Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!
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Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!
Oh boy, what a feeling. Since nowadays it's not needed anymore to actually spin during your training i kept on asking them if they would give me a lesson on it.
Today a great instructor told me, no problem, up we go. The first full spin in the C152 was amazing, we did 6 fully developped spins during that hour, each with more and more turns until i was completely satifsfied and able to get out of it!
Immediatly after flying normal i had this feeling in the plane that i never felt before.. i felt much better!! I had this idea that i kinda knew the plane much bettter!!
How is it possible that current students aren't supposed to learn about spins anymore ? I totally disagree with that!! Spin lessons should be in any pilot's training!!
If you didn't do spins in your life yet, please get a spin training, you won't regret!!!
Today a great instructor told me, no problem, up we go. The first full spin in the C152 was amazing, we did 6 fully developped spins during that hour, each with more and more turns until i was completely satifsfied and able to get out of it!
Immediatly after flying normal i had this feeling in the plane that i never felt before.. i felt much better!! I had this idea that i kinda knew the plane much bettter!!
How is it possible that current students aren't supposed to learn about spins anymore ? I totally disagree with that!! Spin lessons should be in any pilot's training!!
If you didn't do spins in your life yet, please get a spin training, you won't regret!!!
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Agreed 100%, sternone 
. When I started training in '81 spin training was mandatory. I loved it too. What is the rational behind the idea of incipient spin recognition and recovery only? Loving the sensation may be irrelevant as to why something should or shouldn't be on the syllabus but surely being taught how to get out of a spin is a good idea?!!
. When I started training in '81 spin training was mandatory. I loved it too. What is the rational behind the idea of incipient spin recognition and recovery only? Loving the sensation may be irrelevant as to why something should or shouldn't be on the syllabus but surely being taught how to get out of a spin is a good idea?!!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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The reason behind teaching spin avoidance as opposed to recovery is that there were a few stupid PPL's going off and entering spins and cleaning themselves (and club aircraft) up in a sad smoking tangled mess.
Personally, as an instructor, I agree with the current syllabus in that slow flight, stall and incipient spin recovery are all far better than spending time teaching someone the cure for what is essentially a mistake. Prevention is far better than cure, right?
So know your pre-stall symptoms: low or decreasing airspeed, possible high nose attitude, sloppy controls, stall warner (you should never have let things get to this stage if you're half awake!), the buffet (oh dear, you really did doze off during training didn't you?) and then, finally, the stall and nose drop/possible wing drop ergo possible spin (there's no helping some people)...
If you want to do things like spins then undergo a basic aerobatics course once you have a few hours under your belt as a PPL holder - the syllabus was changed for a very good reason and deaths following intentional spins have reduced since.
I won't pass my opinion on your instructor, who spent an hour teaching you spin recovery, as this would not be particularly good form from a fellow professional, but if you have any intuition you'll be able to work it out for yourself really.
VFE.
Personally, as an instructor, I agree with the current syllabus in that slow flight, stall and incipient spin recovery are all far better than spending time teaching someone the cure for what is essentially a mistake. Prevention is far better than cure, right?
So know your pre-stall symptoms: low or decreasing airspeed, possible high nose attitude, sloppy controls, stall warner (you should never have let things get to this stage if you're half awake!), the buffet (oh dear, you really did doze off during training didn't you?) and then, finally, the stall and nose drop/possible wing drop ergo possible spin (there's no helping some people)...
If you want to do things like spins then undergo a basic aerobatics course once you have a few hours under your belt as a PPL holder - the syllabus was changed for a very good reason and deaths following intentional spins have reduced since.
I won't pass my opinion on your instructor, who spent an hour teaching you spin recovery, as this would not be particularly good form from a fellow professional, but if you have any intuition you'll be able to work it out for yourself really.
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 26th Jul 2007 at 21:56.
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If you want to do things like spins then undergo a basic aerobatics course once you have a few hours under your belt as a PPL holder - the syllabus was changed for a very good reason because deaths following spins have reduced since.
Add to that the availability of club aircraft suitable for spin training.
However IMO (which is biased) you should go an do so more "advanced" flying after your PPL and if you enjoy it, an aerobatics course. The "advanced" training should include spins, and a host of other things that are beyond the PPL. There are some good schools around that offer this training and some real experts like Ultimate High - you will learn a lot, and its great fun.
You will get more from it once you have done your PPL and the basic skills are in place.
Awesome but Affordable
With over 50 years and some 9,000 hours instructing I agree with what has been said. A post PPL aerobatic course including full spinning will enhance your handling skills at the right time.
Looking back I would estimate that for an hour logged as Exercise 11 Spinning you actually managed less than a minute in autorotation with the other 59 spent mainly in climbing back up to a reasonable entry height along with the taxi, takeoff, rejoin, approach and landing plus a return to the parking slot. This when the student was almost certainly pre-solo and with between 5 and 15 hours total. For many the terror induced was totally counterproductive.
A fair proportion of students gave up the idea of becoming an aviator at the prospect of having to learn how to spin the aircraft when that was mandatory. Ridiculous when virtually all modern light aircraft will recover from the early stages of any spin by letting go the controls.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Looking back I would estimate that for an hour logged as Exercise 11 Spinning you actually managed less than a minute in autorotation with the other 59 spent mainly in climbing back up to a reasonable entry height along with the taxi, takeoff, rejoin, approach and landing plus a return to the parking slot. This when the student was almost certainly pre-solo and with between 5 and 15 hours total. For many the terror induced was totally counterproductive.
A fair proportion of students gave up the idea of becoming an aviator at the prospect of having to learn how to spin the aircraft when that was mandatory. Ridiculous when virtually all modern light aircraft will recover from the early stages of any spin by letting go the controls.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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Well, damn me - Sternone recounts an aspect of his training which has genuinely given him an insight into the the most interesting aspect of flying - aerobatics - and instantly a bunch of Grumpy Old Instructors jump down his throat.
No bloody wonder so many PPLs give up immediately post grant of license and a year spent paying £300 for a burger an hour's flying away every other weekend.
Sternone mate: suggest you reward yourself; after every 10 hours training of your PPL, book an aeros training sortie in something fruity with an aerobatic instructor, to remind you why you're doing all of this dry-as-dust straight-and-level stuff.
No bloody wonder so many PPLs give up immediately post grant of license and a year spent paying £300 for a burger an hour's flying away every other weekend.
Sternone mate: suggest you reward yourself; after every 10 hours training of your PPL, book an aeros training sortie in something fruity with an aerobatic instructor, to remind you why you're doing all of this dry-as-dust straight-and-level stuff.
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I certainly didn't read in any of that "a bunch of Grumpy Old Instructors jumping down his throat" - did I miss something?! 
I found it very interesting, as upon reading the first post I couldn't have agreed more, then as I read further through it I totally saw the point that the "grumpies" were making.
I have always thought that spin recovery should be taught at some stage of a pilots flying (I had to do an hour for my C Cat instructor rating) but never really knew in my limited experience quite where that training should fall.
Will be just as interesting to read any more "productive" post that are added.
I found it very interesting, as upon reading the first post I couldn't have agreed more, then as I read further through it I totally saw the point that the "grumpies" were making.
I have always thought that spin recovery should be taught at some stage of a pilots flying (I had to do an hour for my C Cat instructor rating) but never really knew in my limited experience quite where that training should fall.
Will be just as interesting to read any more "productive" post that are added.
Awesome but Affordable
Come off it Ed. The guy had a session of SPIN training, not aerobatics. He really enjoyed it and thats great. If he chooses in future to lengthen the time and cost to achieve his PPL by having a few dual aerobatic sessions then that is fine by me. Others may be on more limited budgets.
As I said before the majority of pilots regard spinning with the same enthusiasm as they would from discovering they were HIV positive. Nothing is likely to alter that unless they choose to enhance their knowledge. Spin avoidance is the only game in town as far as the FAA, CAA and EASA are concerned. It just makes sense.
Those of us whose chosen air sport happens to be aerobatics fully appreciate the satisfaction and heart ache it can bring. This along with a diminishing bank balance. The higher the level the higher the cost but logarithmically.
Mind you I have to say that 20 minutes in our Skybolt is quite the most effective method of turning avgas into adrenaline. Bar none.......!!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
As I said before the majority of pilots regard spinning with the same enthusiasm as they would from discovering they were HIV positive. Nothing is likely to alter that unless they choose to enhance their knowledge. Spin avoidance is the only game in town as far as the FAA, CAA and EASA are concerned. It just makes sense.
Those of us whose chosen air sport happens to be aerobatics fully appreciate the satisfaction and heart ache it can bring. This along with a diminishing bank balance. The higher the level the higher the cost but logarithmically.
Mind you I have to say that 20 minutes in our Skybolt is quite the most effective method of turning avgas into adrenaline. Bar none.......!!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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the most effective method of turning avgas into adrenaline.
G-EMMA - Sounds like you're planning a lot of things post PPL! Good on you!
My advice: Slow down, enjoy, & stop to smell the flowers! Bask in the glory of BEING a PPL first, then try all the new stuff as the novelty wears off the old!
Anyone agree?
(BTW: flying a helicopter for the first time - wear lots of deodorant and be prepared for lots of words
you didn't even know you were capable of saying... lol! )
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G-EMMA & Kiwi Chick.
Yes, thanks. Milk & Two Sugars please, pets. (...and I *do* have nomex underwear...)
Presumably the concept of teaching spin recovery 'at some stage' would mean the stage before said pilot kills him/herself in a spin accident, which as recent history sadly shows us, can be on your second or third solo.
The fundamental problem is that PPL training is mostly conducted on platforms which are not approved for intentional spinning; and that the FI course seems to generate a culture of fear in new FIs about the whole subject.
(...and is that the same Trapper 69 with 9000 hours who also has a track record of dumping young ladies into rivers from the top wing?)
Yes, thanks. Milk & Two Sugars please, pets. (...and I *do* have nomex underwear...)
Presumably the concept of teaching spin recovery 'at some stage' would mean the stage before said pilot kills him/herself in a spin accident, which as recent history sadly shows us, can be on your second or third solo.
The fundamental problem is that PPL training is mostly conducted on platforms which are not approved for intentional spinning; and that the FI course seems to generate a culture of fear in new FIs about the whole subject.
(...and is that the same Trapper 69 with 9000 hours who also has a track record of dumping young ladies into rivers from the top wing?)
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eharding:
I'm not sure whether I should be offended and use language that will most likely get me kicked out of this forum... or laugh and say "what a witty man you are"
Advice?
Response to option a) offended: I presume because I have breasts and only 600 hours [and lets face it, I fly a PA28 Warrior for a living, so I'm not a REAL pilot] that I shouldn't really add my opionion to these threads - or is is that another breasted creature and I should save the "morning tea" chit chat for another website such as www.old-had-it-housewives.com?
And G-EMMA - if it is option a) offended - rest assured the majority of the men on this website are more respectful.
Kiwi CHICK and proud of it.
Yes, thanks. Milk & Two Sugars please, pets. (...and I *do* have nomex underwear...)
Advice?
Response to option a) offended: I presume because I have breasts and only 600 hours [and lets face it, I fly a PA28 Warrior for a living, so I'm not a REAL pilot] that I shouldn't really add my opionion to these threads - or is is that another breasted creature and I should save the "morning tea" chit chat for another website such as www.old-had-it-housewives.com?
And G-EMMA - if it is option a) offended - rest assured the majority of the men on this website are more respectful.
Kiwi CHICK and proud of it.
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Since spinning was removed from the PPL syllabus, we now have two generations of FIs who haven't had to spin beyond demonstrating (a possible minium of) a single spin for their exam. Students, who ineveitably pick up on the preferences and views of the FI - they're all pros right, how can the stude differentiate between the newbie hour builder and the career instructor? - as a result inevitably have a fear of spinning inculcated; 'that way be dragons'.
Its often quoted that spinning was taken out of the PPL syllabus because of the number of accidents, although I've not see any real evidence; my suspicion is that too many people may have been trying to spin in inappropriate aircraft with inappropriate FIs, possibly in inappropriate cirmuctances - the horror stories one hears of deliberate spinning carried out underneath the London TMA, as an example, simply beggars belief.
Spin training in suitable, well maintained aircraft, taught by experienced FIs who have spent a lot of their time teaching spins, is the only safe way to go. I am clearly biased instructing at Ultimate High but we do spend an awful lot of time teaching people specifically on this issue; spins are definitely NOT just an academic exercise, nor are they things that happen soley to aerobatic pilots - there are a whole bunch of environmental issues that cause an upset that may well end up in a spin.
And taking it even further forward, exploring the non-standard spin in an Extra can be hugely beneficial - why does the spin become flat and/or accelerated? In an inverted spin, is the fact that the direction of yaw is opposite to the direction of roll really going to be your lead indicator that the spin is inverted? And which way is outspin aileron if you are inverted? And if you are completely disorientated and find yourself unexpectedly in a spin, how might you figure out the direction of the spin with a broken turn needle? And when might a turn coodinator kill you rather than save your life?
Does everybody reading this need this skills? If you drone through the middle 20% of the flight envelope, ensure that you are always in balance at all times and stay above the Vs for your individual configuration (spins obviously need the combination of stall and yaw) then you may well be ok. Me, I'd rather know that if my aeroplane gets inadvertently put into an extreme UP that may cause a spin if mishandled, that I will rapidly recognise what has happened and will immiediately be able to apply the control recovery actions that gets the aeroplane back to S+L (or climbing) with the absolute minimum in loss of height.
Its often quoted that spinning was taken out of the PPL syllabus because of the number of accidents, although I've not see any real evidence; my suspicion is that too many people may have been trying to spin in inappropriate aircraft with inappropriate FIs, possibly in inappropriate cirmuctances - the horror stories one hears of deliberate spinning carried out underneath the London TMA, as an example, simply beggars belief.
Spin training in suitable, well maintained aircraft, taught by experienced FIs who have spent a lot of their time teaching spins, is the only safe way to go. I am clearly biased instructing at Ultimate High but we do spend an awful lot of time teaching people specifically on this issue; spins are definitely NOT just an academic exercise, nor are they things that happen soley to aerobatic pilots - there are a whole bunch of environmental issues that cause an upset that may well end up in a spin.
And taking it even further forward, exploring the non-standard spin in an Extra can be hugely beneficial - why does the spin become flat and/or accelerated? In an inverted spin, is the fact that the direction of yaw is opposite to the direction of roll really going to be your lead indicator that the spin is inverted? And which way is outspin aileron if you are inverted? And if you are completely disorientated and find yourself unexpectedly in a spin, how might you figure out the direction of the spin with a broken turn needle? And when might a turn coodinator kill you rather than save your life?
Does everybody reading this need this skills? If you drone through the middle 20% of the flight envelope, ensure that you are always in balance at all times and stay above the Vs for your individual configuration (spins obviously need the combination of stall and yaw) then you may well be ok. Me, I'd rather know that if my aeroplane gets inadvertently put into an extreme UP that may cause a spin if mishandled, that I will rapidly recognise what has happened and will immiediately be able to apply the control recovery actions that gets the aeroplane back to S+L (or climbing) with the absolute minimum in loss of height.
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...and option (b)?
Nice plane, was introduced to them just recently (as a pax that was allowed to play, not the PIC) and my opionion: VERY cool.
(G-EMMA - 'fraid you've outdone me there hon!! Best I can do is CPL (A) and (H), lol! Aerody-what?
)
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Spinning.. been there, done that - in gliders (still compulsory). Scared the cr*p out of me as a slightly nervous stude - took me a while to get over it - these days it's part of my new type familiarisation routine: high tow and explore stalling in various manners and the odd spin, get used to the feel, and the reactions of that particular aeroplane. But then gliders spend a lot of time going round in circles near to the stall...
Now I'm training powered, I *will* do spinning. Not looking forward to it I'll confess as these short winged heavy things are far more vicious in departure than I'm used to. But I'll feel more comfortable for having done it. I'll also do aeros - doing that in gliders has done wonders for my confidence and comfort in handling - it's made 'unusual attitudes' if not quite usual, not completely abnormal either!
One thing experience has taught is that stall/spin avoidance is all well and good.. but it's amazing what you can miss when overloaded/otherwise focussed. Kinda hard to miss having entered a spin however, and nice to have recovery actions instinctive.
That said I suspect that the most likely time to pitch the average tin can into a spin is around the base/final turn which is gonna result in a smoking hole no matter what the hands and feet do
Now I'm training powered, I *will* do spinning. Not looking forward to it I'll confess as these short winged heavy things are far more vicious in departure than I'm used to. But I'll feel more comfortable for having done it. I'll also do aeros - doing that in gliders has done wonders for my confidence and comfort in handling - it's made 'unusual attitudes' if not quite usual, not completely abnormal either!
One thing experience has taught is that stall/spin avoidance is all well and good.. but it's amazing what you can miss when overloaded/otherwise focussed. Kinda hard to miss having entered a spin however, and nice to have recovery actions instinctive.
That said I suspect that the most likely time to pitch the average tin can into a spin is around the base/final turn which is gonna result in a smoking hole no matter what the hands and feet do
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That said I suspect that the most likely time to pitch the average tin can into a spin is around the base turn which is gonna result in a smoking hole no matter what the hands and feet do
1. Factual information
1.1 History of the flight
1.1.1 On 21 January 2003, the student pilot had scheduled a solo training sortie with a Paraparaumu-based training organisation. On his arrival at the aerodrome, he discussed the flight with his instructor, particularly with regard to the suitability of the wind conditions for circuit work.
1.1.2 It was agreed that the instructor would accompany the student initially, to confirm that the wind strength was acceptable for the student’s level of experience.
1.1.3 After two circuits using runway 34, the instructor was satisfied that the student was competent to continue on his own, and sent him solo.
1.1.4 The first circuit resulted in a go-around. During the second circuit the aircraft had reached a late downwind position from where it normally would have turned on to base leg, and was next seen in a spin or spiral towards the ground.
1.1.5 The aircraft collided with a wooden power pole at the front of a residential property and continued at a steep angle of descent into the front yard of the property. The pilot was killed in the impact sequence.
1.1 History of the flight
1.1.1 On 21 January 2003, the student pilot had scheduled a solo training sortie with a Paraparaumu-based training organisation. On his arrival at the aerodrome, he discussed the flight with his instructor, particularly with regard to the suitability of the wind conditions for circuit work.
1.1.2 It was agreed that the instructor would accompany the student initially, to confirm that the wind strength was acceptable for the student’s level of experience.
1.1.3 After two circuits using runway 34, the instructor was satisfied that the student was competent to continue on his own, and sent him solo.
1.1.4 The first circuit resulted in a go-around. During the second circuit the aircraft had reached a late downwind position from where it normally would have turned on to base leg, and was next seen in a spin or spiral towards the ground.
1.1.5 The aircraft collided with a wooden power pole at the front of a residential property and continued at a steep angle of descent into the front yard of the property. The pilot was killed in the impact sequence.
(Sorry i would have provided link to this but opens as a PDF on webpage, got a bit lost...)
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That said I suspect that the most likely time to pitch the average tin can into a spin is around the base/final turn which is gonna result in a smoking hole no matter what the hands and feet do
Spot on, which is why training focussing on accurate real world scenarios (especially including variations on the above) is so pertinent. Being aware of the high danger situations in the first place gives our studes a fighting chance.
Far too many FIs put the stall/spin awareness into a theoretical/academic package rather than work hard to apply it to the real world, resulting in occassional horrific cries like "I can't possibly have stalled, I haven't done my HASELL checks"....
Spot on, which is why training focussing on accurate real world scenarios (especially including variations on the above) is so pertinent. Being aware of the high danger situations in the first place gives our studes a fighting chance.
Far too many FIs put the stall/spin awareness into a theoretical/academic package rather than work hard to apply it to the real world, resulting in occassional horrific cries like "I can't possibly have stalled, I haven't done my HASELL checks"....
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Beware, eharding is a skygod with a Pitts, Yak 52 and gazillions of hours.
He is also able to polish off 20oz steaks with all the trimmings in the middle of an aerobatic contest...yes, I have actually seen him do this with my own eyes!! .....but back to the subject:
I do think there is great merit in getting some experience on what an aircraft feels like at the edge of its envelope and not just spins. Generally I don't have time to calculate the amount of G I am allowed in an x degree banked turn at y airspeed. I feel it via the controls. I also think that 1 hr in a PPL course isn't sufficient, hence the need to stay well away from the edge of the envelope during and after a basic PPL course.
I would encourage new pilots to take at least a few hours aerobatic course in an aerobatic aircraft, not just a quick spin or two in a basic trainer. Even if they never do aerobatics again I'm sure it will improve their straight and level flying significantly.
He is also able to polish off 20oz steaks with all the trimmings in the middle of an aerobatic contest...yes, I have actually seen him do this with my own eyes!! .....but back to the subject:
I do think there is great merit in getting some experience on what an aircraft feels like at the edge of its envelope and not just spins. Generally I don't have time to calculate the amount of G I am allowed in an x degree banked turn at y airspeed. I feel it via the controls. I also think that 1 hr in a PPL course isn't sufficient, hence the need to stay well away from the edge of the envelope during and after a basic PPL course.
I would encourage new pilots to take at least a few hours aerobatic course in an aerobatic aircraft, not just a quick spin or two in a basic trainer. Even if they never do aerobatics again I'm sure it will improve their straight and level flying significantly.