Bigger airports kicking out General Aviation!
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Bigger airports kicking out General Aviation!
I am beginning to notice that lots of growing airports like Leeds Bradford, Liverpool, Doncaster, Bristol, etc, are starting to expand in such a way that it is making it harder and more EXPENSIVE for general aviation pilots to get into them.
I am a PPL currently building hours to start moving up the ladder, and love being around a true airport environment.
However, my home airport Leeds Bradford, seems to be GA unfriendly, closing down rwy 09/27 which was perfect because at LBA the wind is usually from the west, but no we have to use the main 14/32 which is often above the X/W limit. Also, the costs are going up and they aint to interested in helping you.
Airports like doncaster, liverpool, bristol, inverness etc etc, and starting to move that way too.
I would appreciate all comments on this.
I am a PPL currently building hours to start moving up the ladder, and love being around a true airport environment.
However, my home airport Leeds Bradford, seems to be GA unfriendly, closing down rwy 09/27 which was perfect because at LBA the wind is usually from the west, but no we have to use the main 14/32 which is often above the X/W limit. Also, the costs are going up and they aint to interested in helping you.
Airports like doncaster, liverpool, bristol, inverness etc etc, and starting to move that way too.
I would appreciate all comments on this.
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Busy Controllers also find, even well intentioned, GA Drivers a pain in the bum. Slow moving and verbose (particularly fast of lip) is not a recipe for a stress free day.
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Yes well the airport managers of these over-inflated ego driven little domestic airports (if they qualify as airports?) are the biggest problem. Absolutely no idea how insignificant they are in the world of BIG aviation or how much of a wart on the butt of REAL aviation (GA) they really are. Infact, these prats need a good hard kick in the ........ds..
GRRR....
GRRR....
Last edited by JackOffallTrades; 11th Jan 2007 at 01:27.
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The key is how these places identify themsleves.
You don't hear about Heathrow International Airport, Gatwick International Airport, Luton International Airport or Stanstead International Airport.
However, you do hear about Birmingham International Airport, Blackpool International Airport, Bristol International Airport, Bournemouth International Airport, Cardiff International Airport, Exeter International Airport, Leeds-Bradford International Airport, Liverpool International Airport, Newcastle International Airport and Norwich International Airport.
Any Airport which identifies itself as an International Airport is clearly suffering from an inferiority complex. As such, these places should be avoided by GA pilots as they will charge you too much money in terms of landing, parking and handling fees.
You don't hear about Heathrow International Airport, Gatwick International Airport, Luton International Airport or Stanstead International Airport.
However, you do hear about Birmingham International Airport, Blackpool International Airport, Bristol International Airport, Bournemouth International Airport, Cardiff International Airport, Exeter International Airport, Leeds-Bradford International Airport, Liverpool International Airport, Newcastle International Airport and Norwich International Airport.
Any Airport which identifies itself as an International Airport is clearly suffering from an inferiority complex. As such, these places should be avoided by GA pilots as they will charge you too much money in terms of landing, parking and handling fees.
Last edited by False Capture; 11th Jan 2007 at 12:56. Reason: Edited to remove Manchester from the list of second-rate airports.
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Indeed,
Many of the "International Airports" listed here, thank you False Capture, would not even qualify as suitable emergency alternates for my B777. Nor would I ever want to visit them in my spare time flying a Piper Cub or Chipmunk.
Quite frankly I think the management of these airfields need to review
their business plan if they ever want to attract anyone other than start up outfits in RJs or Ryanair cheapskates.
Many of the "International Airports" listed here, thank you False Capture, would not even qualify as suitable emergency alternates for my B777. Nor would I ever want to visit them in my spare time flying a Piper Cub or Chipmunk.
Quite frankly I think the management of these airfields need to review
their business plan if they ever want to attract anyone other than start up outfits in RJs or Ryanair cheapskates.
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The annoying thing is that 10 years ago, before the onset of the Lo-Cos, these airports were MORE than happy to host us and let us visit. This is the bit that sticks more than anything. A case of playground "rules", yes I will play with you until someone with a bigger packet of sweets appears.
All that said, as opposed to most of the aforementioned airfields, Manchester IS an International airport and is not struggling for an identiity, it always has been a leading light in the regional airport business, even if there are problems but that is for another forum! As GA we can still visit today. I think the landing / handling fees are about £30 or £35 through MSF, which although more than a tenner at say Sandtoft, is not bad value when you get the opportunity to put it in your log book, and have the attractions like Concorde on site and get to enjoy all the same "aids" as the bus drivers. The ATC guys are in the main "old school" and will help you where they can as long as you aren't a total muppet!
Might not be a destination of regular choice, but there are challenges in flying there and for a "different" place to go it has to be worth a try now and again!
All that said, as opposed to most of the aforementioned airfields, Manchester IS an International airport and is not struggling for an identiity, it always has been a leading light in the regional airport business, even if there are problems but that is for another forum! As GA we can still visit today. I think the landing / handling fees are about £30 or £35 through MSF, which although more than a tenner at say Sandtoft, is not bad value when you get the opportunity to put it in your log book, and have the attractions like Concorde on site and get to enjoy all the same "aids" as the bus drivers. The ATC guys are in the main "old school" and will help you where they can as long as you aren't a total muppet!
Might not be a destination of regular choice, but there are challenges in flying there and for a "different" place to go it has to be worth a try now and again!
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GBZ, with an attitude like that then I think you might wish to consider another vocation, if you are a controller. Slow moving, verbose GA pilots are a fact of lile, like it or not, and they have just as much right to fly as the full time professionals.
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Same story at Blackpool International. They are going to close 07/25 and 13/31, so that they can build a parallel taxiway to 10/28, to get the jets off it quicker. This winter has seen long periods of strong southerly winds, so if that plan had already been implemented, flying club renters and student pilots would have been grounded on many days.
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I would dare to suggest that you need to take a pragmatic and realistic look at the situation before getting all emotional.
Smallish regional airports for example = not a lot of ramp space = use the concrete that they do have to cater for the revenue-making commercial traffic = bye bye unneeded runways.
GA does not pay it's way when compared to commercial in a scenario where it has to be one or the other (limited staff / facilities / space etc etc). As a profit making company, what do you expect them to do?
It is not "nice" it may seem unfair and it is not friendly but it makes cash sense.
The bottom line = Max PROFIT for min cost!
Now as for the GA can pay for facilities that it does not need question - Mode S as an example = there is a whole new argument
Smallish regional airports for example = not a lot of ramp space = use the concrete that they do have to cater for the revenue-making commercial traffic = bye bye unneeded runways.
GA does not pay it's way when compared to commercial in a scenario where it has to be one or the other (limited staff / facilities / space etc etc). As a profit making company, what do you expect them to do?
It is not "nice" it may seem unfair and it is not friendly but it makes cash sense.
The bottom line = Max PROFIT for min cost!
Now as for the GA can pay for facilities that it does not need question - Mode S as an example = there is a whole new argument
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As regrads landing/handling fees at Manchester International, my recollection is that I paid someting like £72 last summer for an AA5, so rather more than the £30ish suggested by the earlier poster. And I was warned that departure in the "busy period" (after 4pm) would push it up to the £200 range!
That apart, ATC were absolutely brill - it was my first visit and I felt well prepared - but they were great on both arrival and departure. Helpfull, friendly, efficient.
Would I go again? Only if there were compelling business/family reasons - and certainly not in the busy periods!
That apart, ATC were absolutely brill - it was my first visit and I felt well prepared - but they were great on both arrival and departure. Helpfull, friendly, efficient.
Would I go again? Only if there were compelling business/family reasons - and certainly not in the busy periods!
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Why shouldn't GA open an aerodrome next door to an exisitng regional for example? Any objection by the existing airport could be referred to the monopolies commission as anti-competitive to GA.
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Single Spey, it would be a great idea, I too would love to see it happen. But that's in an ideal world.
Fact is is it would never happen, NIMBYism and Eco-Nazis would see to that.
A shame, really.
Fact is is it would never happen, NIMBYism and Eco-Nazis would see to that.
A shame, really.
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Manchester Airport part of the Manchester Airport Group
False Capture - Although I agree with the sentiment of your arguement I think missing the fact that Ringway changed its style of name last century slightly undermines you.
Also, when John (Air Race Ace) Spooner was in charge the decline was tempo reversed. Hell, he even had a fly-in!
Back to the thread.
The CAA Strategic Review of GA did point this out and it will be interesting to see if HM Govt does anything about it.
Sir George Cayley
Also, when John (Air Race Ace) Spooner was in charge the decline was tempo reversed. Hell, he even had a fly-in!
Back to the thread.
The CAA Strategic Review of GA did point this out and it will be interesting to see if HM Govt does anything about it.
Sir George Cayley
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Sorry Manchester
Sir George Cayley and Cessna L plate,
Including Manchester Airport in that list of airports was an error, I meant to include Blackpool International Airport instead.
I have edited my earlier post.
Including Manchester Airport in that list of airports was an error, I meant to include Blackpool International Airport instead.
I have edited my earlier post.
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It annoys me, because, I fly light aircraft at the moment, but that is to build hours to move up the ladder, and I love a challenge and an experience.
So, flying into big airports is brilliant for me, but just not worth it in terms of cost, the only reason I fly out of Leeds Bradford is because its the easiest airport to get to. I love flying through other people airspace because it makes it a challenge for me, and increases my work load constanty talking to ATC, which is all good practice for me.
So, flying into big airports is brilliant for me, but just not worth it in terms of cost, the only reason I fly out of Leeds Bradford is because its the easiest airport to get to. I love flying through other people airspace because it makes it a challenge for me, and increases my work load constanty talking to ATC, which is all good practice for me.
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No problems there at all.