Bigger airports kicking out General Aviation!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Aberdeen, UK
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As a recent PPL, I'm so disappointed with the attitude towards GA in the UK. Having done my training last year in sunny FL the can do, go anywhere, municipal airports all over the place, general attitude towards GA was idyllic.
Back in blighty - the attitude seems to be *humph*, can't do or no go.
And up in the NE of Scotland - there's only Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness - we're not blessed with many airports as it is - if Inverness locks GA out then it's one less place to go - there's no where else up there at the moment except Dornoch.
I was planning on flying up to Inverness quite a bit over the next 3 years for work - I may well have to suffer that damn road instead
Either that or it's back to America!
You'd think in this day and age that airports might like a friend in the form of GA - the general populous get to fly from the airport on pleasure/training flights, which builds the profile of anotherwise brick wall organisation, demistifies the world of aviation - and maybe next time they want to extend the runways the GA mob would weigh in and support the airfield etc. Getting the public a bit more sympathetic about aviation matters would be no bad thing.
And I pity all the training organisations which will be/have been forced out of decent airports - no wonder most people head to the US these days.
Back in blighty - the attitude seems to be *humph*, can't do or no go.
And up in the NE of Scotland - there's only Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness - we're not blessed with many airports as it is - if Inverness locks GA out then it's one less place to go - there's no where else up there at the moment except Dornoch.
I was planning on flying up to Inverness quite a bit over the next 3 years for work - I may well have to suffer that damn road instead
Either that or it's back to America!You'd think in this day and age that airports might like a friend in the form of GA - the general populous get to fly from the airport on pleasure/training flights, which builds the profile of anotherwise brick wall organisation, demistifies the world of aviation - and maybe next time they want to extend the runways the GA mob would weigh in and support the airfield etc. Getting the public a bit more sympathetic about aviation matters would be no bad thing.
And I pity all the training organisations which will be/have been forced out of decent airports - no wonder most people head to the US these days.
Insch? Near a rail station.
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The way I read it, Inverness are not planning to 'get rid' of GA, just acknowledging that as and when commercial services begin to put a strain on available apron space etc. that they will have priority. Can someone from the area confirm that Inverness is nowhere near this kind of scenario yet, and although the apron space is limited around the terminal, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a grass or concrete GA apron constructed somewhere else on the airfield?
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Yep - we fly out of Insch in the summer months. And there's other grass strips I know, but it's nice coming in and out of larger (hard runway) airfields. Especially in winter.
niknak
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From a purely personal point of view, I am embarrassed and ashamed that my place is one of those is one of those which has hiked fees to make it a considerable financial disatvantage to GA to visit, or even operate as a based operator.
With us , we have our commercial customers to look after, which I accept is obviously the priority for the airport operator, so why not keep GA separate and be looked after at no extra cost on another part of the airfield?
Despite at leats two operators offering to give GA a home, nowt has been done and this really pisses me off.
We've never made any money out of GA and never will, so why not encourage their trade and let them do what they do and the commercial op's pay our way?
With us , we have our commercial customers to look after, which I accept is obviously the priority for the airport operator, so why not keep GA separate and be looked after at no extra cost on another part of the airfield?
Despite at leats two operators offering to give GA a home, nowt has been done and this really pisses me off.
We've never made any money out of GA and never will, so why not encourage their trade and let them do what they do and the commercial op's pay our way?
Upto The Buffers
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09/27 at Leeds wasn't closed just to piss off GA operators, it was mainly to give Jet2 space for parking at the 27 end.
I recently bought a aircraft and it's based at Leeds. Shares in it were so popular I'm probably going to buy another one, also to be based there. The only current constraints for GA at Leeds are the amount of hangar space Multiflight have. Oh, and it's not cheap, but you get what you pay for!
I don't think you have anything to worry about as regards GA there at all. Whilst I can see some airfields making it difficult for GA operators and squeezing them out, having an organisation like Multiflight with a large flying school and a large number of home-based operators does quite a lot to cement GA's position.
Not that I'm saying it will never happen of course, just that in my opinion Leeds is one of the regionals it's least likely to happen at.
I recently bought a aircraft and it's based at Leeds. Shares in it were so popular I'm probably going to buy another one, also to be based there. The only current constraints for GA at Leeds are the amount of hangar space Multiflight have. Oh, and it's not cheap, but you get what you pay for!
I don't think you have anything to worry about as regards GA there at all. Whilst I can see some airfields making it difficult for GA operators and squeezing them out, having an organisation like Multiflight with a large flying school and a large number of home-based operators does quite a lot to cement GA's position.
Not that I'm saying it will never happen of course, just that in my opinion Leeds is one of the regionals it's least likely to happen at.
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The way I read it, Inverness are not planning to 'get rid' of GA, just acknowledging that as and when commercial services begin to put a strain on available apron space etc. that they will have priority. Can someone from the area confirm that Inverness is nowhere near this kind of scenario yet, and although the apron space is limited around the terminal, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a grass or concrete GA apron constructed somewhere else on the airfield?
2006 To 2010.
Light Aircraft - it is acknowledged that from an operational airfield viewpoint the continued growth in activity at the airport will put increased pressure on the operations of the light aircraft community. Moreover, the existing hangar facility used by the club is reaching functional obsolescence and is scheduled for demolition to make way for the expansion of car park 3. Therefore, the proposal as part of the master plan is to provide the flying club with a clearly defined grass area of the airfield which could be occupied on a leasehold basis but on the basis of clear right of vacant possession by the airport.
It is, however, acknowledged that the continued growth in passenger activity will, over time, put increased pressure on these activities and will ultimately lead to a requirement for light aircraft to relocate away from Inverness as has been the case at other expanding regional airports.
2011 To 2020
Light Aircraft - no changes are proposed over the medium term.
2021 To 2030
Light Aircraft - by 2030 light aircraft will have long been relocated off site.
As long as it isn't Doncaster's new airspace (looking at your DSA airspace grab post about avoiding chunks of controlled airspace)?
Thread Starter
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All I was saying is that there is not many places you can fly just to have fun up here except in the Vale Of York AIAA, anywhere else, you have airspace everywhere, class A airspace above you. I do like going through lots of airspace to increase the work load a bit for practice and experience, but I am slowly starting to find that because a lot of controllers are busy, they refuse you entry, then, that really restricts what you can do. I think thats where the airspace in the USA is good, spaced out, and you can enter most of it just on contact with the controller.
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I am quite sure that the airspace in the USA is easier to use. There is also a lot more of it!
Our skies are crowded. Yes there seems to be something of a back door attempt to create controlled airspace all over the country, and if that happens then perhaps we need to look, through the help of organisations like AOPA how we develop a new way of interacting with that.
The bit that makes me laugh over this is that greedy airport managers are quick to kick GA out if they get a whiff of Easy, Ryanair et al, and yet don't give a moments consideration as to where the jet drivers come from. I am quite certain that if you carried out a poll of 100 jet pilots, 95 of them will have at least one hour in a 172 somewhere! We need to sit back and watch carefully. Manager reduce the available areas for GA, GA dries up, then after a while the available pilots for the airlines is woefully short and they start cutting services to cope. Can you see where this is going?
Our skies are crowded. Yes there seems to be something of a back door attempt to create controlled airspace all over the country, and if that happens then perhaps we need to look, through the help of organisations like AOPA how we develop a new way of interacting with that.
The bit that makes me laugh over this is that greedy airport managers are quick to kick GA out if they get a whiff of Easy, Ryanair et al, and yet don't give a moments consideration as to where the jet drivers come from. I am quite certain that if you carried out a poll of 100 jet pilots, 95 of them will have at least one hour in a 172 somewhere! We need to sit back and watch carefully. Manager reduce the available areas for GA, GA dries up, then after a while the available pilots for the airlines is woefully short and they start cutting services to cope. Can you see where this is going?
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Single Spey
You will be pleased to know that it's many years since I shuffled the flying machines. You are, of course, right that "Slow moving, verbose GA pilots are a fact of life". I was merely pointing out that they don't always endear themselves to a busy controller on a busy frequency. Having to ask "say again" because the, often nervous, SEP driver gabbled out his text book transmission so fast that it was unreadable doesn't help. Assuming that he wants to leave your Class A (Rule 22, then) airspace at Buxton when what he said sounded like Barton is not a good idea. The Controller who sounds calm and helpful (because to sound otherwise just makes matters worse) can feel wound up like a watch spring inside.
As an aeroplane owner, I too feel concern about the way the bigger aerodromes are pricing us out. I also feel that there is a case for charging at a variable rate. Discouraging GA traffic during, say, the mid-week teatime rush may have merit; but the charges for the Sunday afternoon siesta time must be fair and reasonable. The solution to everything in our wonderful Country is to price everything to the maximum the "market" can stand. That applies to car parks, public transport, licences and permits for this that and the other, you name it. A further consideration, now, is that any aerodrome that can't immediately satisfy its financial targets will soon be able to get instant Planning Permission for high profit housing. There is also the mind-set of, if you can afford to own an aeroplane and to fly it, you can afford to pay over the odds.
You will be pleased to know that it's many years since I shuffled the flying machines. You are, of course, right that "Slow moving, verbose GA pilots are a fact of life". I was merely pointing out that they don't always endear themselves to a busy controller on a busy frequency. Having to ask "say again" because the, often nervous, SEP driver gabbled out his text book transmission so fast that it was unreadable doesn't help. Assuming that he wants to leave your Class A (Rule 22, then) airspace at Buxton when what he said sounded like Barton is not a good idea. The Controller who sounds calm and helpful (because to sound otherwise just makes matters worse) can feel wound up like a watch spring inside.
As an aeroplane owner, I too feel concern about the way the bigger aerodromes are pricing us out. I also feel that there is a case for charging at a variable rate. Discouraging GA traffic during, say, the mid-week teatime rush may have merit; but the charges for the Sunday afternoon siesta time must be fair and reasonable. The solution to everything in our wonderful Country is to price everything to the maximum the "market" can stand. That applies to car parks, public transport, licences and permits for this that and the other, you name it. A further consideration, now, is that any aerodrome that can't immediately satisfy its financial targets will soon be able to get instant Planning Permission for high profit housing. There is also the mind-set of, if you can afford to own an aeroplane and to fly it, you can afford to pay over the odds.
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Dear CAA,
If you're going to let bigger airports kick out GA could you please get your fingers out and allow training from unlicensed airfields? Oh, and while you're at would you please tell JAA/EASA to F*^K OFF?
Lots of love,
DB6
PS Sorry it's a bit late for Christmas
If you're going to let bigger airports kick out GA could you please get your fingers out and allow training from unlicensed airfields? Oh, and while you're at would you please tell JAA/EASA to F*^K OFF?
Lots of love,
DB6
PS Sorry it's a bit late for Christmas
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Quotes from the Inverness airport Master Plan Proposals:
...
It is, however, acknowledged that the continued growth in passenger activity will, over time, put increased pressure on these activities and will ultimately lead to a requirement for light aircraft to relocate away from Inverness as has been the case at other expanding regional airports.
2011 To 2020
Light Aircraft - no changes are proposed over the medium term.
2021 To 2030
Light Aircraft - by 2030 light aircraft will have long been relocated off site.
...
It is, however, acknowledged that the continued growth in passenger activity will, over time, put increased pressure on these activities and will ultimately lead to a requirement for light aircraft to relocate away from Inverness as has been the case at other expanding regional airports.
2011 To 2020
Light Aircraft - no changes are proposed over the medium term.
2021 To 2030
Light Aircraft - by 2030 light aircraft will have long been relocated off site.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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As with so many things, why can't we British manage what other countries seem to without a fuss (or enormous charges)?
Many EU countries mix GA and commercial traffic without a problem, whilst one of my club instructors who used to teach in the USA was telling me about flying a SEP into New York Kennedy - where he was treated to a landing fee that was so cheap it would put most UK regionals to shame + 2 hours free parking (imagine that at LHR!)
What really bugs me is the attitude of the controllers spreads out from the airport. Solent have gained a real reputation for poor service to GA, whilst along the coast Bournemouth is really helpful. Now, Southampton has become busier over the last couple of years - and they have effectively kicked out GA from the airport, but it is no Heathrow or Gatwick and I cannot see any reason why Solent Radar should behave so miserably towards us.
I transited the Luton zone a while ago - now that's a really busy area - and they couldn't have been more helpful.
HH
Many EU countries mix GA and commercial traffic without a problem, whilst one of my club instructors who used to teach in the USA was telling me about flying a SEP into New York Kennedy - where he was treated to a landing fee that was so cheap it would put most UK regionals to shame + 2 hours free parking (imagine that at LHR!)
What really bugs me is the attitude of the controllers spreads out from the airport. Solent have gained a real reputation for poor service to GA, whilst along the coast Bournemouth is really helpful. Now, Southampton has become busier over the last couple of years - and they have effectively kicked out GA from the airport, but it is no Heathrow or Gatwick and I cannot see any reason why Solent Radar should behave so miserably towards us.
I transited the Luton zone a while ago - now that's a really busy area - and they couldn't have been more helpful.
HH
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What is really needed is a change in planning regs, to enable people to set up full-planning (not 28-day rule) strips in open countryside, with a shed to keep the plane in.
There are thousands of places like that in the UK already, but mostly in areas where aviation activity is widespread so people don't complain (much). Most of them don't have planning so they have to keep visitors out and don't like to share the place with others.
Quite where PPL training is going to move to when the bigger GA fields close to developers, I don't know. Unlicensed strips I guess - just like it was many years ago. But then you really need freelance instructors; something else that has been killed off in recent years.
There are thousands of places like that in the UK already, but mostly in areas where aviation activity is widespread so people don't complain (much). Most of them don't have planning so they have to keep visitors out and don't like to share the place with others.
Quite where PPL training is going to move to when the bigger GA fields close to developers, I don't know. Unlicensed strips I guess - just like it was many years ago. But then you really need freelance instructors; something else that has been killed off in recent years.
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Golf Bravo Zulu
It's also been many years since I 'shuffled the flying machines' although I haven't yet risen to the heights of aeroplane owner - just renter.
I must also add that it isn't always the sole fault of the lowly PPL. I was recently flying in the vicinity of Inverness airport and called on approach for FIS as I would be crossing the approach at 5 miles, 3500 ft, N to S. However the frequency was almost entirely taken up by the controller dealing with one commercial aircraft inbound from the S decsending to 3500 ft, for a visual, and another light aircraft departing to the SE for a rejoin. This must have involved at least three transmissions to each aircraft: passing instructions and clearances, then passing full traffic info to each, and finally passing regionals, winds, threshold elevation etc etc. For an inexperienced PPL just trying to work out when to jump in would have been daunting enough, let alone remebering what to say in which order, whilst safely flying the aircraft, coupled with the fact that the response would probably have gone through all the same traffic info and pressures which sounded very complicated (threshold elevation? never been told that before). Fortunately this was all outside CAS so there wouldn't have been the added pressure of navigating clear of a zone until cleared etc etc. I had time to complete a gentle climbing 360 and must have then covered another 4-5 miles before I had a chance to call.
Thus I do believe that the environment in which ATS is provided can have a big impact on how a PPL interacts with the system. I think it is a very great shame that controllers are not taught to fly at least to the standard of having to plan and execute a cross country through Controlled airspace. This wouldn't have to be solo, but could be carried out with an instructor just there as safety, with the controller doing all the flying, navigating (no GPS) and RT as handling pilot. After all, all controllers talk to pilots, but it doesn't have to be the other way round.
It's also been many years since I 'shuffled the flying machines' although I haven't yet risen to the heights of aeroplane owner - just renter.
I must also add that it isn't always the sole fault of the lowly PPL. I was recently flying in the vicinity of Inverness airport and called on approach for FIS as I would be crossing the approach at 5 miles, 3500 ft, N to S. However the frequency was almost entirely taken up by the controller dealing with one commercial aircraft inbound from the S decsending to 3500 ft, for a visual, and another light aircraft departing to the SE for a rejoin. This must have involved at least three transmissions to each aircraft: passing instructions and clearances, then passing full traffic info to each, and finally passing regionals, winds, threshold elevation etc etc. For an inexperienced PPL just trying to work out when to jump in would have been daunting enough, let alone remebering what to say in which order, whilst safely flying the aircraft, coupled with the fact that the response would probably have gone through all the same traffic info and pressures which sounded very complicated (threshold elevation? never been told that before). Fortunately this was all outside CAS so there wouldn't have been the added pressure of navigating clear of a zone until cleared etc etc. I had time to complete a gentle climbing 360 and must have then covered another 4-5 miles before I had a chance to call.
Thus I do believe that the environment in which ATS is provided can have a big impact on how a PPL interacts with the system. I think it is a very great shame that controllers are not taught to fly at least to the standard of having to plan and execute a cross country through Controlled airspace. This wouldn't have to be solo, but could be carried out with an instructor just there as safety, with the controller doing all the flying, navigating (no GPS) and RT as handling pilot. After all, all controllers talk to pilots, but it doesn't have to be the other way round.
