FTOs - rumour vs. libel
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FTOs - rumour vs. libel
Can I just add that anyone who says that [an FTO] are in financial trouble you must be able to back up what you say and not post on 'What you have heard'.
If you do post about their finances then I will be asking for your contact details so if you are not prepared to give them to me then don't bother posting.
Also, if you do post then you must have rock solid evidence to back up your claims or, again, don't bother posting.
If you do post about their finances then I will be asking for your contact details so if you are not prepared to give them to me then don't bother posting.
Also, if you do post then you must have rock solid evidence to back up your claims or, again, don't bother posting.
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I can only assume that Cabair have reacted to the recent postings on pprune related to them, with reference to the same subject as BRL points out. Just seems to be a bit of an extreme knee jerk reaction on the behalf of such a major FTO to a 'rumour' network.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
I can only assume that Cabair have reacted to the recent postings on PPRuNe related to them, with reference to the same subject as BRL points out. Just seems to be a bit of an extreme knee jerk reaction on the behalf of such a major FTO to a 'rumour' network.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
We removed a post that made allegations about Cabair's financial position that were not substantiated with one single iota of evidence. That was the decision of the moderators, made without any pressure from anybody.
By all means post your "views and suggestions", but as BRL says, mud-slinging will not be allowed. If you make an unsubstantiated allegation detrimental to a person or a business, then it will be removed. Simple as that.
SD
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I can only assume that Cabair have reacted to the recent postings on PPRuNe related to them, with reference to the same subject as BRL points out. Just seems to be a bit of an extreme knee jerk reaction on the behalf of such a major FTO to a 'rumour' network.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
It's actually quite scary how the moderators are forced (presumably unwillingly) into this kind of censorship. The forum is simply people with views and suggestions from different bits of evidence which could encourage someone to approach an FTO with caution, which should be the case with any flying school to be fair.
Nothing sinister like Cabair getting on to us or anything like that, my original post is to make sure they don't start throwing legal threats around at us which we don't need. It has been quiet on the legal front here recently and I want it to stay like that.
Of course if they are in trouble you can use this forum to discuss it as much as you like, it's not all one way here as you know.
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In general I enjoy reading and contributing to PPRuNe because lets face it, pilots love to talk about flying or just love to talk.......
I do however seriously dislike some aspects of the network, specifically the idle speculation and gossip in relation to the financial affairs of certain FTO's which appears with frightening regularity. Virtually all of this speculation is offered in public without any substantiation or proof. Comments like ' I know what I saw' or 'heard from a reliable source' do not, in my opinion, warrant a post. They only serve to create an image of a group of gossiping busybodies with little else to do.
Has anyone noticed that the vast majority of the more active members who contribute imeasurably on interesting aviation topics are conspicous in their absence from these less factual debates.
Before anyone reminds me that this is a rumour network let me save you the time. I am fully aware of that and rumour is both productive and informative when it is directed at aviation issues such as ' Piper are rumoured to be tooling up for a relaunch of the PA 38 incorporating a 300 HP engine'. It may or may not be true but it does stimulate some great debate.
On the other hand those rumours which question the viability of a business, and are advanced without proof, only serve to threaten the future of that business, it's employees and customers. It is disinformation of the worst kind. Some use the defence that they are merely trying to warn others before committing funds to training etc and this is admirable, but only if you are in possession of hard evidence.
So if anyone saw a ruck of aeroplanes at a London airfield with their props tied up the other week they were all mirages....
There are so many things wrong with this statement. Why would you jump to conclusions without knowing the reason why. You are also speculating that others reached the same conclusion as you did. An assumption is made that the aircraft have been seized perhaps. But it is exactly that, an assumption, and the true reason could be entirely different.
Moreover, to jeopardise a perfectly healthy business based on a casual observation is irresponsible in the extreme.
Hopefully with some proactive moderation we will see less of this in the future.
I do however seriously dislike some aspects of the network, specifically the idle speculation and gossip in relation to the financial affairs of certain FTO's which appears with frightening regularity. Virtually all of this speculation is offered in public without any substantiation or proof. Comments like ' I know what I saw' or 'heard from a reliable source' do not, in my opinion, warrant a post. They only serve to create an image of a group of gossiping busybodies with little else to do.
Has anyone noticed that the vast majority of the more active members who contribute imeasurably on interesting aviation topics are conspicous in their absence from these less factual debates.
Before anyone reminds me that this is a rumour network let me save you the time. I am fully aware of that and rumour is both productive and informative when it is directed at aviation issues such as ' Piper are rumoured to be tooling up for a relaunch of the PA 38 incorporating a 300 HP engine'. It may or may not be true but it does stimulate some great debate.
On the other hand those rumours which question the viability of a business, and are advanced without proof, only serve to threaten the future of that business, it's employees and customers. It is disinformation of the worst kind. Some use the defence that they are merely trying to warn others before committing funds to training etc and this is admirable, but only if you are in possession of hard evidence.
So if anyone saw a ruck of aeroplanes at a London airfield with their props tied up the other week they were all mirages....
There are so many things wrong with this statement. Why would you jump to conclusions without knowing the reason why. You are also speculating that others reached the same conclusion as you did. An assumption is made that the aircraft have been seized perhaps. But it is exactly that, an assumption, and the true reason could be entirely different.
Moreover, to jeopardise a perfectly healthy business based on a casual observation is irresponsible in the extreme.
Hopefully with some proactive moderation we will see less of this in the future.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Donalk
Edited to add that general advice that urges not paying up front for any hugely expensive aviation training courses is quite legitimate.
SD
Edited to add that general advice that urges not paying up front for any hugely expensive aviation training courses is quite legitimate.
SD
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Piper are rumoured to be tooling up for a relaunch of the PA 38 incorporating a 300 HP engine
Next you will be teasing me it will have a trimmer that works. And doesn't cause students who have never previously used swear words outside proper emergency's ie banging heads etc to use the C word every 2 mins when it does its slipping whirring thing.
PS I think currently every flying school is in Financial hardship the only difference between them all is the level of poo that they are in.
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Donalk,
This is a rumour network, someone posting about aircraft being chained up is worthy of a rumour forum. Granted people posting slanderous information about the financial status of a company is wrong, particularly on such a widely read website as pprune, but you do have to realise that information such as that observed by some forumites is worthy of consideration. Yes, of course if the reader is an educated person and can make his own decisions he will bear that information in mind whilst they do there own research into spending 6k - 80k on flight training.
You accusation about idle speculation/gossip is ridiculous also, what is observed is not gossip or speculation, maybe the additional comments are, but the views and interests are valid. If I consider further training, i'd like to know whether a companies aircraft have been chained up or held in by snow plough (and trust me, from someone thats seen this before, this happens more frequently then people realise in aviation). I do agree that at times some of the posters seem to be people who only fly in windows flight simulator or whatever, but thats just part and parcel of what we have to accept unless we consider censorship by licence, which would preclude student pilots etc.
This is a rumour network, someone posting about aircraft being chained up is worthy of a rumour forum. Granted people posting slanderous information about the financial status of a company is wrong, particularly on such a widely read website as pprune, but you do have to realise that information such as that observed by some forumites is worthy of consideration. Yes, of course if the reader is an educated person and can make his own decisions he will bear that information in mind whilst they do there own research into spending 6k - 80k on flight training.
You accusation about idle speculation/gossip is ridiculous also, what is observed is not gossip or speculation, maybe the additional comments are, but the views and interests are valid. If I consider further training, i'd like to know whether a companies aircraft have been chained up or held in by snow plough (and trust me, from someone thats seen this before, this happens more frequently then people realise in aviation). I do agree that at times some of the posters seem to be people who only fly in windows flight simulator or whatever, but thats just part and parcel of what we have to accept unless we consider censorship by licence, which would preclude student pilots etc.
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L'aviateur
I suspect our opinions are more closely aligned than would appear so at first glance. There are many newsworthy events taking place around the world on a daily basis and I for one am grateful to the many posters who take time to keep us updated. The subsequent informed debates can be both enlightening and useful in decision making.
Observing captive aircraft is worthy of mention, however it is the ensuing debate fuelled by nothing more than speculation, which causes the rumour to grow legs and arms and spiral out of control. Typically then, someone with a grievance, whether valid or not, is given a public platform upon which to vent their spleen. What follows is a one sided argument which is neither useful or entertaining.
In that situation the mods have a duty to provide balance but as they are not privy to the facts surrounding the case can only do this by insisting that posters are in possession of irrefutable evidence. I dont see this as censorship, more of an effort to uphold standards. Those standards exist to provide us with a framework where we can enjoy the forum and derive maximum benefit from it.
These are challenging times for everyone and perhaps more so for flight schools. In the spirit of fair play we should support those organisations who strive to survive and excel. Where hard evidence exists to the contrary, then I agree that in the interests of all concerned it is open season. It would be truly tragic though to witness the death of an organisation by a thousand cuts.
Apologies to all for continuing this off thread subject but I felt a response to L'aviateurs well thought out post was warranted.
I suspect our opinions are more closely aligned than would appear so at first glance. There are many newsworthy events taking place around the world on a daily basis and I for one am grateful to the many posters who take time to keep us updated. The subsequent informed debates can be both enlightening and useful in decision making.
Observing captive aircraft is worthy of mention, however it is the ensuing debate fuelled by nothing more than speculation, which causes the rumour to grow legs and arms and spiral out of control. Typically then, someone with a grievance, whether valid or not, is given a public platform upon which to vent their spleen. What follows is a one sided argument which is neither useful or entertaining.
In that situation the mods have a duty to provide balance but as they are not privy to the facts surrounding the case can only do this by insisting that posters are in possession of irrefutable evidence. I dont see this as censorship, more of an effort to uphold standards. Those standards exist to provide us with a framework where we can enjoy the forum and derive maximum benefit from it.
These are challenging times for everyone and perhaps more so for flight schools. In the spirit of fair play we should support those organisations who strive to survive and excel. Where hard evidence exists to the contrary, then I agree that in the interests of all concerned it is open season. It would be truly tragic though to witness the death of an organisation by a thousand cuts.
Apologies to all for continuing this off thread subject but I felt a response to L'aviateurs well thought out post was warranted.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
FTOs - rumour vs. libel
I have split this off from the Cabair views / experience thread as the topics are quite separate, but both discussions are important.
SD
SD
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I think this is a very interesting thread that, maybe, should appear at the top of all PPRuNe forums. There was time where most of the stuff found here had substance, then irresponsibility and anonymity came to the fore. Combine that with some Alice in Wonderland speculation and you get a load of absolute rubbish. Furthermore, having seen perfectly strong and stable global organisations ruined by wild speculation in the last 6 months, maybe we should have a little more sense than to just spread idle gossip. I find it interesting that some organisations appear to be singled-out for attacks on a regular basis (Cabair, Ryanair etc) but find it more intriguing that these companies actually do quite well.
So, I agree with the mods - put up or shut up.
So, I agree with the mods - put up or shut up.
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I totally agree with the mods.
In these times most businesses (cept Pawn Brokers) are struggling, last thing anyone likes to see is wild speculation which could prove detrimental to an FTO's future.
The comment which was originally posted is something best posted on private forums between mates, not on a busy well known forum like these.
In these times most businesses (cept Pawn Brokers) are struggling, last thing anyone likes to see is wild speculation which could prove detrimental to an FTO's future.
The comment which was originally posted is something best posted on private forums between mates, not on a busy well known forum like these.
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Enlarging Bovine,
You are ( as always!!) correct. Any FTO's in financial difficulties should be honest enpough not to take money as pre payment for any services unless they can provide cast iron gaurantees that the money will be ring fenced ( in most cases this is not possible).
Scurrilous and inaccurate rumour and innuendo are very damaging to any business. Aircraft being impounded is not actually that uncommon and being easily moveable across international boundaries many airport operators impound aircraft to recover relatively small sums of money. Sometimes this is necessary for the "can pay but won't pay" brigade, as opposed to the "can't pay at all" mob.
Some years ago there were some viciuos and perhaps not unfounded rumours about a UK based airline after a/c were impounded at variuos airports. Fees were paid, refinancing obtained and it continues to fly from strength to strength. Sadly, I have seen some poison pen rumours on this and other sites about some businesses that has resulted in (perhaps) unnecessary failure.
You are ( as always!!) correct. Any FTO's in financial difficulties should be honest enpough not to take money as pre payment for any services unless they can provide cast iron gaurantees that the money will be ring fenced ( in most cases this is not possible).
Scurrilous and inaccurate rumour and innuendo are very damaging to any business. Aircraft being impounded is not actually that uncommon and being easily moveable across international boundaries many airport operators impound aircraft to recover relatively small sums of money. Sometimes this is necessary for the "can pay but won't pay" brigade, as opposed to the "can't pay at all" mob.
Some years ago there were some viciuos and perhaps not unfounded rumours about a UK based airline after a/c were impounded at variuos airports. Fees were paid, refinancing obtained and it continues to fly from strength to strength. Sadly, I have seen some poison pen rumours on this and other sites about some businesses that has resulted in (perhaps) unnecessary failure.
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The other side of all this is that because so many schools are in financial trouble at the best of times (sailing close to the wind is the norm rather than the exception in GA related businesses of all types - there is something which attracts the Humphrey Bogart / DC3 / Casablanca romantic cowboys) it could be pretty hard for a GA business to successfully sue for defamation etc.
So many of them have been sued multiple times for non-payment (I mean County Court judgements, bailiffs dropping by, etc) and since this stuff is in the public domain (it gets contemporaneously published in the London Gazette or something like that, as well as ending up on many company data databases) the company would be hard pushed to make itself look like a pillar of financial stability.
Therefore, legal threats and related bluster and general crude playground type bully tactics are common in this business but rarely go further.
It is also pretty normal for customers to threaten litigation. I know of one UK aircraft dealer who has barely a single customer from the last decade who never threatened to sue at some stage. Pretty sad really, and the upshot of it was that the company didn't give a t0ss about anything anymore.
So many of them have been sued multiple times for non-payment (I mean County Court judgements, bailiffs dropping by, etc) and since this stuff is in the public domain (it gets contemporaneously published in the London Gazette or something like that, as well as ending up on many company data databases) the company would be hard pushed to make itself look like a pillar of financial stability.
Therefore, legal threats and related bluster and general crude playground type bully tactics are common in this business but rarely go further.
It is also pretty normal for customers to threaten litigation. I know of one UK aircraft dealer who has barely a single customer from the last decade who never threatened to sue at some stage. Pretty sad really, and the upshot of it was that the company didn't give a t0ss about anything anymore.
Can I just add that anyone who says that [an FTO] are in financial trouble you must be able to back up what you say and not post on 'What you have heard'.
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Any FTO's in financial difficulties should be honest enpough not to take money as pre payment for any services unless they can provide cast iron gaurantees that the money will be ring fenced ( in most cases this is not possible).
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Good post Donalk.
I consider PPRuNe private property (though I don't know the owner) so while here, I'm either a guest under conditions, or a trespasser. I presume that if I post within the conditions, I am welcomed, if I post contrary to the conditions, I trespass, and am subject to local or widespread removal. If I don't like the conditions, I go elsewhere. PPRuNe keeps the conditions reasonable, so I return. If I see too much nonsense (like financial speculation) I tune out, I've got more important things to read.
Those who think they should have some kind of extrodinary privilage to lible another here, in the guise warning others, should start their own website, and not foul this one. The business circumstances of any person or organisation are private matters subject to the laws of the land, and companies whose proper business (credit agencies) it is to research and report such things. Buyer beware. If you pay money for services yet to be rendered, you are gambling, only gamble what you can affort to loose!
Let's talk about planes and safe flying habits here, and not speculate about private matters. This forum is populated by professionals - right? Professionals behave better....
Pilot DAR
I consider PPRuNe private property (though I don't know the owner) so while here, I'm either a guest under conditions, or a trespasser. I presume that if I post within the conditions, I am welcomed, if I post contrary to the conditions, I trespass, and am subject to local or widespread removal. If I don't like the conditions, I go elsewhere. PPRuNe keeps the conditions reasonable, so I return. If I see too much nonsense (like financial speculation) I tune out, I've got more important things to read.
Those who think they should have some kind of extrodinary privilage to lible another here, in the guise warning others, should start their own website, and not foul this one. The business circumstances of any person or organisation are private matters subject to the laws of the land, and companies whose proper business (credit agencies) it is to research and report such things. Buyer beware. If you pay money for services yet to be rendered, you are gambling, only gamble what you can affort to loose!
Let's talk about planes and safe flying habits here, and not speculate about private matters. This forum is populated by professionals - right? Professionals behave better....
Pilot DAR