Today i got my SPiN TRAINING!

[slim_slag]

G-EMMA,

If you want to know the basics of why base/final turn spins happen then read my earlier post. Then read around the subject, F3G's suggestion is as good as it gets.

You earlier said (referring to warrior)

it will recover from a wing drop with the ailerons in any case

which is the LAST thing you should do if you use rudder to tighten the turn, then get a wing drop.

You should already be able to take off, fly pattern/circuit then land with the airspeed indicator covered. You are not going to stall on base/final turn if you are coordinated unless you pull a really steep turn, got to be over 60degrees. Your airspeed is well above stall in the configuration you are in, and your nose is pointing down anyway.

For a more technical introduction to aerodynamics you can look at Denker's See How It Flies. http://www.av8n.com/how/ It's a bit deep, but believe me, there are books on aerodynamics out there which claim to be simple and which are incomprehensible.

His musings on skids can be found at
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/snaps.html#toc191

[slim_slag]

G-EMMA,

When you say 'that is not the case' then I think you are arguing. I don't have a problem with that, but you need to be sure of yourself, cos people read this site for advice and you will get corrected Go back and read what I said. Just out of interest, what is your background in aerodynamics?

[jamestkirk]

lighten this up a bit.

Put this in your pipe and smoke it.http:
[

url]http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=60+turn+spin+in+a+cessna&search=Search[/url]

Its not linking very well but on you tube search 60 turn spin in a cessna.

[Final 3 Greens]

Not read stick & rudder, but will, my main problem at the moment is keeping my background in aerodynamics in a box, it is mostly from the design perspective, and I'm trying to see it all from the pilots view

That's why Stick and Rudder would be a good read for you IMHO - it approaches the subject matter from the pilot's perspective and I think you'll find it easy reading.

I agree with what Slim says about 'feeling' the aircraft, although the most important senses are probably sight and sound - with experience you will learn 'the picture' and associate the sound of the engine with certain RPM settings and the levels of windrush past the wind with airspeeds.

Don't beat yourself up at this stage of your trainnig - sit back and enjoy yourself in the knowledge that you will really start learning to fly after your PPL is issued.

In the meantime, it sounds as if you have a good instructor to learn from and if you can handle a short rough field like Andrewsfield, then you will be in good shape to fly to most places.

In fact, why not try a trip to Fowlmere when you get the chance, its an old RAF/USAAF satellite close to Duxford and the ghosts of Spits and Mustangs still live there - its also the most beautiful grass strip I've ever had the pleasure to operate from, - landing is like sinking gently into satin Smoother than tarmac.

[Final 3 Greens]

Trouble is most of the explanation in books for the PPL are fudge

Agreed. It makes it harder to understand, doesn't it.

My instructor made me learn met from the CPL syllabus - in fact, it made more sense and was ultimately easier to grasp!

[slim_slag]

No need to bang your head G-EMMA, I put a smiley in there.

One needs to walk before one can run. Purely out of interest, what was your bachelors in?

[Put1992]

I think the fact that it was removed, quite obviously shows that bad things were happening. Now i dont want to do spin training, but i know my instructor will make me do it, as 1. he likes them, 2. he thinks there important, and 3. He wants me to do the best i can, and spin training will prove something. But i feel, that the beggining of an incipient spin can quite easily be avoided with the way a wing drop is treated during stalls, full power, and rudder in the opposite direction.

Matthew

[foxmoth]

but in the Warrior the actual case is that the aileron will remain effective as the wing is designed to stall inboard of the aileron first

Whilst this is true, I would suggest that you do not learn to use this and roll whilst still stalled - this is fine whilst you are flying aircraft such as the warrior but if you then move on to an aircraft where this is not the case you will find it very hard to get out of the habits you have already learnt - and doing it the "correct" way will still work in the Warrior.

[Sagey]

I have a few more hours than one at spinning and other aeros and have sometimes been concerned at hearing stories from pre ppl holders being exhilarated by spinning etc - "the instructor did this then that then this and that" - when some of the manoeuvres you can safely recover from by neutralising everything and bracing. I agree with VFE, spend the early hours concentrating on the key skills, straight and level might be less glamourous but learning how to do it properly and not performance flying without a lookout is much more likely to keep you safe than an hour being spun around.

The few hours after the PPL is issued are statistically the most dangerous, if you keep current with what you are taught in the early days there is time to explore more advanced elements of training later.

S

[slim_slag]

well said foxmouth

G-EMMA, lets turn this imaginary argument into a learning experience. You said

The big killer on the turn to final must be over bank followed by pulling back too much to keep the nose up?

To which the answer is no, but why don't you use your masters knowledge to calculate the actual bank angle when you would stall.

You are in a warrior, have a constant descent from abeam the numbers, speeds and flap settings you would expect at base/final turn. What bank would you stall at if coordinated.

I don't know. Can you calculate it?

[Final 3 Greens]

G-EMMA

but in the Warrior the actual case is that the aileron will remain effective as the wing is designed to stall inboard of the aileron first, by a good margin.

Not beating you up here, but something else for you to think about.
How does the wing stall?

The Warrior has washout that causes a progressive stalling from the inner wing out - does the example you fly have small strips on the inner wing L/E to accentuate this behaviour?

Well anyway, what happens if you allow the progressive stall to continue - do you think that the ailerons will stay effective? What if you add aileron when fully stalled?

Now I'd be the first to say that the tapered wing PA28s are docile aircraft, but if you did manage to lose one I reckon it might bite very hard.

Like you, I have controlled a PA28 with ailerons whilst the wing is partially stalled (under instruction) and it is an informative lesson, but if I did stall one whilst flying by myself, my immediate reaction would be to unload the wing, then sort out the rest - so I agree with Fox.

[VFE]

In fact, why not try a trip to Fowlmere when you get the chance, its an old RAF/USAAF satellite close to Duxford and the ghosts of Spits and Mustangs still live there - its also the most beautiful grass strip I've ever had the pleasure to operate from, - landing is like sinking gently into satin

Or alternatively, just pop down to Bourn and have a nice cuppa tea!

VFE.

[Final 3 Greens]

Fact remains that the Warrior will and was designed to recover from a wing down stall with application of aileron.

Fact?

Please provide substantiation for this claim.

[Sagey]

You always use rudder to control a wing drop, seems to me to be a bad habit to get into and rather type specific. I find that people don't get into the habit of using aileron to control a wing drop if in their HASELL they brief in the event of a wing drop, use rudder not aileron.

[Son of the Bottle]

Hmm, getting slightly agitated as I read this lot. F3G is trying to get the point across, but not quite successfully.

The only reason a wing stalls is due to excessive angle of attack. The only remedy for this is to get the damn stick forward. Picking up a dropped wing whether with rudder or aileron is just icing on the cake, and will get you into yet more trouble unless you get the stick forward first.

Safe flying to all.

SoB

(the above does not apply if you're flying under negative g, but if you are, you know that already, don't you?)

[BEagle]

"You always use rudder to control a wing drop"

Not a good idea - and that fable has been removed from standard stall recovery for years now. Because poorly co-ordinated use of rudder in a stalled condition positively invites an incipient spin. Use only sufficient rudder to maintain balance - 'ball in the middle'!

Standard Stall Recovery (with minimum loss of height) is:

1. FULL power and control column centrally forward.

2. When an attitude is reached at which the stall identification ceases, maintain that atttiude.

3. Then (and only then) - level wings and stop descent.

Too often I see (from graduates of lesser schools):

1. An almighty shove to an extreme nose-down attitude.

2. A trickle of power.

3. Coarse use of rudder in an attempt to 'pick up the wing'.

4. Excessive pitching back to the climb attitude, inducing secondary pre-stall buffet.

An incipinet spin is characterised by undemanded roll rate. In such cases, it is normally safe on most types to centralise the control column and wait, then recover from the resulting manoeuvre. In the Bulldog, the first 360 deg of rotation of an incipient spin can be countered this way.

However, fully-devloped spins require the specific-to-type recovery action stated in the POH.

[Final 3 Greens]

c) If that isn't good enough, contact Piper

That is the correct answer, except you are making the assertion and its up to you to produce a reference e.g. POH or official document, that says the Warrior is designed to recover from a wing down stall with aileron.

I'm not doubting that you have seen the demonstration of aileron effectiveness with a partially stalled wing and I am not going to comment on manoeuvres conducted by test pilots, as their flight regime is different to a PPL's normal regime.

I detect a strong sense of dogma in some of your postings and hope that one day you don't die saying as your last words 'it shouldn't have done that.'

I will also continue to restict my turn to finals to 20 degree max whilst watching the airspeed as advised by my 20,000hr instructor

This is very good advice for an 18 hour student and reflects your instructor's considerable experience; It does not mean that exceeding 20 degrees of bank turning final will kill an experienced pilot, though I agree that distraction is always a potential hole in the cheese.

[slim_slag]

Originally Posted by Mr Person

"try a 45 degree bank onto finals at 75 knots ias and see what happens"

Not much unless you are pulling back and loading the wing, which is unlikely if your are base to final in a decent.

Well spotted Mr Person. It's the fact that you are in a descending turn that makes the answer calculation difficult for the question I originally posed G-EMMA. If in a level turn, there is a handy chart in the warrior handbook that gives stall speeds for different bank angles. You can also work out a level turn angle using a simple force diagram and basic trig. So, yes G-EMMA, bank angle is very relevant to stall speed, and if you read my question you will see why I asked. This was in response to your suggestion that base/final accidents are caused by excessive bank angle followed by stall (now replaced by 'distraction' )



So the answer to my question would be 'over 60 deg' but I don't have the smarts to calculate it in a descending turn, which was the circumstances of the question I posed. If you are at all coordinated and flying recommended speeds (and that is under 75knts), you are very very unlikely to stall because of excessive bank.

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

Excellent point.

To back you up, as a rule of thumb, one can add 50% to the stall speed at 60 degrees bank.

I only have an Archer POH to hand, but the clean stall is 55kias and with full flap 49kias.

So at gross weight, clean, 75kias on an Archer is nearly 1.4vs and with full flap is over 1.5vs.

So, in level flight, you would have departed if clean and be flying on the stall at 75kias and 60 degrees of bank, with full flap.

In a descent, with an unloaded wing and in balance, I think you might get away with a 60 degree turn at 75kias, although the only reason I can think of doing one would be taking avoiding action. I hasten that I would not like to have to do this manouevre!

At 45 degrees bank there is a margin, even clean, in level flight and in a descending turn even more - as I said earlier, I'd be more worried about the resultant RoD than stalling.

[G-KEST]

BEagle in post 92 on this thread summed it up exactly. He describes the most efficient technique for minimum height loss recoveries.

As a former FIE for 28 years I can say that such an effective explanation would have got him an exceptional rating on a renewal test.

We should all now belt up and reflect on the wisdom of his words.

Cheers,

Trapper 69