Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!
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BEagle, I wasn't suggesting using rudder to level wings. I was taught to use rudder to prevent any further wing drop and to never use aileron, control column centrally forward at the same time going through to full power (in reality it is setting an attitude that the warning goes off), roll wings level if necessary and when at a safe airspeed set the vy attitude.
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A typical student scenerio might be (so I have been told), overshoot final, bank a little more to make up for it, pull back a little more to maintain height, whilst the speed bleeds off, the load factor increases and the indicated airspeed rapidly decreases to meet the rapidly increasing stall speed. If that is wrong than my instructor is wrong.
Your instructor is not wrong, he is giving you a plausible scenario. Slim is giving you another plausible scenario.
But wait..... in your instructors scenario, why would the Warrior crash?
You say you know for a 'fact' that it is designed to recover from a wing down stall with the use of aileron and the largest height loss quoted in the PA28-181 POH is 350 feet for stall recovery.
So you turn base at 600', stall and recover at 250' - apart from dented pride, what's your problem?
Seems to me that things don't stack up the way you are figuring them out.
by the way, I'm not flaming you, but as Schein says, sometimes the best learning is uncomfortable.
BTW, BEagle's advice is spot on, as you would expect from someone with his background.
I'm trying to help you round your thinking, that's what I do for a day job.
Your instructor is not wrong, he is giving you a plausible scenario. Slim is giving you another plausible scenario.
But wait..... in your instructors scenario, why would the Warrior crash?
You say you know for a 'fact' that it is designed to recover from a wing down stall with the use of aileron and the largest height loss quoted in the PA28-181 POH is 350 feet for stall recovery.
So you turn base at 600', stall and recover at 250' - apart from dented pride, what's your problem?
Seems to me that things don't stack up the way you are figuring them out.
by the way, I'm not flaming you, but as Schein says, sometimes the best learning is uncomfortable.
BTW, BEagle's advice is spot on, as you would expect from someone with his background.
I'm trying to help you round your thinking, that's what I do for a day job.
G-EMMA - please remember that certain aircraft do not exhibit marked wing drop or pitch forward at the stall! Some may buffet, others may not.. The effect you describe in a Warrior is quite common - but you should also have been taught that a high rate of descent in that condition is also a stall identification.
Classically, warnings that you are getting close to the stall are:
IAS low and decreasing
Controls feel ineffective ('mushy')
Attitude is unusually nose high for level flight
Light buffet may be felt
All that is the aeroplane talking to you, saying "Oi! Keep going and I will stall!"
The identification of a fully developed stall is usually:
Wing drop
Pronounced pitch forward
Increased buffet
High rate of descent
All those are the aeroplane saying "Well, I tried to warn you, but you wouldn't listen! Now, RECOVER!"
Those awful artificial stall warners in most light aircraft are usually set at the wrong AoA value - and often don't even work. NEVER rely on them! Other aircraft (such as the Chipmunk) were fitted with wing root 'toblerone' fittings which ensured that the airflow over the tailplane induced pronounced buffet at the stall.
The RAF used to refer to 'signs' and 'symptoms' of the stall. Incorrectly - try teaching a medical student and you'll soon be corrected. I was - which is why I used to annoy CFS by talking about 'warnings' and 'identifications'. And that's what we had in the VC10 - stall warners which rattled and shook the control column as IAS decreased followed by stall identification stick pushers and loud "A-HOOO-GA" klaxons at the stall! All accompanied by lots of vertical bounce, buffet and quiet whimpering from the navigator.
Remember that you're being trained for a SEP Class Rating, not a Cessna 152 Rating or a PA28 Rating. So stalling behaviour will certainly vary between different aircraft!
If you want to see 'classic' stall behaviour, try the Slingsby T67A. Good positive 'g'-break at the stall - and if you were ever tempted to use aileron at the stall before, you won't be after trying it in the T67A! Good aircraft for teaching stalling and incipient spinning - but not much else!
Lastly, really, really do NOT use the rudder during stalling exercises for anything other than maintaining balance!
PS - Thanks for the kind words, Trapper69!
Classically, warnings that you are getting close to the stall are:
IAS low and decreasing
Controls feel ineffective ('mushy')
Attitude is unusually nose high for level flight
Light buffet may be felt
All that is the aeroplane talking to you, saying "Oi! Keep going and I will stall!"
The identification of a fully developed stall is usually:
Wing drop
Pronounced pitch forward
Increased buffet
High rate of descent
All those are the aeroplane saying "Well, I tried to warn you, but you wouldn't listen! Now, RECOVER!"
Those awful artificial stall warners in most light aircraft are usually set at the wrong AoA value - and often don't even work. NEVER rely on them! Other aircraft (such as the Chipmunk) were fitted with wing root 'toblerone' fittings which ensured that the airflow over the tailplane induced pronounced buffet at the stall.
The RAF used to refer to 'signs' and 'symptoms' of the stall. Incorrectly - try teaching a medical student and you'll soon be corrected. I was - which is why I used to annoy CFS by talking about 'warnings' and 'identifications'. And that's what we had in the VC10 - stall warners which rattled and shook the control column as IAS decreased followed by stall identification stick pushers and loud "A-HOOO-GA" klaxons at the stall! All accompanied by lots of vertical bounce, buffet and quiet whimpering from the navigator.
Remember that you're being trained for a SEP Class Rating, not a Cessna 152 Rating or a PA28 Rating. So stalling behaviour will certainly vary between different aircraft!
If you want to see 'classic' stall behaviour, try the Slingsby T67A. Good positive 'g'-break at the stall - and if you were ever tempted to use aileron at the stall before, you won't be after trying it in the T67A! Good aircraft for teaching stalling and incipient spinning - but not much else!
Lastly, really, really do NOT use the rudder during stalling exercises for anything other than maintaining balance!
PS - Thanks for the kind words, Trapper69!
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G-EMMA
The following quotes from Transport Canada (Stall/Spin awareness feature in October 2003) might interest you
Very few accidental stalls occur from an exaggerated pitch attitude.
The primary cause of an inadvertent spin is one wing exceeding the critical angle of attack while executing a turn with excessive or insufficient rudder, and, to a lesser extent, aileron. In an uncoordinated manoeuvre, the pitot/static instruments, especially the altimeter and airspeed indicator, are unreliable due to the uneven distribution of air pressure over the fuselage. The pilot may not be aware that the critical angle of attack is about to be exceeded until the stall warning device activates. If a stall recovery is not promptly initiated, the aeroplane is more likely to enter an inadvertent spin. The spin that occurs from cross-controlling an aircraft in a skidding turn usually results in rotation in the direction of the rudder being applied, regardless of which wing tip is raised. In a slipping turn, where opposite aileron is held against the rudder, the resultant spin will usually occur in the direction of the applied rudder and opposite the aileron that is being applied.
You might think that the typical low weight training experience means that the Warrior is virtually impossible to stall/spin - but transport Canada's view is clear.
I once inadvertently set the stall warner off on an Archer at 150', as I'd got the rpm set slightly too low and was maintaining the normal landing picture. Being S&L I was able to add power and all was well, but I know from that experience that it can creep up on you. And I was slightly distracted, watching an aircraft ahead on the runway and starting to think about going around.
Also, have you stalled the Warrior with ballast to simulate pax? You are probably flying mostly in or near the utility category - different loadings can have a significant effect on performance.
I am pleased that SS's scenario doesn't apply to your flying, since it is a well known killer of pilots, especially low houred ones
Anyway, hope the above helps.
You are right to focus on the critical angle, but remember in a wing with washout, like the PA28, the progression of the stall will have a part to play in what happens next - mush down or spin.
I've always had a very soft spot for the PA28 - a real lady if treated well.
As an alternative to the T67A, you could try some stalling in a PA38, whcih will also be a good learning experience.
The following quotes from Transport Canada (Stall/Spin awareness feature in October 2003) might interest you
Very few accidental stalls occur from an exaggerated pitch attitude.
The primary cause of an inadvertent spin is one wing exceeding the critical angle of attack while executing a turn with excessive or insufficient rudder, and, to a lesser extent, aileron. In an uncoordinated manoeuvre, the pitot/static instruments, especially the altimeter and airspeed indicator, are unreliable due to the uneven distribution of air pressure over the fuselage. The pilot may not be aware that the critical angle of attack is about to be exceeded until the stall warning device activates. If a stall recovery is not promptly initiated, the aeroplane is more likely to enter an inadvertent spin. The spin that occurs from cross-controlling an aircraft in a skidding turn usually results in rotation in the direction of the rudder being applied, regardless of which wing tip is raised. In a slipping turn, where opposite aileron is held against the rudder, the resultant spin will usually occur in the direction of the applied rudder and opposite the aileron that is being applied.
You might think that the typical low weight training experience means that the Warrior is virtually impossible to stall/spin - but transport Canada's view is clear.
I once inadvertently set the stall warner off on an Archer at 150', as I'd got the rpm set slightly too low and was maintaining the normal landing picture. Being S&L I was able to add power and all was well, but I know from that experience that it can creep up on you. And I was slightly distracted, watching an aircraft ahead on the runway and starting to think about going around.
Also, have you stalled the Warrior with ballast to simulate pax? You are probably flying mostly in or near the utility category - different loadings can have a significant effect on performance.
I am pleased that SS's scenario doesn't apply to your flying, since it is a well known killer of pilots, especially low houred ones
Anyway, hope the above helps.
You are right to focus on the critical angle, but remember in a wing with washout, like the PA28, the progression of the stall will have a part to play in what happens next - mush down or spin.
I've always had a very soft spot for the PA28 - a real lady if treated well.
As an alternative to the T67A, you could try some stalling in a PA38, whcih will also be a good learning experience.
Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 29th Jul 2007 at 16:34.
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I find that people don't get into the habit of using aileron to control a wing drop if in their HASELL they brief in the event of a wing drop, use rudder not aileron.
(Ideally of course you have learnt enough not to get into this situation - but who lives in an ideal world).
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Hey you guys (and gals tho i think G-EMMA yours might be a bit above me ) I think I could get some really good advice from you (and trust me, i'm NOT being smart!!)
I fly a PA-28 160 for my job. Low level (usually around 200ft AGL) photography with the door off always in a constant turn to the right.
I know in THEORY that I should know all the PoF but from what I've read in these posts my knowledge falls way short! (And I'm crapping myself, just quietly, lol!)
I normally fly with 10 degrees of flap, around 2000-2100 rpm, at about 85 kias. I'm not experienced enough by far to "know" the plane well but am starting to get a feel for it
What angle/speed/flap/rpm setting would you suggest for the safest approach to this work?
Let me say again, I AM serious and any input will be greatly appreciated!!!
) I think I could get some really good advice from you (and trust me, i'm NOT being smart!!)I fly a PA-28 160 for my job. Low level (usually around 200ft AGL) photography with the door off always in a constant turn to the right.
I know in THEORY that I should know all the PoF but from what I've read in these posts my knowledge falls way short! (And I'm crapping myself, just quietly, lol!)
I normally fly with 10 degrees of flap, around 2000-2100 rpm, at about 85 kias. I'm not experienced enough by far to "know" the plane well but am starting to get a feel for it
What angle/speed/flap/rpm setting would you suggest for the safest approach to this work?
Let me say again, I AM serious and any input will be greatly appreciated!!!
A belated reply to VFE re: bete noir; I wanted to fly basic aerobatics and had spins locked in my head as being potentially terrifying. Fortunately I found tht they were a lot of fun (from 6,000' anyway).
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Spins are just as much fun from 2500 ft and inverted spins even more interesting.
Try some aeros and you'll enjoy the spins rather than living in fear of them.
BTW I tried to simulate a base to final turn at 2000 ft. I pulled a bit to hard and ruddered a bit too hard on purpose.
Didn't really get a spin because my reaction was to let go of everything. I did do about 180 degree turn and lost 200-300 ft while I was 30 degrees nose down with wings vertical. My natural reaction is/was to push forward and get off the rudder, however if it hadn't been automatic I would have lost a lot more height, not in a spin but a spiral dive. Worth trying sometime up high to know what the limit feels like...(usual caveats apply, instructor, aerobatic aircraft etc.).
Try some aeros and you'll enjoy the spins rather than living in fear of them.
BTW I tried to simulate a base to final turn at 2000 ft. I pulled a bit to hard and ruddered a bit too hard on purpose.
Didn't really get a spin because my reaction was to let go of everything. I did do about 180 degree turn and lost 200-300 ft while I was 30 degrees nose down with wings vertical. My natural reaction is/was to push forward and get off the rudder, however if it hadn't been automatic I would have lost a lot more height, not in a spin but a spiral dive. Worth trying sometime up high to know what the limit feels like...(usual caveats apply, instructor, aerobatic aircraft etc.).
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Remember that you're being trained for a SEP Class Rating
Tailwheel,
VP prop,
Turbo,
Undercarriage,
G1000
These are all out (I will ignore pressure as not really relevant).
.. .. .. and if these "types" are out then perhaps it would have been sensible to "type" anything that is known to significantly drop a wing and to enter a spin quickly. At least additional training on such types would seem more relevant that training someone how to woble a prop!
On top of that I would be interested to see your average new PPL fly a YAK for example.
In much the same way as a multi rating, the SEP rating is becoming more of a rating encompassing certain "types" of SEPs but not others.
In the context of this discussion, that is why a new PPL is more out of harms way turning final in the types of SEPs on which he has been taught than in something that might really bite back.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by Zulu Alpha
Spins are just as much fun from 2500 ft and inverted spins even more interesting.
Try some aeros and you'll enjoy the spins rather than living in fear of them.
Try some aeros and you'll enjoy the spins rather than living in fear of them.
Although there was a spin last year that scared the crepe out of me - I think you were there at the time - in fact, it wasn't the spin, it was the split-S immediately afterwards that had the laxative effect - although I was half a mile away from the aircraft, stuffing a pie in my face at the time. Still trying to get his size 12 boot marks off the instrument panel......
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Oh yes Waterford...didn't see it but everyone has told me about it.
I hear that Top Totty just dived for cover... the sissy, he was supposed to be judging.
Just to explain, spins in a Yak 52 use quite a lot of height. A split S (half roll plus the downward half of a loop) also uses quite a bit of height. Doing one after the other in a YAK 52 uses lots and lots of height...not really a good plan but I suspect the red veil of competition obscured all sense of self preservation.
Ed, Are you offering free rides in the YAK or do we have to pay for fuel?
I hear that Top Totty just dived for cover... the sissy, he was supposed to be judging.
Just to explain, spins in a Yak 52 use quite a lot of height. A split S (half roll plus the downward half of a loop) also uses quite a bit of height. Doing one after the other in a YAK 52 uses lots and lots of height...not really a good plan but I suspect the red veil of competition obscured all sense of self preservation.
Ed, Are you offering free rides in the YAK or do we have to pay for fuel?
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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The correct figure was a roll-off-the-top. The split S was the figure directly below it as drawn on the sequence card - probably a lesson for us all in sequence design. The big lad flying the spin/split S/judge-worrying combo hasn't been back to a competition, which is a bit of a shame, but post Waterford he got himself a 20-something girlfriend (he being a 40-something old git like the rest of us) with a kite-surfing habit, so he's spent the year hurling himself at rocks in Cornwall, and when not doing that he's not been able to answer the phone on account of being otherwise occupied. The git.
Always happy to fly fellow competitors in the tractor....my treat. You can get lunch. The Ivchenko at 82% will burn about £160 of avgas an hour...at lunch I can consume about £190 of the Waltham special's board menu an hour - but I'll skip the soup to leave room for the dessert - your call.
Actually, *very* happy to provide a complementary 52 trip the weekend before the Nationals....in true Terry Thomas fashion, it occurred to me you might just dislocate a shoulder trying the roll the brute....dreadful luck old boy...and then the same for a couple of dozen of others and I might be within a country mile of a gong....some hope
Always happy to fly fellow competitors in the tractor....my treat. You can get lunch. The Ivchenko at 82% will burn about £160 of avgas an hour...at lunch I can consume about £190 of the Waltham special's board menu an hour - but I'll skip the soup to leave room for the dessert - your call.
Actually, *very* happy to provide a complementary 52 trip the weekend before the Nationals....in true Terry Thomas fashion, it occurred to me you might just dislocate a shoulder trying the roll the brute....dreadful luck old boy...and then the same for a couple of dozen of others and I might be within a country mile of a gong....some hope
Last edited by eharding; 31st Jul 2007 at 23:19.
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Yesterday at my fly school they told me i was moving in the middle of my training to the new sylabus.
I was still following the old sylabus.
Now there is NO SPIN TRAINING ANYMORE !!!
i was the last student of my flying school that had spin training!! Glad i had fun with it!
I was still following the old sylabus.
Now there is NO SPIN TRAINING ANYMORE !!!
i was the last student of my flying school that had spin training!! Glad i had fun with it!
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"We should all now belt up and reflect on the wisdom of his words."
I had hoped to avoid entering the fray on this one (far too much time can be devoted to this Prruning business) but an invitation like this is hard to refuse! Beagle's observations are indeed wisdom to be found in a field of muddled and sometimes dangerous thinking - I am reflecting most profoundly . . .
I was interested in the Warrior - never flown one - having seemingly "reverse" washout. Seems like a good idea if it maintains aileron control at lower airspeeds so people are less tempted to whack in a bootfull of rudder at precisely the point that it is not needed.
There has been some drift from the original posting with the muddling of "stall recovery" and "spin recovery". In a properly regulated aircraft, one has nothing to do with the other.
GQ
I had hoped to avoid entering the fray on this one (far too much time can be devoted to this Prruning business) but an invitation like this is hard to refuse! Beagle's observations are indeed wisdom to be found in a field of muddled and sometimes dangerous thinking - I am reflecting most profoundly . . .
I was interested in the Warrior - never flown one - having seemingly "reverse" washout. Seems like a good idea if it maintains aileron control at lower airspeeds so people are less tempted to whack in a bootfull of rudder at precisely the point that it is not needed.
There has been some drift from the original posting with the muddling of "stall recovery" and "spin recovery". In a properly regulated aircraft, one has nothing to do with the other.
GQ
