Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Post 3 contained only one sentance. Could you point me to the sentance you refer please?
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VFE.
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VFE.
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I won't pass my opinion on your instructor, who spent an hour teaching you spin recovery, as this would not be particularly good form from a fellow professional, but if you have any intuition you'll be able to work it out for yourself really.
You lost me with the bader stuff
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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It is all slotting into place now that I see the original poster is female! Would not have been a male instructor perchance? Ignore everything I have said - pulling a bit of crumpet is far more important than a hazy safety issue.... apologies to the instructor for any inference that statement may have implied... I'm sure he just thrilled her with a few spins and then took her out for a drink afterwards. No harm done. 
VFE.
Disclaimer: VFE accepts no responsiblity for this shamelessly sexist posting.
VFE.
Disclaimer: VFE accepts no responsiblity for this shamelessly sexist posting.
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I would agree that removing spinning from the PPL sylabus was not a bad thing - ideally IMHO everyone should do spin training, but many PPL students were so wary of spinning that when they did it they were so terrified that they actually learnt very little and it was effectively ticking the box to say they had done it, it sometimes put people off continuing with the PPL and so was not productive, most of these people though are the type that stay well inside their comfort zone - I would however encourage people who are interested to cover spinning, either during or after their PPLs, properly taught in the right aircraft they should both learn more about how the aircraft handles and gain a respect for spinning that "spin appreciation" will not give and a good instructor should be giving guidance on the advisability of them carrying out solo practice with their level of capability.I would certainly not knock another instructor for expanding someones experience in this way, especially when I do not know much about the circumstances in which it was done. 
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You lost me with the bader stuff
Flew a Gamecock, great stick and rudder guy, knew the plane backwards.
Converted to a Bulldog (Bristol) and did an aero manouver at low altitude, which he'd done many times in the Gamecock.
The 'dog bit him and he ended up on tin legs.
Flew a Gamecock, great stick and rudder guy, knew the plane backwards.
Converted to a Bulldog (Bristol) and did an aero manouver at low altitude, which he'd done many times in the Gamecock.
The 'dog bit him and he ended up on tin legs.
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But what's it got to do with a person who asked to be taken for a spin by her instructor, got taken for a spin by her instructor, and thoroughly enjoyed it? Now she has something to look forward and work towards beyond her PPL, isn't that what we should be encouraging? Two consenting adults with no evidence of any improper tuition. Nobody forced her to go spinning, it 's not on the syllabus, that bit was dragged in by others.
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Two consenting adults with no evidence of any improper tuition.
Personally, if it is your sort of thing, I see no reason to go and do some spinning at any stage with an instructor, just dont consider it part of your PPL training.
That implies you are being taught how to spin, and how to recover, when in fact it is usually the case that the instructor is only demonstrating to the student how to spin and how to recover. Not the same thing at all.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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The main crux of the point I have been attempting to make (and it appears you are trying desperately to avoid grasping slim_slag) is that, had this instructor demonstrated the recovery followed by the student recovering the aircraft themselves (6 times was it?) then that student *may* (not saying will) think they can enter a spin and recover safely whereas in actual fact they have not undergone a proper course of instruction to do so.
One hour does not qualify. Sorry, but being of average ability it took me many attempts before my instructor deemed me sufficiently qualified to do spins by myself. Cetainly more than one hour. However, I knew more training was to come and didn't naively post on PPRuNE telling the world that I'd undergone my spin training.
Sadly history shows that because of this spin recovery training during their PPL some folks (including the poor non aero-rated instructors themselves I might add!) copped it. I know one instructor now wheelchair bound as a result of a student locking onto the controls during spin recovery training and them smacking into the ground.
The reference to Bader was that rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men however, as Final 3 Greens said, even the best can be tripped up by the macho complex overriding the basic RAF rule of no low-level aeros. He found out the reason why the hard way (and I might add continued doing so when he got his pilot ticket back, but I digress!) When instructing I (for self preservation purposes) assume everyone to be the fool. Much safer that way.
I think we can at least all admit that whilst fun, even a full hour of spin recovery training is not adequate for completing the manouvre succesfully, especially for a student only a few hours into their PPL. Please re-read the original post and tell me that the student who started this thread does not demonstrate an attitude which says "I have done my spin training.." Indeed the very thread is labelled such! This is what alarmed me initially.
It really is not a clever nor convoluted point many instructors here have tried to make is it? If you don't understand by now then I am afraid my time here is done.
VFE.
One hour does not qualify. Sorry, but being of average ability it took me many attempts before my instructor deemed me sufficiently qualified to do spins by myself. Cetainly more than one hour. However, I knew more training was to come and didn't naively post on PPRuNE telling the world that I'd undergone my spin training.
Sadly history shows that because of this spin recovery training during their PPL some folks (including the poor non aero-rated instructors themselves I might add!) copped it. I know one instructor now wheelchair bound as a result of a student locking onto the controls during spin recovery training and them smacking into the ground.
The reference to Bader was that rules are there for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men however, as Final 3 Greens said, even the best can be tripped up by the macho complex overriding the basic RAF rule of no low-level aeros. He found out the reason why the hard way (and I might add continued doing so when he got his pilot ticket back, but I digress!) When instructing I (for self preservation purposes) assume everyone to be the fool. Much safer that way.
I think we can at least all admit that whilst fun, even a full hour of spin recovery training is not adequate for completing the manouvre succesfully, especially for a student only a few hours into their PPL. Please re-read the original post and tell me that the student who started this thread does not demonstrate an attitude which says "I have done my spin training.." Indeed the very thread is labelled such! This is what alarmed me initially.
It really is not a clever nor convoluted point many instructors here have tried to make is it? If you don't understand by now then I am afraid my time here is done.
VFE.
The fact of the matter is at 1,000 feet your chances of recovery are very poor - period.
fwiw my feeling is that spin training pre-PPL is more dangerous than valuable. But post-PPL, once a pilot has some real experience and feel for flying, say around the 200-300 hour mark, some spin and unusual attitude training is an extremely good idea. There must be a reason why the airlines have their students do this (the ones that train round here anyway), and it's not because they expect people to go and flip their 777s inverted.
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I'm a bit puzzled by this.
In such a scenerio the spin is clearly going to be in circumstances where the pilot was not expecting it, and therefore probably becasue his attention was being distracted by other issues.
My point was he has had no or very little spin "training" (as has been said an hour at best, and maybe only a couple of demonstrations), things go horribly wrong, the plane stalls at 700 feet turning into final, the wing continues to drop in the stalled turn, the noise rapidly pitches forward and the aircraft enters a spin. That is the typical scenario.
As you will know you react to an intentional spin becasue you are intending for it to happen. The actions are already rehearsed by your brain. In fact you even know which way the aircraft will be spinning and whether it is erect or inverted. In a botched aero or in the above scenario you are not expecting the aircraft to spin. Your reaction time starts at best from the moment you realise you are spinning. If you do everything right now you are already a long way behind the game in terms of the time you have, and that is if you react immediately. Would a new pilot do so?
I guess in the States they still do power on stalls. I have always thought this a good idea as it is the other classic scenerio. A go-round, or the pilot realises he is too low on the approach, and in his haste pulls the noise up and stalls, power on. It can be more of a gotcha than the former.
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I guess in the States they still do power on stalls.
I heard (no evidence to back this up whatsoever mind!) that when spin recovery formed part of the PPL, around 50-60% of students gave up the training immeadiately after - any truth to that?
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Yes, straight ahead and turning. I've only ever accidently stalled when departing at high density altitudes.
Strictly speaking it's watch the angle of attack 
. The thing that will kill you is the skidding turn which tends to happen when you realise you are going to shoot through final and you use rudder to tighten the turn. That is a very very risky thing to do, if you drop a wing you are in big trouble.
Nothing wrong with being uncoordinated if you are slipping, in fact it's a skill all PPL students should be able to demonstrate. But again, watch the angle of attack. If your nose is pointing towards the ground you should be fine. If you get to fly something like a supercub you can start your slip abeam the numbers and almost fly sideways to the threshold, round out and plonk it down on the numbers. Perfectly safe, if done properly, and good fun. Controllers like it too, request a short approach when downwind, if it's that sort of towered field.
Just don't skid. That will potentially kill you if close to the ground, doesn't matter if you are the world's greatest spin recovery artist, it spells trouble. Basically, you will not spin if you are co-ordinated at high angles of bank, the reason you limit your bank in a circuit/pattern is to aid visibility. Teaching co-ordinated flight to a student is very important indeed.
Whether spinning is appropriate for the PPL syllabus is an argument that has been going on for decades. There is no proper answer, I would never criticise a qualified instructor in a suitable machine for demonstrating spins and the recovery, and even letting the student do it themselves. Should it be in the syllabus? Probably not, IMO, as long as spin awareness is drummed in. But I'm not too bothered if it was - as long as spin awareness is drummed in.
Originally Posted by g-emma
What needs to be taught is to watch the airspeed and keep the bank to <20 degrees?
. The thing that will kill you is the skidding turn which tends to happen when you realise you are going to shoot through final and you use rudder to tighten the turn. That is a very very risky thing to do, if you drop a wing you are in big trouble.Nothing wrong with being uncoordinated if you are slipping, in fact it's a skill all PPL students should be able to demonstrate. But again, watch the angle of attack. If your nose is pointing towards the ground you should be fine. If you get to fly something like a supercub you can start your slip abeam the numbers and almost fly sideways to the threshold, round out and plonk it down on the numbers. Perfectly safe, if done properly, and good fun. Controllers like it too, request a short approach when downwind, if it's that sort of towered field.
Just don't skid. That will potentially kill you if close to the ground, doesn't matter if you are the world's greatest spin recovery artist, it spells trouble. Basically, you will not spin if you are co-ordinated at high angles of bank, the reason you limit your bank in a circuit/pattern is to aid visibility. Teaching co-ordinated flight to a student is very important indeed.
Whether spinning is appropriate for the PPL syllabus is an argument that has been going on for decades. There is no proper answer, I would never criticise a qualified instructor in a suitable machine for demonstrating spins and the recovery, and even letting the student do it themselves. Should it be in the syllabus? Probably not, IMO, as long as spin awareness is drummed in. But I'm not too bothered if it was - as long as spin awareness is drummed in.
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I don't think the issue is being able to get into a spin and get out of it. This will always be marginal if started from 700-800 ft on the base to final turn.
The issue is knowing what it feels like when the aircraft is about to spin and then knowing what to do to stop it from starting the spin.
Pulling a bit harder and using some extra rudder to make sure you don't overshoot the base to final turn will bite. Go up high and have it shown to you properly so that you know how suddenly it happens , what the controls feel like just before and then you will be much better at avoiding it in the future.
Then the biggest risk will be getting addicted to aerobatics!!
I also think that having the instructor show you by just demonstrating doesn't help, you have to do it yourself . This also has the benefit that you will feel much less uncomfortable. Good instructors can sit there and instruct, bad ones just do it for you which isn't anywhere near as much help.
The issue is knowing what it feels like when the aircraft is about to spin and then knowing what to do to stop it from starting the spin.
Pulling a bit harder and using some extra rudder to make sure you don't overshoot the base to final turn will bite. Go up high and have it shown to you properly so that you know how suddenly it happens , what the controls feel like just before and then you will be much better at avoiding it in the future.
Then the biggest risk will be getting addicted to aerobatics!!
I also think that having the instructor show you by just demonstrating doesn't help, you have to do it yourself . This also has the benefit that you will feel much less uncomfortable. Good instructors can sit there and instruct, bad ones just do it for you which isn't anywhere near as much help.
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If you refer to the original poster me as a female, eugh... i'm male! Sorry guys!!
I did fully recovered spin myself, but i don't feel that i'm fully 100% trained on the subject, i do feel that if i got into a full developped spin i guess i could recover myself, that's my feeling, but to go solo spinning i would need more training to be safe and sure.
Today i flew again, we did some power on stalls, clean stalls, spin recovery at incipient stage, and simulated stalls/spins in turning final at around 2000ft
Yesterday after the spinning a felt great and flying was much more confident, today i felt a bit weird doing these stall excercices because i tought i would each time go into a full developped spin wich we didn't ofcorse due to the use of the correct recovery technique. But i feel that knowing that you go do the spin is easier than constantly thinking, i COULD get into a spin doing this... i had around 16kts crosswinds during takeoff and the complete flying lesson was really bumpy with winds up to 25kts but i guess that is normall drill in Europe!!
Next lesson i will continue on these excercices but not with the intention of spinning but more recovering.
Today i had another instructor who knew i did the spin training yesterday, i asked him several times in the air, are we going to fully spin ? He said we will see about that, i told him i rather like to know it before, he was i guess a little annoyed by me asking that, so at the end of the flight, i got some other person of the flight school explaining me that if i do the PPL in the 152 the examiner could ask me to do a full spin recovery. (i don't agree with them but didn't felt like arguing a lot today with them)
I guess they mean it very well, but the spin is a very impressive maneuvre, and i'm really happy i did it yesterday, i still believe to be a good pilot you must get the most training as difficult as possible, in the worse possible situations, even if you do have to push your own limits step by step...
I'm also very sure that i would go post-PPL for a real basic aerobatics instruction lessons, with a good aerobatic school. That can't make you a worse pilot.
I have plenty training on how to recover and prevent spins/stalls.
I still think that every pilot should get his spin training!!!!!!
I did fully recovered spin myself, but i don't feel that i'm fully 100% trained on the subject, i do feel that if i got into a full developped spin i guess i could recover myself, that's my feeling, but to go solo spinning i would need more training to be safe and sure.
Today i flew again, we did some power on stalls, clean stalls, spin recovery at incipient stage, and simulated stalls/spins in turning final at around 2000ft
Yesterday after the spinning a felt great and flying was much more confident, today i felt a bit weird doing these stall excercices because i tought i would each time go into a full developped spin wich we didn't ofcorse due to the use of the correct recovery technique. But i feel that knowing that you go do the spin is easier than constantly thinking, i COULD get into a spin doing this... i had around 16kts crosswinds during takeoff and the complete flying lesson was really bumpy with winds up to 25kts but i guess that is normall drill in Europe!!
Next lesson i will continue on these excercices but not with the intention of spinning but more recovering.
Today i had another instructor who knew i did the spin training yesterday, i asked him several times in the air, are we going to fully spin ? He said we will see about that, i told him i rather like to know it before, he was i guess a little annoyed by me asking that, so at the end of the flight, i got some other person of the flight school explaining me that if i do the PPL in the 152 the examiner could ask me to do a full spin recovery. (i don't agree with them but didn't felt like arguing a lot today with them)
I guess they mean it very well, but the spin is a very impressive maneuvre, and i'm really happy i did it yesterday, i still believe to be a good pilot you must get the most training as difficult as possible, in the worse possible situations, even if you do have to push your own limits step by step...
I'm also very sure that i would go post-PPL for a real basic aerobatics instruction lessons, with a good aerobatic school. That can't make you a worse pilot.
I have plenty training on how to recover and prevent spins/stalls.
I still think that every pilot should get his spin training!!!!!!
I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed my 1 hr of spinning.
IMHO experiencing a spin and recovery at any stage of training or experience is not intrinsically bad. To say it is would be like suggesting that learning an emergency stop for a vehicle driving licence is a bad thing because it encourages people to drive too close to the car in front. Perhaps a better analogy is the use of a skid pan in driver training, which is not part of the driving test, but should be IMHO. Let's not open that bag of worms!
I don't for one minute feel I am 'trained' in the art of spinning after an hour in a Firefly and I certainly won't be going up on my own for the purpose of spinning a 152. I do my utmost to avoid getting into a position where I might stall, let alone spin!
I DO NOT fly less carefully because I had that experience and it's nonsense to suggest that people who try spinning at 3500ft are losing sight of the real danger, that is, for example, stalling on turning base to final. To be frank, at 1000ft no PPL is going to recover unless they're lucky.
So, the spinning I did was not 'training' but 'experience' to which I can instinctively turn in the future. A bit like that dodgy experience I had with a crosswind landing, which I am glad I had but which I will not intentionally repeat.
When we are spend thousands of pounds training, why on earth is anyone suggesting that an hour spinning is money badly or unnecessarily spent? Personally, I think the PPL is too short!
IMHO experiencing a spin and recovery at any stage of training or experience is not intrinsically bad. To say it is would be like suggesting that learning an emergency stop for a vehicle driving licence is a bad thing because it encourages people to drive too close to the car in front. Perhaps a better analogy is the use of a skid pan in driver training, which is not part of the driving test, but should be IMHO. Let's not open that bag of worms!
I don't for one minute feel I am 'trained' in the art of spinning after an hour in a Firefly and I certainly won't be going up on my own for the purpose of spinning a 152. I do my utmost to avoid getting into a position where I might stall, let alone spin!
I DO NOT fly less carefully because I had that experience and it's nonsense to suggest that people who try spinning at 3500ft are losing sight of the real danger, that is, for example, stalling on turning base to final. To be frank, at 1000ft no PPL is going to recover unless they're lucky.
So, the spinning I did was not 'training' but 'experience' to which I can instinctively turn in the future. A bit like that dodgy experience I had with a crosswind landing, which I am glad I had but which I will not intentionally repeat.
When we are spend thousands of pounds training, why on earth is anyone suggesting that an hour spinning is money badly or unnecessarily spent? Personally, I think the PPL is too short!
Awesome but Affordable
MikeHotel152 said -
"Personally, I think the PPL is too short!"
Well you might think so since its a free country.
However being a somewhat vertically challenged 69 year old NPPL(SSEA) I am NOT in favour of having a specific minimum height or any other physical dimension incorporated into the ANO or any EASA regulation. Same thing applies in the maximum case too. If the cockpit or cabin fits then I insist on wearing it.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - I can however think of one or two aircraft types where it would have been much better for my potential longevity prospects had they been too large or indeed too small. I shudder at the memory.
"Personally, I think the PPL is too short!"
Well you might think so since its a free country.
However being a somewhat vertically challenged 69 year old NPPL(SSEA) I am NOT in favour of having a specific minimum height or any other physical dimension incorporated into the ANO or any EASA regulation. Same thing applies in the maximum case too. If the cockpit or cabin fits then I insist on wearing it.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
PS - I can however think of one or two aircraft types where it would have been much better for my potential longevity prospects had they been too large or indeed too small. I shudder at the memory.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Oh nooooooooooooo! I feel another stick position/critical angle debate coming on with that posting Final 3 Greens!! 
VFE.
VFE.
