AOPA claim 70% drop out rate
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me the issue is time. With work (60+ hrs/week), family and other commitments, not much is left for me. So typically I will get just a Saturday afternoon free. That doesn't leave many options and often a bimble over my brothers house is all I have time for. There is only so much of that you can do and stay keen.
I would love to pick up on aero's again as that is something that doesn't require all day and does keep me interested. The day the T-67 was sold at my local club was a sad day indeed
That said, I will never give up my PPL as I smile the moment the wheels leave the ground.
I would love to pick up on aero's again as that is something that doesn't require all day and does keep me interested. The day the T-67 was sold at my local club was a sad day indeed
That said, I will never give up my PPL as I smile the moment the wheels leave the ground.
Before JAR-FCL came along it was noted that after qualification private pilots continued to fly actively for about 3 years after which time there was a marked reduction to the 10 year point when 90% were no longer active.
This was quoted as an example when the 5 year licence came in, to justify the costs by stating that as less than 90% would be flying after 10 years the cost of issue and one renewal was no more than the cost of a lifetime licence.
Apart from the reduction in numbers qualifying (arround 30%) in 15 years has anything really changed?
This was quoted as an example when the 5 year licence came in, to justify the costs by stating that as less than 90% would be flying after 10 years the cost of issue and one renewal was no more than the cost of a lifetime licence.
Apart from the reduction in numbers qualifying (arround 30%) in 15 years has anything really changed?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Compton Abbas
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I belong to an incredibly frustrating flying club (Compton Abbas) that won't let you take their rental planes across the channel. They just drag their feet giving one crap excuse after another. I'm at the stage (past it, really) where 1.5 hour journeys to other airfields in the south of the UK don't sound quite as exciting as a proper channel crossing and experimenting with another country.
I was under the impression you didn't save _that_ much money by flying in a syndicate as opposed to renting, but this thread suggests otherwise. Thing is, I would hope to join a syndicate for a plane rather better than the rental spamcans I've been accustomed to flying at CA. Obviously, since that is my local airfield the plane would need to be based there too.
I was under the impression you didn't save _that_ much money by flying in a syndicate as opposed to renting, but this thread suggests otherwise. Thing is, I would hope to join a syndicate for a plane rather better than the rental spamcans I've been accustomed to flying at CA. Obviously, since that is my local airfield the plane would need to be based there too.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A decent flying club is a form of mentoring, because novice pilots mix with more experienced pilots.
The problem in flying clubs, which I can speak of from personal experience, is that it's allright for as long as everybody is renting from the club (school). The moment one of the members buys his own plane, or buys a share outside the club, he finds himself excluded. So, anybody who gets really experienced will vanish, because almost nobody hangs around the self fly hire scene for long.
This is because when there is a fly-out, the school tries to set it up so that there is always a student in the LH seat and an instructor in the RH seat, so the school gets the full rental, plus the instructor rate, for every leg flown. When I was in a certain club, they were very particular about this. The people in the back could be anybody. When, as an owner, I got invited to come along, it would be only on the basis that anybody flying with me was a non-pilot and therefore no longer a potential customer for the school. Pretty soon, I was not invited anymore.
I am not making any claims for my flying skills, but I do recall that pilots who saw the way I was planning and flying, all as if IFR even if actually under VFR, and using the GPS and navaids, getting weather off the internet, etc, basically all the things which modern pilots do, they were amazed to see this and were very interested. They weren't getting this info from the school, which at the time was not teaching notams (or anything whatsoever that comes via the internet) and not teaching what to do with the red lever... If these suspect procedures got back to their instructors, it would have p1ssed them off.
Of course if you have a proper club (not a school) then it should work very well. But I don't think there are many (any?) of those. I am sure many clubs are more enlightened but this sort of self-interest does put a damper on things.
Whopity - I have always assumed you work for the CAA
I do wish the CAA released the data on this, but I am sure your 90% is spot on.
The problem in flying clubs, which I can speak of from personal experience, is that it's allright for as long as everybody is renting from the club (school). The moment one of the members buys his own plane, or buys a share outside the club, he finds himself excluded. So, anybody who gets really experienced will vanish, because almost nobody hangs around the self fly hire scene for long.
This is because when there is a fly-out, the school tries to set it up so that there is always a student in the LH seat and an instructor in the RH seat, so the school gets the full rental, plus the instructor rate, for every leg flown. When I was in a certain club, they were very particular about this. The people in the back could be anybody. When, as an owner, I got invited to come along, it would be only on the basis that anybody flying with me was a non-pilot and therefore no longer a potential customer for the school. Pretty soon, I was not invited anymore.
I am not making any claims for my flying skills, but I do recall that pilots who saw the way I was planning and flying, all as if IFR even if actually under VFR, and using the GPS and navaids, getting weather off the internet, etc, basically all the things which modern pilots do, they were amazed to see this and were very interested. They weren't getting this info from the school, which at the time was not teaching notams (or anything whatsoever that comes via the internet) and not teaching what to do with the red lever... If these suspect procedures got back to their instructors, it would have p1ssed them off.
Of course if you have a proper club (not a school) then it should work very well. But I don't think there are many (any?) of those. I am sure many clubs are more enlightened but this sort of self-interest does put a damper on things.
Whopity - I have always assumed you work for the CAA
I do wish the CAA released the data on this, but I am sure your 90% is spot on.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540 wrote: << . . . The moment one of the members buys his own plane, or buys a share outside the club, he finds himself excluded. . . >>
And I thought it was perhaps my aftershave . . .
And I thought it was perhaps my aftershave . . .
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO540, that's exactly where the difference between a flying school and a flying club comes in.
At my flying club, the club is run by pilots for pilots. Yes, we have instructors, but all of them are freelance and any agreements between the student and the instructor is between them. The club does not get involved and actually, after a flying lesson, you have two bills to pay (separately): the aircraft and the instructor. Although the club does facilitate the instructors by publishing the "standard" rate for an hour of instruction, and offering members the ability to book an instructor together with the plane, on the internet reservations system.
Obviously instructors are club members too, and since they hang around the clubhouse a lot, they actually have a lot of informal influence. But formally, instructors are equal to students to PPL holders as far as the club rules go.
Club activities are activities where everybody is invited. Student, instructor, PPL holder. Bring your own plane if you want, or take a club plane. In fact, some of our club members have bought their own plane and rent it out to club members via the clubs reservation system - although you have to be checked out on these aircraft by the owner first.
We even have people who did their PPL with the club, then went on towards ATPL and have 737 jobs at our airport. They are still very welcome for activities or just to hang around the clubhouse.
So it is very well possible to have a separation of club activities and commercial activities within one organization. But I have found that it does require a board, composed of volunteers, that actually recognise this fact and do their best to maintain that separation in a logical way, that still works for everybody.
At my flying club, the club is run by pilots for pilots. Yes, we have instructors, but all of them are freelance and any agreements between the student and the instructor is between them. The club does not get involved and actually, after a flying lesson, you have two bills to pay (separately): the aircraft and the instructor. Although the club does facilitate the instructors by publishing the "standard" rate for an hour of instruction, and offering members the ability to book an instructor together with the plane, on the internet reservations system.
Obviously instructors are club members too, and since they hang around the clubhouse a lot, they actually have a lot of informal influence. But formally, instructors are equal to students to PPL holders as far as the club rules go.
Club activities are activities where everybody is invited. Student, instructor, PPL holder. Bring your own plane if you want, or take a club plane. In fact, some of our club members have bought their own plane and rent it out to club members via the clubs reservation system - although you have to be checked out on these aircraft by the owner first.
We even have people who did their PPL with the club, then went on towards ATPL and have 737 jobs at our airport. They are still very welcome for activities or just to hang around the clubhouse.
So it is very well possible to have a separation of club activities and commercial activities within one organization. But I have found that it does require a board, composed of volunteers, that actually recognise this fact and do their best to maintain that separation in a logical way, that still works for everybody.
I took up flying so that I could do aero's. Then during my training, I got a great sense of achievement from the x-country/land away side of things.
Once I obtained my PPL I pretty much found myself in a void, as, from the clubs point of view, they had no interest in me anymore. Not once did an instructor pro-actively inquire as to if I might want to spend more money on learning better navigation skills, all of which would have built up my confidence to fly further afield, alone.
I then went on from ~45hours to 90hours in about 18 months by renting club aircraft, mainly learning aero's. Enjoyed the odd x-country flight, but never ventured far without somebody in the RHS to help out.
Then the time and money syndrome kicked in, and with not being able to spend enough time and money on learning aero's so that I could compete, my interest dropped off. Spending near on 2 hours traveling to the airfield and back didn't help either.
I'm now in the position where I realise that if I want to keep flying, I need to buy in to a group. I also need the group to be based nearby to cut down on the travel time. If this doesn't happen in the next 24 months (I've just renewed via a skills test) then chances are I'll let my license lapse.
As has been mentioned, and I've said it to other people who have mentioned 'learning to fly' - you need a reason to do so, otherwise once you pass the test, you'll probably pack up after flying over your house a few times.
The actual part of learning to fly maybe enough for some people, which is why I keep looking at doing my PPL(H) now
Likewise, I've just had a Porsche Cayman on test drive for 24hours, and that made driving fun again !!!
Once I obtained my PPL I pretty much found myself in a void, as, from the clubs point of view, they had no interest in me anymore. Not once did an instructor pro-actively inquire as to if I might want to spend more money on learning better navigation skills, all of which would have built up my confidence to fly further afield, alone.
I then went on from ~45hours to 90hours in about 18 months by renting club aircraft, mainly learning aero's. Enjoyed the odd x-country flight, but never ventured far without somebody in the RHS to help out.
Then the time and money syndrome kicked in, and with not being able to spend enough time and money on learning aero's so that I could compete, my interest dropped off. Spending near on 2 hours traveling to the airfield and back didn't help either.
I'm now in the position where I realise that if I want to keep flying, I need to buy in to a group. I also need the group to be based nearby to cut down on the travel time. If this doesn't happen in the next 24 months (I've just renewed via a skills test) then chances are I'll let my license lapse.
As has been mentioned, and I've said it to other people who have mentioned 'learning to fly' - you need a reason to do so, otherwise once you pass the test, you'll probably pack up after flying over your house a few times.
The actual part of learning to fly maybe enough for some people, which is why I keep looking at doing my PPL(H) now
Likewise, I've just had a Porsche Cayman on test drive for 24hours, and that made driving fun again !!!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels - Twin Comanche PA39 - KA C90B
Age: 51
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Likewise, I've just had a Porsche Cayman on test drive for 24hours, and that made driving fun again !!!
Sorry, that's not a porsche.
From my own POV, I would never ever ever want either the Boxter or the Cayenne and I told that to the sales guy today. (well the Boxter bit anyway). He said, "ahh, because of the image", and he was right.
Be interested via PM what you think is wrong with the Cayman, so as not to derail the thread.
Likewise my parting comment was that I'd probably still rather buy a 2nd hand 911 than a new Cayman. Still can't get away from the fact that it was a complete hoot to drive.
Cheers
-
Mike
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels - Twin Comanche PA39 - KA C90B
Age: 51
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Be interested via PM what you think is wrong with the Cayman, so as not to derail the thread.
while there is only 1 reason why they didn't bought a 911...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK.
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a recent dropout after 13 years of flying and 500+ hours P1. I let the IMC rating lapse, as I started flying out of a privately owned grass strip, it was no good taking off, landing somewhere else if the weather closed in, then my car was many miles away. Night qualification went the same. The group I was in went really sour and I didn't want to stay in it, so I left, then couldn't find anything else, so well out of currency, I am now a dropout. Time is not an issue, neither is cash. Just time to move on maybe.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK.
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sternone. I should have done when I first started. I was an old fart when I started flying. I am an even older one now. I just didn't think I would fly for so long. Now I think I am too old to start all over again. One has to give up at some time. Had the weather been kind this year, I would probably have flown club hacks for a while, and maybe would have found something suitable. It's not just a case of buying an aircraft, it's finding somewhere to keep it, and not many airfields to choose from around where I live.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brussels - Twin Comanche PA39 - KA C90B
Age: 51
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was an old fart when I started flying. I am an even older one now
There is not much of a help i can give to you, after all, time flies and we can't buy that back with all the money in the world. I'm 34 and feel that i have done already so much in my life, i hope i can at least double my age.
Why don't you fly all over europe ?
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, let me say that I in no way intend to give up flying at the moment. But after 10 years and over 1000 hours, I'm beginning to understand why people do.
There can come a point, in flying as in everything else in life, when you've done everything you set out to do. When the buzz and the Wow factor hasn't gone, but has lessened...maybe to the point that it's not worth the time and effort required. Or maybe you just fancy doing something new.
It's impossible to understand this when you're very new to flying. You think you'll want to fly and fly and fly, for ever and ever and ever. Maybe you will. Maybe I will. All I know is, I don't get upset and stir-crazy if it rains on a day I wanted to fly, not in the way I used to a few years ago.
I understand where maggioneato is coming from, in a way which, with all due respect, sternone, I don't think you can.
Everything changes, and everyone moves on. And for some people, maybe that means giving up flying and doing something new and equally wonderful. What on earth is wrong with that?
But I ain't doing it yet!!!!!!
There can come a point, in flying as in everything else in life, when you've done everything you set out to do. When the buzz and the Wow factor hasn't gone, but has lessened...maybe to the point that it's not worth the time and effort required. Or maybe you just fancy doing something new.
It's impossible to understand this when you're very new to flying. You think you'll want to fly and fly and fly, for ever and ever and ever. Maybe you will. Maybe I will. All I know is, I don't get upset and stir-crazy if it rains on a day I wanted to fly, not in the way I used to a few years ago.
I understand where maggioneato is coming from, in a way which, with all due respect, sternone, I don't think you can.
Everything changes, and everyone moves on. And for some people, maybe that means giving up flying and doing something new and equally wonderful. What on earth is wrong with that?
But I ain't doing it yet!!!!!!
Don't. You must have started for a reason. Stick to it and you'll be pleased you did I think, regardless of whether you're still flying in 5 years time. I got my PPL in July 2005, did about 4 hrs flying in the 6 months after that, and then nothing until about 4 weeks ago when I did a multi and night rating. I think the reason is that i'm very 'mission' driven, and don't know what to do with just a plane and some free time and some money to burn.
Interesting point:
Is it actually possible to rent or share anything that was made less than 25 years ago?? All the training aircraft i've seen everywhere have been late 70's, or early 80's and look like they've been made from bits of caravan. I rarely see anything any younger in group ads. Even highly-regarded FTOs use re-painted knackered old warriors. I know it doesn't really make any difference to the flying, but I hesitate to take passengers in such ropey-looking vehicles.
Ginger
Interesting point:
The next reason is that renting will get you only so far. Most of the stuff available is absolute crap
Ginger
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Oxford
Age: 45
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm about half-way through my PPL training. I half-jokingly say to people that I hope I'll get bored of flying in about three years - that's about the time it has taken me to get bored of every other hobby I've ever taken up - because my long-term financial outlook is much rosier that way!
I know a couple of guys who have given up flying. For both of them, it's a combination of having achieved their dream and "got it out of their system"; and the arrival of wife and kids meant that it was difficult to find the time to stay current and even more difficult to justify the cost, which had become a much heftier proportion of their (greatly diminished) disposable income.
If you're not on the salary level of top lawyers or investment bankers, it's quite a big financial sacrifice once you're no longer free and single.
I know a couple of guys who have given up flying. For both of them, it's a combination of having achieved their dream and "got it out of their system"; and the arrival of wife and kids meant that it was difficult to find the time to stay current and even more difficult to justify the cost, which had become a much heftier proportion of their (greatly diminished) disposable income.
If you're not on the salary level of top lawyers or investment bankers, it's quite a big financial sacrifice once you're no longer free and single.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had my PPL 10 years and always flown a lot until this last year or two. I've also let my IMC lapse.
Why?
Work, time, energy, weather, being a wimp.
Work is busier so I've less time and energy (also getting a bit older
). To be confident I need to fly a lot and a combination of work/lack of time and the weather has stopped me flying as much so it's a vicious circle.
It most certainly is NOT because of:-
'old' aircraft - as long as it's well maintained and comfortable, it doesn't bother me what it looks like
unfriendly club - mine is very pleasant
traditional navigation - I like using a map and whizz wheel (and can use VOR/ADF and have a little GPS)
hour building instructors - I've never had a bad instructor and have flown with career, hour building and ex-airline instructors.
problems with hiring - aircraft are usually available and can be taken abroad
not owning an aircraft - I'm not sure I want the commitment, especially as I'm a wimp
Why?
Work, time, energy, weather, being a wimp.
Work is busier so I've less time and energy (also getting a bit older
). To be confident I need to fly a lot and a combination of work/lack of time and the weather has stopped me flying as much so it's a vicious circle.It most certainly is NOT because of:-
'old' aircraft - as long as it's well maintained and comfortable, it doesn't bother me what it looks like
unfriendly club - mine is very pleasant
traditional navigation - I like using a map and whizz wheel (and can use VOR/ADF and have a little GPS)
hour building instructors - I've never had a bad instructor and have flown with career, hour building and ex-airline instructors.
problems with hiring - aircraft are usually available and can be taken abroad
not owning an aircraft - I'm not sure I want the commitment, especially as I'm a wimp
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're not on the salary level of top lawyers or investment bankers, it's quite a big financial sacrifice once you're no longer free and single
That may be a bit of a sweeping statement. A good lawyer might be on £300k. Good fund managers on much more. You can do an awful lot of flying on that...
Flying is not a dirt cheap hobby but equally it isn't that expensive. A really high hour pilot, zooming all over Europe in a nice IFR tourer, might be spending around £20k/year. You can do a lot of VFR flying for a fraction of that.
Also, "free" is not necessarily "single". If you are a bloke who likes flying, and you shack up with a woman who hates it, who is to blame for this?? Nowadays, everybody has options when it comes to relationships. Internet dating has made it far easier than it used to be. There is no excuse for getting stuck with somebody who has a totally different agenda. The problem is that most men are mugs, and go for the first pair of t**s, get her pregnant, and moan they haven't got any freedom
That may be a bit of a sweeping statement. A good lawyer might be on £300k. Good fund managers on much more. You can do an awful lot of flying on that...
Flying is not a dirt cheap hobby but equally it isn't that expensive. A really high hour pilot, zooming all over Europe in a nice IFR tourer, might be spending around £20k/year. You can do a lot of VFR flying for a fraction of that.
Also, "free" is not necessarily "single". If you are a bloke who likes flying, and you shack up with a woman who hates it, who is to blame for this?? Nowadays, everybody has options when it comes to relationships. Internet dating has made it far easier than it used to be. There is no excuse for getting stuck with somebody who has a totally different agenda. The problem is that most men are mugs, and go for the first pair of t**s, get her pregnant, and moan they haven't got any freedom