Civvy Circuit Size
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,580
Received 438 Likes
on
231 Posts
Once did that at Dundee on a UAS summer camp, out of Leuchars. We were using the airfield for circuit consolidation as it was a bit tricky fitting in our young students in little Bulldogs with those punchy mates doing 4-ship run and breaks in their F-4s and shiny new F-3s.
Some local pilots were flying crosswind completely across the Tay, into the distance downwind, recrossing the Tay, then onto finals. We were getting three circuits to their two, sometimes four, without cutting them up, by flying the normal oval circuit. ATC were more than happy, in fact they thought it quite amusing. We were potentially safer because if the donk stopped we could make the field all the time except on climb-out.
Some local pilots were flying crosswind completely across the Tay, into the distance downwind, recrossing the Tay, then onto finals. We were getting three circuits to their two, sometimes four, without cutting them up, by flying the normal oval circuit. ATC were more than happy, in fact they thought it quite amusing. We were potentially safer because if the donk stopped we could make the field all the time except on climb-out.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: 300 miles south of EDI
Age: 55
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ShyTorque
Did my Flying Scholarship at Dundee a long time ago and remember flying downwind virtually over the Fife coast and practically in the Leuchars MATZ (as taught by my instructor at the time).
Years later went back to Tayside to work for them as an instructor myself. First time back in the Dundee circuit I flew it twice as tight as I originally had been taught purely through self-preservation! Lots of water, no LSJ...
B52-sized circuits do my nut in. I used to instruct at Trumpton International and certain instructors would fly so widely spaced when downwind that I asked ATC on a few occasions whether or not the other aircraft was actually remaining in the cct or not. It's difficult having done a cct detail or two with a student on a quiet day when you've been able to get him to position to your liking to then go up with them at busier times and see the aircraft in front begin the radar-vectored cross-country nav that is their crosswind leg! Totally throws your student out...
I instruct for the mil now and do prefer the much punchier oval circuit. The snag with adapting it for civvy flying is that it is tricky to fly accurately with a high-wing aircraft. The runway disappears for a large chunk of the finals turn.
SAS! Have fun when the boys get hold of the Pitts! Pity it's a bit far to commute for part-time work!
ST
Did my Flying Scholarship at Dundee a long time ago and remember flying downwind virtually over the Fife coast and practically in the Leuchars MATZ (as taught by my instructor at the time).
Years later went back to Tayside to work for them as an instructor myself. First time back in the Dundee circuit I flew it twice as tight as I originally had been taught purely through self-preservation! Lots of water, no LSJ...
B52-sized circuits do my nut in. I used to instruct at Trumpton International and certain instructors would fly so widely spaced when downwind that I asked ATC on a few occasions whether or not the other aircraft was actually remaining in the cct or not. It's difficult having done a cct detail or two with a student on a quiet day when you've been able to get him to position to your liking to then go up with them at busier times and see the aircraft in front begin the radar-vectored cross-country nav that is their crosswind leg! Totally throws your student out...
I instruct for the mil now and do prefer the much punchier oval circuit. The snag with adapting it for civvy flying is that it is tricky to fly accurately with a high-wing aircraft. The runway disappears for a large chunk of the finals turn.
SAS! Have fun when the boys get hold of the Pitts! Pity it's a bit far to commute for part-time work!
ST
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And totally invisible to the bloke in the low-winged aircraft behind you.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi ST, you're going to have to come and have a go! Hopefully she'll be with us before Christmas. A great present!
A bit too far for everyday stuff, but next time you're up here........
A bit too far for everyday stuff, but next time you're up here........
But, to make a new point, somebody asked how large a circuit should be? Well, how about defining it by time - I'd coin six minutes as the target from take-off to landing.
How about someone actually times some?
And why does the size of the circuit increase proportionally with the size of the runway and the amount of class D airspace around it? I\'ve SERIOUSLY thought some people are off on a cross-country. The number of circuits/hour must be abysmal!
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Oop North, UK
Posts: 3,076
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last time I had to do 3 landings for currency it was 15 mins brakes off to brakes on again (it helped that the aircraft had just flown so did not need a long engine warm up time).
Well there are two issues there, one is the time, the other is the principle.
I'm more interested in the principle than the actual time, the British record for the time to fly 100 circuits I think worked out at 40 seconds a go! So, let's say 4 minutes, whatever.
G
I'm more interested in the principle than the actual time, the British record for the time to fly 100 circuits I think worked out at 40 seconds a go! So, let's say 4 minutes, whatever.
G
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OH dear ! dumming down
For fun I am lucky enough to teach at an airfield that has an oval "military" style CCT at 800ft the student quckly learns to fly the aircraft in a co-ordinated way with a stable rate of descent, turn and airspeed, despite the approach not being a long five mile final at one speed the approach is "stable".
For my day job I fly an airliner and an becoming increasingly concerned that the new pilots fresh out of the best traning establishments are no more than button pushers that I cant trust to land the aircraft on all but the least challenging Greek airports and never off a visual approach.
I cant help thnking that the lack of hand flying skill that is now becoming the norm in the airlines is a direct result of the early days in the CCT.
For my day job I fly an airliner and an becoming increasingly concerned that the new pilots fresh out of the best traning establishments are no more than button pushers that I cant trust to land the aircraft on all but the least challenging Greek airports and never off a visual approach.
I cant help thnking that the lack of hand flying skill that is now becoming the norm in the airlines is a direct result of the early days in the CCT.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DubTrub .. .. ..
me thinks whilst in the circuit you ARE in the process of landing the infernal flying machine, unless of course you subscribe to the circuit being the cross country expedition some do
me thinks whilst in the circuit you ARE in the process of landing the infernal flying machine, unless of course you subscribe to the circuit being the cross country expedition some do
Guest
Posts: n/a
100 circuits I think worked out at 40 seconds a go!
Fuji that's a good point, somewhat in my thinking, and no, I do not advocate the cross-country circuit. But in the permit rules, what is the definition of "in the process of taking off and landing"? It has never been tested in court.
How willing is Fuji to stand up and say that downwind, several gliding-distances away from a safe landing, that you are "in the process" to land? I venture to suggest that if you are above 500 feet, a jury would not agree, but then I am not a juror. I might, however, be willing to be invited to jurisdict over a case of a pilot "endangering" by flying outside their aircraft's limitations by being so distanced. Just my opinion.
One of the reasons I go to the smaller airstrips (eh, Mono?) and to the smaller airfields like Popham is that they suit my kind of flying better than other airfields of grander stature.
I guess even as pilots, we have a certain choice; so if particular pilots like particularly large circuits, they can visit airfields that advocate so. I choose not to visit such airfields. I unreservedly retract any adverse comment previously posted about circuit size, since I have a choice not to visit there, but I retain my opinion on circuit shape (and apologies for the thread drift).
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where I fly from, the circuit size is very dependant on how many others are flying and who they are. On a sunny Sunday you can expect to fly to the next county before turning onto base (and have to adher to ATC's wishes or a rollocking).
[RANT ON]
However, on my recent night qualification I asked for a backtrack (for a full stop landing and next take off) when I was issued my take off clearance and was told call final and basically we will see. As I rotated the guy behind me was also given clearance for circuits, but not one to be bullied I flew the normal circuit I prefer when I am number 1 to land.
I landed, backtracked, taxied to the hold (he wouldn't give me backtrack then immediate) and then declared myself ready. Number 2 was just turning (long) final; by the time he landed I was at 500'.
Why oh why oh why do people take away the safety net of being able to glide to a perfectly good runway? Especially at night? Do they really believe it will never happen to them? Why should I be forced to expose myself to additional risk on those days when bomber circuits are being flown?
I realise we were all students once, but I remember well my instructor cursing at those disappearing into the distance when we were trying to get a practise glide approach in, yet because we had been given number 3 to land couldn't cut in. I was also taught to fly with the runway 3/4 of the way down the wing so we could always get in should the engine fail.
[RANT OVER]
[RANT ON]
However, on my recent night qualification I asked for a backtrack (for a full stop landing and next take off) when I was issued my take off clearance and was told call final and basically we will see. As I rotated the guy behind me was also given clearance for circuits, but not one to be bullied I flew the normal circuit I prefer when I am number 1 to land.
I landed, backtracked, taxied to the hold (he wouldn't give me backtrack then immediate) and then declared myself ready. Number 2 was just turning (long) final; by the time he landed I was at 500'.
Why oh why oh why do people take away the safety net of being able to glide to a perfectly good runway? Especially at night? Do they really believe it will never happen to them? Why should I be forced to expose myself to additional risk on those days when bomber circuits are being flown?
I realise we were all students once, but I remember well my instructor cursing at those disappearing into the distance when we were trying to get a practise glide approach in, yet because we had been given number 3 to land couldn't cut in. I was also taught to fly with the runway 3/4 of the way down the wing so we could always get in should the engine fail.
[RANT OVER]
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,580
Received 438 Likes
on
231 Posts
"Why oh why oh why do people take away the safety net of being able to glide to a perfectly good runway? Especially at night? Do they really believe it will never happen to them? Why should I be forced to expose myself to additional risk on those days when bomber circuits are being flown?"
But IF you turn a base leg in the normal position without descending, cross to the deadside then go crosswind and subsequently downwind you DON'T expose yourself to the same risk of his/her bomber circuit. If you need to extend for spacing, do it upwind not downwind and announce it on the R/T. This has the advantage of breaking the chain of subsequent long downwind legs by aircraft following and YOU should still be able to reach the airfield power off.
But IF you turn a base leg in the normal position without descending, cross to the deadside then go crosswind and subsequently downwind you DON'T expose yourself to the same risk of his/her bomber circuit. If you need to extend for spacing, do it upwind not downwind and announce it on the R/T. This has the advantage of breaking the chain of subsequent long downwind legs by aircraft following and YOU should still be able to reach the airfield power off.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DubTrub
"How willing is Fuji to stand up and say that downwind, several gliding-distances away from a safe landing, that you are "in the process" to land?"
Not quite what I said. My point was that I agreed with you that if the activity within the circuit forced you to fly wide so that you would be unable to land on the runway in the event of an engine failure I could understand your holding off until the circuit became less busy.
My point was as long as you remian within glide distance of the runway I dont see it matters one jot what you are actually flying over at the time.
I would be quite willing to argue that whilst you are in the circuit you are in the process of landing. Why else would you be in a circuit. The sole purpose of a circuit is to enable aircraft to visually space themselves for landing and control their approach onto final.
"How willing is Fuji to stand up and say that downwind, several gliding-distances away from a safe landing, that you are "in the process" to land?"
Not quite what I said. My point was that I agreed with you that if the activity within the circuit forced you to fly wide so that you would be unable to land on the runway in the event of an engine failure I could understand your holding off until the circuit became less busy.
My point was as long as you remian within glide distance of the runway I dont see it matters one jot what you are actually flying over at the time.
I would be quite willing to argue that whilst you are in the circuit you are in the process of landing. Why else would you be in a circuit. The sole purpose of a circuit is to enable aircraft to visually space themselves for landing and control their approach onto final.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A and C, there are many reasons why hand flying skills aren't what they were in cadets. A lack of aero's training for a start.
A different debate to the one here, but putting some 200 hr spod into the righthand seat of a jet, they are going to learn to be reliant on the automatics from day one, they haven't had the chance to practice their hand flying skills and they certainly won't get that chance whilst in the average Airbus or Boeing.
Do like the rest of us and bounce around in a manky old turbo prop to start with, you'll learn hand flying skills then as you don't have an auto pilot! Worked alright for me! (I think!!)
A different debate to the one here, but putting some 200 hr spod into the righthand seat of a jet, they are going to learn to be reliant on the automatics from day one, they haven't had the chance to practice their hand flying skills and they certainly won't get that chance whilst in the average Airbus or Boeing.
Do like the rest of us and bounce around in a manky old turbo prop to start with, you'll learn hand flying skills then as you don't have an auto pilot! Worked alright for me! (I think!!)
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aren't large circuits simply born out of the instructor giving the student a bit more space and therfore time to sort it all out, especially when reconfiguring on base before slicing through the extended centreline.Some people then just don't get shown how to make the circuits smaller once they get it.
People do seem to fit into the pattern of the field. Fields like Rochester usually fly nice tidy tight circuits and Biggin always seem to have monster circuits. Gliding sites like to do thier circuits within the field boundary.
I learned at Civvy club on an RAF field. It was not uncommon to go from being number 1 in a square circuit to number 4 as the three bulldogs behind you all cut in on their constant aspect approach and I never once had to go around. Their approaches certainly took less time.
People do seem to fit into the pattern of the field. Fields like Rochester usually fly nice tidy tight circuits and Biggin always seem to have monster circuits. Gliding sites like to do thier circuits within the field boundary.
I learned at Civvy club on an RAF field. It was not uncommon to go from being number 1 in a square circuit to number 4 as the three bulldogs behind you all cut in on their constant aspect approach and I never once had to go around. Their approaches certainly took less time.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Age: 61
Posts: 1,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One reason for big circuits: fill a C152 or Katana with fuel, two decent sized blokes (checking that you are within weight and balance limits. Of course. Cough), take off, labour up to 500 ft, turn left and struggle up another 500 ft. Then see where you are 
.
.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DB6, what's wrong with turning downwind before you reach 1000'?
I teach my students the "picture" of when to turn downwind - i.e. when the tailplane just starts to cross the runway extended centre-line. I then show them how this picture only works in level flight, and that if it is necessary to turn downwind before reaching 1000' (whether for the reason you give, or an early turn onto cross-wind, or a strong wind from the dead side, or any other reason) there is a different picture to be learnt, with the tail-plane a little past the extended centre-line. Doesn't seem to cause too much confusion for my students.....
FFF
----------------
I teach my students the "picture" of when to turn downwind - i.e. when the tailplane just starts to cross the runway extended centre-line. I then show them how this picture only works in level flight, and that if it is necessary to turn downwind before reaching 1000' (whether for the reason you give, or an early turn onto cross-wind, or a strong wind from the dead side, or any other reason) there is a different picture to be learnt, with the tail-plane a little past the extended centre-line. Doesn't seem to cause too much confusion for my students.....
FFF
----------------