Fleet grounded at 7kts??
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Oh yes… no problem. I’ve landed on one wheel, having had the others shot off, in a 200kt, 90 degree crosswind on top of a Tsunami wave, avoiding the gaping crack of a huge earthquake to the left and wake vortex from the Space Shuttle on the right………………………………in a Tomahawk.............with asymetric flap………......Twice that day!
If you tell studes today that........they'll never believe you
Incredibly handsome
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straight up and thats a fact!
However .... I know someone who can beat that claim ..... where are you Ferryair .? come in ...Ferryair......Ferryair?
Last edited by flyingphil1; 3rd Jan 2007 at 15:03. Reason: forgot right name ..
The Original Whirly
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matelot asked:
"Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is?"
And muffin replied:
"Yes they do. Actually you always try to land and take off into wind which is normally easy. However, if the site restricts you it is quite possible to do so out of wind but you have to be careful as it is trickier. The crosswind limit is actually determined by the amount of cyclic authority available, as you obviously have to be stationary as you let it down on to the ground. If you don't have enough sideways cyclic control available to hold it in one place as you touch down, then you have to turn into wind where the control range availability is much greater."
You also have to consider the effects of the wind on the tail rotor. If you're landing with a crosswind from the left, you can get "tail rotor breakaway", which roughly means the tail rotor stops working properly, so that the pedals won't keep you straight! I always thought this was LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness), but I've recently been told the two phenomena are slightly different...for those who understand about this or care. The R22 doesn't seem to suffer from this much, and I've never experienced it. But I've been told that it can definitely be a problem in other helicopters. So yes, as Muffin said, you always try to land into wind. However, you can make your approach crosswind, and then turn into wind as you come to a hover...which you can't do with f/w really!
You also need to be careful starting up in a strong crosswind, as you can get blade sailing and chop off your tail! The direction the helicopter is facing and the way the rotor blades turn makes a difference as to whether this happens, but if I think about that too much my head hurts.
Anyway, to avoid all these nasty unpleasantnesses, and having to work out the likelihood of them occurring, we hover-lovers take off and land into wind if we can.
And why not? After all, we don't need runways.
"Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is?"
And muffin replied:
"Yes they do. Actually you always try to land and take off into wind which is normally easy. However, if the site restricts you it is quite possible to do so out of wind but you have to be careful as it is trickier. The crosswind limit is actually determined by the amount of cyclic authority available, as you obviously have to be stationary as you let it down on to the ground. If you don't have enough sideways cyclic control available to hold it in one place as you touch down, then you have to turn into wind where the control range availability is much greater."
You also have to consider the effects of the wind on the tail rotor. If you're landing with a crosswind from the left, you can get "tail rotor breakaway", which roughly means the tail rotor stops working properly, so that the pedals won't keep you straight! I always thought this was LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness), but I've recently been told the two phenomena are slightly different...for those who understand about this or care. The R22 doesn't seem to suffer from this much, and I've never experienced it. But I've been told that it can definitely be a problem in other helicopters. So yes, as Muffin said, you always try to land into wind. However, you can make your approach crosswind, and then turn into wind as you come to a hover...which you can't do with f/w really!
You also need to be careful starting up in a strong crosswind, as you can get blade sailing and chop off your tail! The direction the helicopter is facing and the way the rotor blades turn makes a difference as to whether this happens, but if I think about that too much my head hurts.
Anyway, to avoid all these nasty unpleasantnesses, and having to work out the likelihood of them occurring, we hover-lovers take off and land into wind if we can.
And why not? After all, we don't need runways.
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Thread Starter
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Surely we should plan to forecasts, and evaluate the weather in realtime. If the club had said the forecasts show the crosswind component outwith the limits of the aircraft and or yourself during the morning, then thats fair.They shouldn't say no flying until the booking time comes up. Due to the nature of the weather things change! Warning you that its highly unlikely is both good practice and fair.
If you however wait until your booking time and the wind has died to a mere 7knots crosswind component and they are happy to lend you an aircraft with that in mind, one should be able too.
Not hiring because a forecast said it could have been 16 knots is crazy. I had a perfect example last week.
I fly from a private strip in Scotland, wind was forecast 18knots cross wind component at mid-day, decaying to approx 12 by tea time. I thought 'oh bugger' no flying for me and went out to the airfield at 1pm to tidy the hangar. The wind was approx 5 knots across the runway and the trend to decay was still forecast. Incedentally our strip is approx 5miles from a major airport which also had the same wind conditions.
Sounds like some club busy-body taking things too literally. Ie a jobsworth who believes because a forecast is made at 3.30am in the morning it must be abided by all day. . . things change. The chaps in the met office agree and are always on the end of the phone . . . call them and look at your windsock!
If you however wait until your booking time and the wind has died to a mere 7knots crosswind component and they are happy to lend you an aircraft with that in mind, one should be able too.
Not hiring because a forecast said it could have been 16 knots is crazy. I had a perfect example last week.
I fly from a private strip in Scotland, wind was forecast 18knots cross wind component at mid-day, decaying to approx 12 by tea time. I thought 'oh bugger' no flying for me and went out to the airfield at 1pm to tidy the hangar. The wind was approx 5 knots across the runway and the trend to decay was still forecast. Incedentally our strip is approx 5miles from a major airport which also had the same wind conditions.
Sounds like some club busy-body taking things too literally. Ie a jobsworth who believes because a forecast is made at 3.30am in the morning it must be abided by all day. . . things change. The chaps in the met office agree and are always on the end of the phone . . . call them and look at your windsock!
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Regarding max. demonstrated - thats what it is: demonstrated.
Furthermore, for certification the max demonstrated is completed without any corrective action ie. sideslip or otherwise cross control input.
It should thus be an easy task to land an aircraft above the max demonstrated x-wind component.
Furthermore, for certification the max demonstrated is completed without any corrective action ie. sideslip or otherwise cross control input.
It should thus be an easy task to land an aircraft above the max demonstrated x-wind component.
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I have the same problem at EGNM. Even when the weather seems fine and nothing serious on the TAF. They are good with excuses.
Im a PPL so, i hire them out, they dont let us go if the vis is less than 15k, and if the crosswind component is more than 14kt, they get very funny bout it, even though the Robin limit is 18kt.
They are so expensive and find any excuse not to let you go. I haven't flown for 4 weeks now.
I no you have to be safe, but they take the biscuit sometimes, I think if the weather is in safe limits of the aircraft, pilot, and within the qualification of the licence, I don't see a problem.
Im a PPL so, i hire them out, they dont let us go if the vis is less than 15k, and if the crosswind component is more than 14kt, they get very funny bout it, even though the Robin limit is 18kt.
They are so expensive and find any excuse not to let you go. I haven't flown for 4 weeks now.
I no you have to be safe, but they take the biscuit sometimes, I think if the weather is in safe limits of the aircraft, pilot, and within the qualification of the licence, I don't see a problem.
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14kt crosswind is not an unreasonable club imposed limit for low hour pilots, or low currency pilots.
I'll quite happily accept a higher crosswind, but not if I haven't flown in the last month. I find that the ability to deal with strong crosswinds is one of the first skills to be hit by a lack of currency.
Again, 15km viz is not unreasonable for a lower hour/low currency pilot who is navigating by DR in an area that they are not familiar with. Certainly 10km by DR in an unfamiliar area isn't much fun, if you're trying to avoid controlled airspace etc. So 15km gives a reasonable margin for a low hour/currency pilot.
Obviously as a pilots experience and currency improves, they need to be able to remove these restrictions (by proving their ability with an instructor onboad, and maintaining currency), but as a general club rule, I don't think these figures are unreasonable.
dp
I'll quite happily accept a higher crosswind, but not if I haven't flown in the last month. I find that the ability to deal with strong crosswinds is one of the first skills to be hit by a lack of currency.
Again, 15km viz is not unreasonable for a lower hour/low currency pilot who is navigating by DR in an area that they are not familiar with. Certainly 10km by DR in an unfamiliar area isn't much fun, if you're trying to avoid controlled airspace etc. So 15km gives a reasonable margin for a low hour/currency pilot.
Obviously as a pilots experience and currency improves, they need to be able to remove these restrictions (by proving their ability with an instructor onboad, and maintaining currency), but as a general club rule, I don't think these figures are unreasonable.
dp
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Oh come on, I was flying in a 40kt headwind today at 2000ft! Made the old Robin seem a bit sluggish...
The real fun was my best crosswind landing to date - 20kt crosswind, directly across the runway. The Robin has a demonstrated max of 22kt and I can see why. This was also my first wing down landing in anger - I was always taught to crab but to be honest the wing down landing was a fantastic revelation. But at 20kt crosswind I had pretty much full rudder deflection, so I can see why 22kt was the max!
Tim
The real fun was my best crosswind landing to date - 20kt crosswind, directly across the runway. The Robin has a demonstrated max of 22kt and I can see why. This was also my first wing down landing in anger - I was always taught to crab but to be honest the wing down landing was a fantastic revelation. But at 20kt crosswind I had pretty much full rudder deflection, so I can see why 22kt was the max!
Tim
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Landed a few times in 35-40 kts - pretty much straight down the rwy, I hasten to add, however ! Actually, the taxiing is the interesting part in this kind of wx 
Where I learned to fly and where I fly now, quite a bit of wind is pretty much the norm. I find it sad and not very productive, that FTOs don't make use of a benign x-wind situation to teach their students how to handle the a/c. In the real world, you will land in x-wind and it's better to be trained for that than doing the trainig on your, errr, first x-wind landing as PIC.
In any case, all POH's I've ever seen carry a note underneath the 'Max demonstrated crosswind' saying something to the effect 'the above value does not constitute a limitation'.
PS: I have, to agree with some others here that probably the best x-wind a/c I've ever flown is the Robin. Amazing what this thing can handle !
Where I learned to fly and where I fly now, quite a bit of wind is pretty much the norm. I find it sad and not very productive, that FTOs don't make use of a benign x-wind situation to teach their students how to handle the a/c. In the real world, you will land in x-wind and it's better to be trained for that than doing the trainig on your, errr, first x-wind landing as PIC.
In any case, all POH's I've ever seen carry a note underneath the 'Max demonstrated crosswind' saying something to the effect 'the above value does not constitute a limitation'.
PS: I have, to agree with some others here that probably the best x-wind a/c I've ever flown is the Robin. Amazing what this thing can handle !
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Where I fly they'd let me up with a 15kt crosswind according to the rules ... but there's no way I'd take off in that.
(I go flying for fun. That wouldn't be fun, even if I did manage not to bend the aircraft.)
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What has so far been missing from this discussion are the ever-present health and safety and legal retribution considerations that are associated with all businesses these days.
i.e. If the TAF forecasts a wind increase and the student (or whoever) has a crash/incident etc, during the following 'investigation' the authorising instructor and ultimately the school will be in trouble for ignoring it. This will be the case even if the wind at the time of the accident was less than forecast, less than the limits etc etc.
Regardless of the fact that every pilot knows meteorology is about as close to witchcraft you can get without actually buying a broom and a black cat!
Civillian courts, juries and lay people generally still assume its all very predictable, especially as the highly trained 'Met man' says so!
Hence, 'Beware the lawyers' has to be the attitude of the day and so we can expect in aviation as in every other walk of life a continually more conservative attitude to, well, pretty much everything!
We used to say 'If you believe a Met report I can sell you the Brooklyn bridge' these days its more like 'If you dont believe your Met report, you'll wind up swinging in the wind underneath the Brooklyn bridge!'
Regards to all
Xraf
i.e. If the TAF forecasts a wind increase and the student (or whoever) has a crash/incident etc, during the following 'investigation' the authorising instructor and ultimately the school will be in trouble for ignoring it. This will be the case even if the wind at the time of the accident was less than forecast, less than the limits etc etc.
Regardless of the fact that every pilot knows meteorology is about as close to witchcraft you can get without actually buying a broom and a black cat!
Civillian courts, juries and lay people generally still assume its all very predictable, especially as the highly trained 'Met man' says so!Hence, 'Beware the lawyers'
has to be the attitude of the day and so we can expect in aviation as in every other walk of life a continually more conservative attitude to, well, pretty much everything!We used to say 'If you believe a Met report I can sell you the Brooklyn bridge' these days its more like 'If you dont believe your Met report, you'll wind up swinging in the wind underneath the Brooklyn bridge!'
Regards to all
Xraf
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It may sound a bit pedantic but I think you'll find the C152 max demonstrated cross wind limit is 15mph not knots (ie 12kts or so).
It would make for an interesting insurance claim if the TAF/METARs exceeded the max demonstrated limit and an aircraft was damaged - even if it wasn't as a result of the cross wind.
Years ago someone reckoned on another forum the max demonstrated cross wind limit was set on the day of the FAA-observed flight test so could only be as much as the wind was blowing on the day - doh!
It would make for an interesting insurance claim if the TAF/METARs exceeded the max demonstrated limit and an aircraft was damaged - even if it wasn't as a result of the cross wind.
Years ago someone reckoned on another forum the max demonstrated cross wind limit was set on the day of the FAA-observed flight test so could only be as much as the wind was blowing on the day - doh!
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True that it's demonstrated not limiting, though I wonder what a court would say if you had been advised that no test pilot had demonstrated a capability beyond X knots and you exceeded that and damaged the aircraft.
I was taught C152 was 12kts, so that tallies with 15mph quoted above. It's a big issue with my home base - runway 01/19, typical wind 240/10-15: it was fine when runway 06/24 was still open...
Tim
I was taught C152 was 12kts, so that tallies with 15mph quoted above. It's a big issue with my home base - runway 01/19, typical wind 240/10-15: it was fine when runway 06/24 was still open...
Tim
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I had a flight booked at my local flight school. The TAF read 30016kt 9999 FEW031 BECMG 1719 28003. The METAR was 30007KT with the runway being 231 degree's. The school would not fly. I asked why they would not fly as the wind is 7KT's forcast to decrease and they said the wiond direction is dangerous being right across the runway. I couldn't beleive what i was hearing. A C152 has a demonstrated Xwind landing of 15KT's.
I was somewhat bemused as to why they would not fly.
Later checked and the wind went down to 29002KT
I was somewhat bemused as to why they would not fly.
Later checked and the wind went down to 29002KT
XL, you don't make it clear at what stage of the game you are.
Not flying because of that wind and crosswind component does not seem to make a lot of sense as others have said unless you are an early solo pilot who needs to do more solo circuit consolidation.
The new year looks promising, only 5 days old and I am already agreeing with Bose-X, what is the world coming to!
It may also be pedantic but the 152 does not have a crosswind LIMIT it has a demonstarted crosswird component NOT a LIMIT. And my POH says 17 KNOTS..... DEMONSTRATED.
The demonstrated crosswind is exactly that. It ain't a limit, it is nothing legal other than a certification requirement.
At best it is some guidance.
Happy (crosswind) landings.
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True that it's demonstrated not limiting, though I wonder what a court would say if you had been advised that no test pilot had demonstrated a capability beyond X knots and you exceeded that and damaged the aircraft.
I was taught C152 was 12kts, so that tallies with 15mph quoted above. It's a big issue with my home base - runway 01/19, typical wind 240/10-15: it was fine when runway 06/24 was still open...
Tim
I was taught C152 was 12kts, so that tallies with 15mph quoted above. It's a big issue with my home base - runway 01/19, typical wind 240/10-15: it was fine when runway 06/24 was still open...
Tim
There is no crosswind limit on a 152. The demontsrated componed was just what was available to the test pilot on the day. Do you really think they sat and waited for a mega windy day?
If you are current and capable you can put an aircraft down way beyond the "demonstrated" cross wind. When I had my 152 I put it down in 30+ kts straight accross the runway on a regular basis and still had rudder authourity. I still do the same with my 172 as the runway still points the same way.
What a dull life we would lead if always fearfull of the scumbag lawyers! Its not a police state its a laywer state.
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Bose - are you sure you weren't reading your POH for the 172* or a PA28? The demonstrated crosswind component (which Cessna say should not be considered limiting) for a C152 is 12, TWELVE knots NOT 17! 17kts is the limit for a PA28 and 20kts for a DA40.
* I have never seen the POH for, or flown a 172 so cannot give the figure in the POH and don't have access to one to check but I am absolutely certain that it is 12 knots for the C152 having not only read the POH but also recently been chatting to the CFI about it and he has thousands of hours in 152s.
* I have never seen the POH for, or flown a 172 so cannot give the figure in the POH and don't have access to one to check but I am absolutely certain that it is 12 knots for the C152 having not only read the POH but also recently been chatting to the CFI about it and he has thousands of hours in 152s.
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XL, you don't make it clear at what stage of the game you are.
Not flying because of that wind and crosswind component does not seem to make a lot of sense as others have said unless you are an early solo pilot who needs to do more solo circuit consolidation.
The new year looks promising, only 5 days old and I am already agreeing with Bose-X, what is the world coming to!
There are a gazillion threads on crosswinds etc.
The demonstrated crosswind is exactly that. It ain't a limit, it is nothing legal other than a certification requirement.
At best it is some guidance.
Happy (crosswind) landings.
Not flying because of that wind and crosswind component does not seem to make a lot of sense as others have said unless you are an early solo pilot who needs to do more solo circuit consolidation.
The new year looks promising, only 5 days old and I am already agreeing with Bose-X, what is the world coming to!
There are a gazillion threads on crosswinds etc.
The demonstrated crosswind is exactly that. It ain't a limit, it is nothing legal other than a certification requirement.
At best it is some guidance.
Happy (crosswind) landings.
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Bose - are you sure you weren't reading your POH for the 172* or a PA28? The demonstrated crosswind component (which Cessna say should not be considered limiting) for a C152 is 12, TWELVE knots NOT 17! 17kts is the limit for a PA28 and 20kts for a DA40.
* I have never seen the POH for, or flown a 172 so cannot give the figure in the POH and don't have access to one to check but I am absolutely certain that it is 12 knots for the C152 having not only read the POH but also recently been chatting to the CFI about it and he has thousands of hours in 152s.
* I have never seen the POH for, or flown a 172 so cannot give the figure in the POH and don't have access to one to check but I am absolutely certain that it is 12 knots for the C152 having not only read the POH but also recently been chatting to the CFI about it and he has thousands of hours in 152s.