitude......
Pace
As a child he had his hero in Biggles and these heros of the past had influenced his dreams of being like them.
At a later stage in his life he took up flying. he was a slow student taking 70 hrs to achieve his NPPL (M) His instructor had concerns about pilot Xs natural ability. But Pilot X blotted out those concerns as nothing would ruin his dreams.
Nevertheless once armed with a licence Pilot X was now equipt to live out those dreams.
He had a need to visit Scotland and with this in mind hatched a plan to fly himself there.
Taking advice he was warned about a front which may cause him problems but reckoned he could beat this front before it arrived from the west.
Having said he was a slow learner there were many gaps in his knowledge but he had a licence he had an aircraft and off he jolly well would go.
At first all was OK he trundeled along VFR at 2500 to 3000 feet where most microlight type aircraft operated. Pilot X was enjoying himself and imagined the route would be the same all the way.
Further along the track he was alarmed that the visibility had dropped and that his aircraft was punching through bits of scud cloud. he climbed and suddenly the visibility was good he was VFR with good sight of the ground way below. He felt like a serious pilot, good descision to climb he relaxed and enjoyed the flight again.
Blast that cloud he had climbed over had joined him again, had got thicker and the holes were not as frequent.
He had no cloud flying ability and in desperation climbed again trying to stay visual. He calmed himself with the thought that this was localised and would improve ahead.
Easy to drop down again when things improved so he plodded on.
Talking to Scottish they cleared him at FL80. He was alarmed as the RT started to sound unfamiliar and he didnt want to sound like an idiot. Blast again the clouds were again touching him. He instinctively pulled back and was at FL83. Pilot X asked for higher and was offered FL100.
He was in a mess and he knew it but to admit it would be to admit to himself that he wasnt up to the job. He would try and bluff his way a bit longer.
he was starting to panic with all the unfamiliar RT and knew he was flying in conditions where he was out of his depth. he was stressed out could not think clearely.
Low and behold he saw a gap and the ground. His overwhelming desire was to get down under the cloud and back in his comfort zone. God he wished he was on the ground.
" Cleared to FL70 " Pilot X panicked FL70 was not enough he need to be VFR and fast. He descended and carried on while scaring himself in clouds past FL70 and on down.
Pilot X was told to contact Edinburugh but by know all his mental capacity was involved in flying the aircraft. He was equally scared to talk to someone who would tell him to do something he didnt want to do again.
Pilot X was now so confused that his overwhelming desire was to get on the ground. His mind was fuddled, basic stuff he knew no longer registered. He was in a slow horror movie where he had become a passenger not the pilot. He reacted to events and did not control them...........
Maybe not the chain of events but a typical chain of events which show how important it is to fly within your own and the aircrafts capability and if you do get a situation you cannot handle to tell ATC who will help. Pride can be a misplaced attitude......
Pace
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No one at our club is aware of the identity of this person as Vince would not tell any one.
BTW Pace that has a ring of truth about it.
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Were you in the cockpit too?
A perfectly plausible scenario. One thing that you don't mention which I am afraid is perhaps relevant, the bit that everyone has missed, are the human factors involved - although strangely the clues are in Vince's postings and in his initial media comment.
He was on his way to visit his daughter after a family bereavement. His mother in law and his duaghters maternal grandmother (I presume) had died only a few days prior to the accident. Perhaps the rush north was to provide comfort to a potentially distressed relative and this may have coloured the pilots judgement on the day - gethereitis, again.
Whatever the level of Pilot X's ability and competency, any stress caused by death of a close family member( I think these were VH's own words) may be an underlying factor which influenced the outcome of the flight. Financial worries, marital strife and the recent loss of a close family member are all listed as reasons to reconsider flying under the I'M SAFE , before going flying, checklist.
Where stress in a contributory factor the PIC is , sadly, often the last the recognise this, indeed, it is difficult to attribute the cause of any such accident to any single human factor.
In flying, you are more likley to be pecked to death by ducks than be eaten by a crocodile! Catastrophic single failures are thankfully a thing of the past (mainly) but a string of small errors can easily bulid up with fatal consequences. I belive there were a string of events driven by perhaps by(unexpectedly?) deteriorating weather, unfamiliar territory ( FLs), and a need to press on with the flight plan ( rather than stopping and replanning).
I do wonder if we have a classic human factors case rather than an incompetent pilot?
Incidentally, I dug out the AAIB report on the flexwing accident at Glas Maol. No evidence of anything other than a perfectly competet pilot ( aged 56) simply not acting within sensible parameters. Stunting around hill tops is not a pastime to be recommended. I have often encountered rotor off the tops of hills - even in benign conditions and once or twice in PA28/C177 have had to apply almost full power to achieve anything other than a slow descent. The report is only two pages long, and didn't seem to involve anything other than the pilots very honest account of his misadventure.
A perfectly plausible scenario. One thing that you don't mention which I am afraid is perhaps relevant, the bit that everyone has missed, are the human factors involved - although strangely the clues are in Vince's postings and in his initial media comment.
He was on his way to visit his daughter after a family bereavement. His mother in law and his duaghters maternal grandmother (I presume) had died only a few days prior to the accident. Perhaps the rush north was to provide comfort to a potentially distressed relative and this may have coloured the pilots judgement on the day - gethereitis, again.
Whatever the level of Pilot X's ability and competency, any stress caused by death of a close family member( I think these were VH's own words) may be an underlying factor which influenced the outcome of the flight. Financial worries, marital strife and the recent loss of a close family member are all listed as reasons to reconsider flying under the I'M SAFE , before going flying, checklist.
Where stress in a contributory factor the PIC is , sadly, often the last the recognise this, indeed, it is difficult to attribute the cause of any such accident to any single human factor.
In flying, you are more likley to be pecked to death by ducks than be eaten by a crocodile! Catastrophic single failures are thankfully a thing of the past (mainly) but a string of small errors can easily bulid up with fatal consequences. I belive there were a string of events driven by perhaps by(unexpectedly?) deteriorating weather, unfamiliar territory ( FLs), and a need to press on with the flight plan ( rather than stopping and replanning).
I do wonder if we have a classic human factors case rather than an incompetent pilot?
Incidentally, I dug out the AAIB report on the flexwing accident at Glas Maol. No evidence of anything other than a perfectly competet pilot ( aged 56) simply not acting within sensible parameters. Stunting around hill tops is not a pastime to be recommended. I have often encountered rotor off the tops of hills - even in benign conditions and once or twice in PA28/C177 have had to apply almost full power to achieve anything other than a slow descent. The report is only two pages long, and didn't seem to involve anything other than the pilots very honest account of his misadventure.