Man killed in Norfolk plane crash
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Daisy et al,
Steve is my formation aerobatic display partner - my wing-man. Firstly, he had better pull through because I'd trust no one like I trust Steve and secondly I'm already missing the tales of derring do in the "gay bar" and nights out in LKF!
There is a great thread on the FH forum, which I will print out and make sure P sees.
Not many chaps around like Steve - so he had better get better soonish!
Stik
Steve is my formation aerobatic display partner - my wing-man. Firstly, he had better pull through because I'd trust no one like I trust Steve and secondly I'm already missing the tales of derring do in the "gay bar" and nights out in LKF!
There is a great thread on the FH forum, which I will print out and make sure P sees.
Not many chaps around like Steve - so he had better get better soonish!
Stik
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Had the pleasure of flying with Ian -a very professional pilot and thoroughly decent and generous man. This is a tragic and shocking accident
I struggle to believe it.
If this can happen to a pilot of Ian's calibre what hope for the rest of us!
After 25 years and 500 hrs I am seriously considering giving up flying
Deepest sympathy to his family and friends.
Hope the other pilot makes a good and full recovery
I struggle to believe it.
If this can happen to a pilot of Ian's calibre what hope for the rest of us!
After 25 years and 500 hrs I am seriously considering giving up flying
Deepest sympathy to his family and friends.
Hope the other pilot makes a good and full recovery
Moderator
How are the speculative posts with respect to accidents helping? It is my opinion that speculation on accidents has no place here. That is the responsiblility of the investigators, who sure are not posting it here! If you have first hand knowledge and choose to share it, that is worthy of consideration. If you have sympathy to share, I'm sure that is appreciated. If you've read the formal report and have a helpful comment about that, by then, perhaps the time is better, and you're commenting a report, more than an event.
My sympathy to those affected...
Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!
Pilot DAR
My sympathy to those affected...
Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!
Pilot DAR
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It is my opinion that speculation on accidents has no place here. That is the responsiblility of the investigators, who sure are not posting it here! If you have first hand knowledge and choose to share it, that is worthy of consideration.
Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!
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Says a lot about the pilots that such an accident has affected so many lives. If it can happen to such accomplished flyers then we should really take heed when the report is issued, and listen to Stik when he calls for restraint on the naturally human but sometimes rubbernecking type speculation.
BTW Did anyone else note this comment from a caring neighbour ?
"I live very near to this airfield. There's no flight control there and it was only a matter of time before before a serious accident happened. My sympathies go out to the man's family but thank heavens the tractor driver emerged unscathed.
- liz, norwich,uk, 30/10/2008 13:14"
May the bird of paradise **** all over her and her house
BTW Did anyone else note this comment from a caring neighbour ?
"I live very near to this airfield. There's no flight control there and it was only a matter of time before before a serious accident happened. My sympathies go out to the man's family but thank heavens the tractor driver emerged unscathed.
- liz, norwich,uk, 30/10/2008 13:14"
May the bird of paradise **** all over her and her house
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May the bird of paradise **** all over her and her house
Everyone is entitled to their own view on things, and in aviation we just have to accept that aerodromes will usually have some neighbours who do not share our enthusiasm. It's not a hobby like stamp collecting, which you can do in private and away from the view of others.
niknak
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As I've said in a previous but very similar thread, comments are for the very large part well meant but often descend into the realms of down right unpleasant.
I think it's happened on every single fatal accident thread to date, someone always has to put the boot in and it usually needs some action by the Mod's to gain some sense of normality.
Clearly the deceased family will be most affected, but remember that there are always the other people involved who will have very vivid memories of what went on, not least those who iwere just njured and also (and just as importantly) those who were there when it happened and tried to help.
The AAIB report is clearly a long way off, but if you must speculate, try and do it with some sense of common decency.
I think it's happened on every single fatal accident thread to date, someone always has to put the boot in and it usually needs some action by the Mod's to gain some sense of normality.
Clearly the deceased family will be most affected, but remember that there are always the other people involved who will have very vivid memories of what went on, not least those who iwere just njured and also (and just as importantly) those who were there when it happened and tried to help.
The AAIB report is clearly a long way off, but if you must speculate, try and do it with some sense of common decency.
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Pilot DAR
"Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!"
Well if you are currently flying I would keep reading posts about accidents. This way you may learn from the mistakes of others, as you wont live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
Sounds morbid but one should delve in and try and find out what went wrong or why it may of happened ASAP.
"Note to self: Stop reading posts about accidents!"
Well if you are currently flying I would keep reading posts about accidents. This way you may learn from the mistakes of others, as you wont live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
Sounds morbid but one should delve in and try and find out what went wrong or why it may of happened ASAP.
Hovering AND talking
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you may learn from the mistakes of others, as you wont live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
Much better to learn from AAIB reports, CHIRP, Airprox etc.
Thankfully this thread is a better example and has not degenerated into the "spec-fest" that most post-accident/incident threads become.
Cheers
Whirls
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There is the natural curiosity to know what happened even when hard facts are not known, along with a concern that "If it happened to them maybe it would happen to me".
So I feel the talk about a recent accident is healthy. The other extreme would be to be fatalistic and say "Accidents happen, but not very often. I fly as safely as I know, so it won't happen to me unless my time is up".
Having said that it's easy to overstep the mark in the quest to need to know.
In regards to this particular accident the reports were ambiguous and there were hints of a runway incursion, which we were later assured was not the case. It might have been helpful if this has been made common knowledge earlier.
So I feel the talk about a recent accident is healthy. The other extreme would be to be fatalistic and say "Accidents happen, but not very often. I fly as safely as I know, so it won't happen to me unless my time is up".
Having said that it's easy to overstep the mark in the quest to need to know.
In regards to this particular accident the reports were ambiguous and there were hints of a runway incursion, which we were later assured was not the case. It might have been helpful if this has been made common knowledge earlier.
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This debate of "should we or shouldn't we speculate" comes up after every significant or fatal accident and long and meandering threads always start at the same time. But the subject and the threads never come up when AAIB reports are issued and we could actually learn something. This tells me the intent of the speculation is more about morbid curiousity and car-wreck rubbernecking than genuine learning and improving one's own flying. You can color it any way you want, but that's the reality. And no one can learn anything significant from incomplete, and often erroneous, details of the incident, which are all that's available until the AAIB report is published, ergo, there is no real learning or useful debate to be had from these threads. They just serve to perpetuate rumour and Monday-morning quaterbacking.
I refuse to get involved in most of these for the above reason, and I think this one faded out so quickly because of Stik's eloquent post, which still stands as the best word on the subject.
Threads post-accident which celebrate the lives and times of the victims are most welcome and are genuinely useful to helping the family and the aviation community grieve the loss of a loved-one and, fortunately, that has been the lion's share of the content on this thread.
I know we'll never end the speculative threads any more than we'll keep drivers from slowing to 20 mph on the opposite side of a motorway from an accident, but these threads teach us no more than the drivers learn while rubbernecking. I just wish people would own up to that truth and decide not to add to them.
Now, back to celebrating the life and times of Ian and wishing Steve well. Please?
I refuse to get involved in most of these for the above reason, and I think this one faded out so quickly because of Stik's eloquent post, which still stands as the best word on the subject.
Threads post-accident which celebrate the lives and times of the victims are most welcome and are genuinely useful to helping the family and the aviation community grieve the loss of a loved-one and, fortunately, that has been the lion's share of the content on this thread.
I know we'll never end the speculative threads any more than we'll keep drivers from slowing to 20 mph on the opposite side of a motorway from an accident, but these threads teach us no more than the drivers learn while rubbernecking. I just wish people would own up to that truth and decide not to add to them.
Now, back to celebrating the life and times of Ian and wishing Steve well. Please?
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Now, back to celebrating the life and times of Ian and wishing Steve well. Please?
As far as speculation on accidents are concerned again it may hurt the sensibilities of a few that knew these people but speculation that will make people think and try and avoid the same situation can only help to prevent a similar tragedy.
As I see it the situation is fairly clear an aircraft with poor forward visibility low on finals possibly into a winter sun hits a farm vehicle on the undershoot to the runway. 1 person killed one critically injured. The lesson to learn for me would be to make sure I landed longer into the runway (that runway is plenty long enough).
In fact reading these posts there is very little in the way of speculation, just plenty in the way of people spouting off about how we should not be talking about it.
I knew both of the pilots in passing, pleasant people and a loss to aviation.
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Spot on Bose.
A sad accident that involved three people but as the third was not a pilot his fate is of no interest to most of the previous posters. Just imagine how he must be feeling! As for speculative reports I thought the Eastern Daily Press did a very good job of the reporting.
The tractor driver, Andrew Hill, escaped serious injury but was recovering at home last night after being treated for shock. The aircraft came to a halt 30ft from his vehicle, which was on a field next to the runway.
Paul Bassett, a senior officer with the East of England Ambulance Service, said Mr Hill was lucky to walk away from the accident.
“From speaking to him, he didn't see the aircraft coming,” said Mr Bassett. “He heard the bang and wondered what it was. It was a lucky escape.
“The tractor was spraying the field. It remained upright. The only damage that I could see was to the large plastic truck which carries the liquid to put on to the field.”
Norfolk Fire Service watch manager Richard McGonagle said a fire broke out following the crash but it was dealt with by airfield staff.
“There was significant debris on the start of the approach to the runway and evidence of a collision with the agricultural vehicle. The aircraft was barely recognisable. The debris field suggests the aircraft collided with the crop-spraying tractor before it hit the ground.”
I don't think it is rocket science to agree with the theory put forward by Bose X. This is a rumours and news forum and for those who don't like it I suggest you waste your time elsewhere.
A sad accident that involved three people but as the third was not a pilot his fate is of no interest to most of the previous posters. Just imagine how he must be feeling! As for speculative reports I thought the Eastern Daily Press did a very good job of the reporting.
The tractor driver, Andrew Hill, escaped serious injury but was recovering at home last night after being treated for shock. The aircraft came to a halt 30ft from his vehicle, which was on a field next to the runway.
Paul Bassett, a senior officer with the East of England Ambulance Service, said Mr Hill was lucky to walk away from the accident.
“From speaking to him, he didn't see the aircraft coming,” said Mr Bassett. “He heard the bang and wondered what it was. It was a lucky escape.
“The tractor was spraying the field. It remained upright. The only damage that I could see was to the large plastic truck which carries the liquid to put on to the field.”
Norfolk Fire Service watch manager Richard McGonagle said a fire broke out following the crash but it was dealt with by airfield staff.
“There was significant debris on the start of the approach to the runway and evidence of a collision with the agricultural vehicle. The aircraft was barely recognisable. The debris field suggests the aircraft collided with the crop-spraying tractor before it hit the ground.”
I don't think it is rocket science to agree with the theory put forward by Bose X. This is a rumours and news forum and for those who don't like it I suggest you waste your time elsewhere.
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I think Bose-X sums up my personal view very well 
It's all very well for the hand wringers to ask for everyone to wait for the formal reports, but these often take years to be published. In the meantime, somone else could be making the same mistakes that have resulted in an accident. If discussion and 'speculation' makes pilots think about all the things which may have caused the accident, then it's surely in our own interests to open up the debates.
It's all very well for the hand wringers to ask for everyone to wait for the formal reports, but these often take years to be published. In the meantime, somone else could be making the same mistakes that have resulted in an accident. If discussion and 'speculation' makes pilots think about all the things which may have caused the accident, then it's surely in our own interests to open up the debates.
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Unfortunately, if Pilot DAR had taken the time to read the thread he/she would have realised that there hasn't been as much speculation as on other threads.
But more importantly, it's plain to see that all speculation had in fact ceased for 2 weeks and people were showing respect following Stiknruda's post.
What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see. Why it happened will probably come out when the AAIB report.
Hopefully we can return to the previous level of respect that this thread had and obviously warrants.
But more importantly, it's plain to see that all speculation had in fact ceased for 2 weeks and people were showing respect following Stiknruda's post.
What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see. Why it happened will probably come out when the AAIB report.
Hopefully we can return to the previous level of respect that this thread had and obviously warrants.
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There is further info on the accident on Paul Cox’s Christen Eagle II website
Christen Eagle II Aerobatic Biplane Sad, Sad News…Seething ‘Plane Crash
Christen Eagle II Aerobatic Biplane Sad, Sad News…Seething ‘Plane Crash
The two pilots flying in G-EGUL were both extremely experienced. From initial reports, this looks like a truly freak accident where G-EGUL, reported to be low on final approach to the runway, appears to have hit a tractor which was crop spraying the land adjacent to the threshold (most of the land at Seething surrounding the runway and taxiways is laid over to crops). The tractor driver thankfully escaped injury. I understand from a source at the scene that Ian Davies was PIC (Pilot in Command) so he would’ve been flying from the rear seat - obviously normal for an Eagle. He wanted some time in the Eagle for a magazine article he was writing “Buying a Christen Eagle II”. Looking at the wreckage, it’s amazing that anyone survived.
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restricted view . . . . ?
What happened is unfortunately clear for all to see
I thought I'd read earlier in the thread of some sort of obstructions to the total view down this approach ( hedges, trees ?). But there simply aren't any.
If, as has been said, the tractor / sprayer was on the land to the east of the 24 threshold, in that view above how would it be possible for anyone with normal vision to miss it ?
I'm now beginning to suspect that this may be more to do with the forward views available out of different aircraft, maybe even from different seats. The view from the front seat of our C172 is just like out of a car windscreen - just like the view shown above. I've never been in anything like an Eagle, and still less in the back seat.
Can anyone with such experience confirm whether the view posted by Phil above would be available to someone in the back seat of an Eagle ?
If not - is this not now something of much more concern ?
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I was at the AAIB's hangar this week. If there is anyone who is unaware of the amazing work that these people do, I cannot recommend enough learning a little bit more about them.
As most of you are aware, following an accident, they do not sit around discussing it, the way we do here; they go into intense scientific analysis of the entire situation. They look at the condition of the aircraft before and after the event. They have means of telling whether damage to an aircraft was there prior or post an accident. They interview survivors, witnesses and family. Meteorological conditions and a whole number of other circumstances are taken into account. No stone is left unturned.
Importantly, their reports are purely objective. Subjective views are dangerous.
If someone posts something on a forum that I find upsetting, I send them a PM rather than bite in public. I am fortunate have had 100% success rate for turning people's attitude around by this method and I invariably befriend the person who originally upset me.
I have been absolutely devastated by the loss of Ian and I barely knew him. So far, his loss has brought a lot of people closer together and that has to be a good thing.
My thoughts are with his family, friends and the tractor driver; my prayers are with Steve and Stik.
As most of you are aware, following an accident, they do not sit around discussing it, the way we do here; they go into intense scientific analysis of the entire situation. They look at the condition of the aircraft before and after the event. They have means of telling whether damage to an aircraft was there prior or post an accident. They interview survivors, witnesses and family. Meteorological conditions and a whole number of other circumstances are taken into account. No stone is left unturned.
Importantly, their reports are purely objective. Subjective views are dangerous.
If someone posts something on a forum that I find upsetting, I send them a PM rather than bite in public. I am fortunate have had 100% success rate for turning people's attitude around by this method and I invariably befriend the person who originally upset me.
I have been absolutely devastated by the loss of Ian and I barely knew him. So far, his loss has brought a lot of people closer together and that has to be a good thing.
My thoughts are with his family, friends and the tractor driver; my prayers are with Steve and Stik.