Civvy Circuit Size
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I fly nice tight ovals,spitfire style curving downwind to final.Looks nice,feels nice and get round quicker.
I'm still waiting for a sensible definition of the right circuit dimensions that works for the variety of aircraft commonly found in a typical GA circuit. 2D got the closest I've seen to that in his blog, but even so it seemed to focus on a light single at a particular airport.
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And totally invisible to the bloke in the low-winged aircraft behind you.
I think that the vast majority of experienced PPL's landing at a regular field with a published pattern would rather have standard overhead re-joins without ATC involvement and simply sort themselves out in the pattern as joining traffic call out positions bearing in mind that there may always be non radio traffic - of course.
From personal preference I would much rather gide in from the overhead in a big descending curved approach than get stuck in an ATC controlled circuit taking in half of the next County! Unfortunately, I think A/G & ATC tend to unintentionally create large unwieldy circuits.
Avoid imitations
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Say again slowly,
Sorry to diasgree with your theory but in the UK military circuits of aircraft small enough to fit inside an ATZ are oval irrespective of the aircraft type. I spent well over ten years teaching 'em and flying single jet aircraft, SEPs and Helis.
A few weeks ago a colleague of mine was telephoned by an angry FI of a local airfield. He claimed my colleague should have given way to his C152 because he was "in the circuit". Turned out he was flying bomber command sized circuits and therefore outside the ATZ at the end of downwind. As our company aircraft was on his right and outside the ATZ, the FI was in fact responsible for giving way, but his attention was off to the left with his student and the airfield.
Think about that.....
Sorry to diasgree with your theory but in the UK military circuits of aircraft small enough to fit inside an ATZ are oval irrespective of the aircraft type. I spent well over ten years teaching 'em and flying single jet aircraft, SEPs and Helis.
A few weeks ago a colleague of mine was telephoned by an angry FI of a local airfield. He claimed my colleague should have given way to his C152 because he was "in the circuit". Turned out he was flying bomber command sized circuits and therefore outside the ATZ at the end of downwind. As our company aircraft was on his right and outside the ATZ, the FI was in fact responsible for giving way, but his attention was off to the left with his student and the airfield.
Think about that.....
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That's how the military do it, but it doesn't mean it suits all operations!
The civvy world already has a convention, that of the standard circuit pattern as descibed earlier. The military have their own.
I come from the perspective of someone who teaches the civvy method, but personally flies a constant angle if conditions and traffic permits. Having done this in all manner of machines from a 73 where it was just for fun to the Extra (and soon to be Pitts) where it was a necessity.
No matter what the shape of the circuit, the discussion here is about the size of them that some idiots teach.
Personally we put the stripe helpfully provided on the wing as spacing (PA28, PA38) over the runway or just eyeball it with high wing a/c. It's not rocket science!
We then tramp along downwind until the runway is 45 deg over the shoulder (allowing for drift) and then turn base.
Is that what people want?
The civvy world already has a convention, that of the standard circuit pattern as descibed earlier. The military have their own.
I come from the perspective of someone who teaches the civvy method, but personally flies a constant angle if conditions and traffic permits. Having done this in all manner of machines from a 73 where it was just for fun to the Extra (and soon to be Pitts) where it was a necessity.
No matter what the shape of the circuit, the discussion here is about the size of them that some idiots teach.
Personally we put the stripe helpfully provided on the wing as spacing (PA28, PA38) over the runway or just eyeball it with high wing a/c. It's not rocket science!
We then tramp along downwind until the runway is 45 deg over the shoulder (allowing for drift) and then turn base.
Is that what people want?
Avoid imitations
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Sorry Sayagainslowly,
However, it was YOUR own comment on circuit shape that I responded to.
The military also strongly discourage extending the downwind leg. As for orbitting in the circuit - as ordered by ATC at some airfields - that is very much frowned upon. The policy is that IF you are too close to the aircraft ahead you must go around on the dead side and try again. At RAF training stations this was (probably still is) enforced by a Duty Instructor in the tower - if you transgressed you could expect to pay him a visit on landing for a telling off.
I do occasionally fly SEP from my local minor airfield and have often seen pilots who seem totally incapable of planning circuit spacing and how to fit into existing circuit traffic, especially from the overhead join.
The existing culture in this neck of the woods seems to be that if you mess up your spacing - you can extend downwind - instead of crossing to the deadside in the correct place and going around. The next pilot behind that aircraft then usually does the same and this is exactly how aircraft end up outside the ATZ!
However, it was YOUR own comment on circuit shape that I responded to.
The military also strongly discourage extending the downwind leg. As for orbitting in the circuit - as ordered by ATC at some airfields - that is very much frowned upon. The policy is that IF you are too close to the aircraft ahead you must go around on the dead side and try again. At RAF training stations this was (probably still is) enforced by a Duty Instructor in the tower - if you transgressed you could expect to pay him a visit on landing for a telling off.
I do occasionally fly SEP from my local minor airfield and have often seen pilots who seem totally incapable of planning circuit spacing and how to fit into existing circuit traffic, especially from the overhead join.
The existing culture in this neck of the woods seems to be that if you mess up your spacing - you can extend downwind - instead of crossing to the deadside in the correct place and going around. The next pilot behind that aircraft then usually does the same and this is exactly how aircraft end up outside the ATZ!
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Tony,
it's not about what you want, or think is the most fun, it's about what's safest. I agree with the point of this thread that over wide circuits are dangerous (as are over-narrow ones).
It's not difficult to fly the published pattern and people who don't should be punched in the nose. As pointed out in another thread, most mid-airs occur in the circuit. If you want to pretend you've just returned from a sortie giving Jerry what for, then marry a farmer and land on his potatoes.
it's not about what you want, or think is the most fun, it's about what's safest. I agree with the point of this thread that over wide circuits are dangerous (as are over-narrow ones).
It's not difficult to fly the published pattern and people who don't should be punched in the nose. As pointed out in another thread, most mid-airs occur in the circuit. If you want to pretend you've just returned from a sortie giving Jerry what for, then marry a farmer and land on his potatoes.
"It's not difficult to fly the published pattern"
You should not be flying a published pattern but flying a circuit based on the performance of your aircraft.
Half the trouble with the NIMBYS is that they have been shown a "published patern" by the aerodrome operator and then castigate every aircraft that does not follow it precisely. If we fly a wingspan out from the runway, the patern depends on how long the wings are etc.
You should not be flying a published pattern but flying a circuit based on the performance of your aircraft.
Half the trouble with the NIMBYS is that they have been shown a "published patern" by the aerodrome operator and then castigate every aircraft that does not follow it precisely. If we fly a wingspan out from the runway, the patern depends on how long the wings are etc.
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Most a/c should have no difficulty flying any published pattern if flown correctly. If they can't, then they should inform air traffic of their problem.
We are talking here about the average spam can, it doesn't matter if it's a Cessna, Piper or even a Katana, they can all fly the same size circuit. It's not usually the a/c's fault if someone can't fly it correctly!
We are talking here about the average spam can, it doesn't matter if it's a Cessna, Piper or even a Katana, they can all fly the same size circuit. It's not usually the a/c's fault if someone can't fly it correctly!
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In addition to the comments already made I have two pet hates.
Firstly, why cant pilots give accurate circuit position reports? What is wrong with “early” or “late” downwind without having to search for someone along the length of the downwind leg? “Downwind turning base” or “base turning final” come to mind as other examples. It might not be standard phraseology but you certainly know where to look.
Secondly, why do some pilots insist on parallelling a circuit leg when departing the field? How many times have you been downwind to see another aircraft wide of and parallelling you at circuit height - is he or isn’t he in the circuit?? It cant be that hard to fly at an obtuse angle to the “parallel” circuit leg even if that means a slight correction once well clear of the ATZ - can it?
Finally, I am a passionate believer in tight circuits BUT circuits are like clothes - they need to suite different occasions. Some smart arse flying a tight circuit is not what we are looking for when there is 10 in on a sunny April day and there are a few dusting off the cobwebs not having flown all winter, a couple of students and the odd new PPLer. It might not be ideal but it is safer and more “gentlemanly” to adapt the circuit to suite the circumstances.
Firstly, why cant pilots give accurate circuit position reports? What is wrong with “early” or “late” downwind without having to search for someone along the length of the downwind leg? “Downwind turning base” or “base turning final” come to mind as other examples. It might not be standard phraseology but you certainly know where to look.
Secondly, why do some pilots insist on parallelling a circuit leg when departing the field? How many times have you been downwind to see another aircraft wide of and parallelling you at circuit height - is he or isn’t he in the circuit?? It cant be that hard to fly at an obtuse angle to the “parallel” circuit leg even if that means a slight correction once well clear of the ATZ - can it?
Finally, I am a passionate believer in tight circuits BUT circuits are like clothes - they need to suite different occasions. Some smart arse flying a tight circuit is not what we are looking for when there is 10 in on a sunny April day and there are a few dusting off the cobwebs not having flown all winter, a couple of students and the odd new PPLer. It might not be ideal but it is safer and more “gentlemanly” to adapt the circuit to suite the circumstances.
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Where I fly there is a particular well known school that seems to demand it's students set up for final 3 -4 miles out. This screws up the circuit for everyone else, and leads to unnecessary orbiting or go-arounds.
I'm led to believe this is because they are all ATPL students, and are therefore taught about stabilising the approach, decision heights, and everything else that is more appropriate to a 737 than a DA20.
When I was learning, I thought the reason for doing circuits was to improve the landings - going at a weekend meant I could get 8 - 10 touch and go's per hour, during the week, when above school was operating, this could be reduced to as little as 4!
I understand why they do it, but it's bloody infuriating, and half the time you have to give prioirty to circuit traffic "ahead" of you that is outside the ATZ! I was taught first turn at 500 agl, then 45 degrees over my shoulder for each of the remaining turns, (with the exception of final obviously) seems to work for most people where I am!
I'm led to believe this is because they are all ATPL students, and are therefore taught about stabilising the approach, decision heights, and everything else that is more appropriate to a 737 than a DA20.
When I was learning, I thought the reason for doing circuits was to improve the landings - going at a weekend meant I could get 8 - 10 touch and go's per hour, during the week, when above school was operating, this could be reduced to as little as 4!
I understand why they do it, but it's bloody infuriating, and half the time you have to give prioirty to circuit traffic "ahead" of you that is outside the ATZ! I was taught first turn at 500 agl, then 45 degrees over my shoulder for each of the remaining turns, (with the exception of final obviously) seems to work for most people where I am!
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It's not just students under instruction. At Barton many experienced PPLs fly bomber circuits. It makes me cringe as I follow them downwind for the 27s, way past the M60, on out over the rooftops of Eccles, almost to Salford before they turn base, then dragging it in with power down a 2-mile (or more!) final. There is nowhere to go if the engine fails - why do they do it? Don't they THINK!!! about what they are doing??
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dwshimoda,
Sounds like the same school from where I train, but they only do PPL here. Nothing to do with ATPLs, what I think it is, is the predominance of AA5s they use. Probably the most appealing four seat tourer I've flown, but seemingly totally useless as trainers judging from the number of PIOs, grounded props and a/c retrieved from the trees at the far side of the runway compared to the other school based there who use a mixture of PA28s, PA38s and 152s.
Sounds like the same school from where I train, but they only do PPL here. Nothing to do with ATPLs, what I think it is, is the predominance of AA5s they use. Probably the most appealing four seat tourer I've flown, but seemingly totally useless as trainers judging from the number of PIOs, grounded props and a/c retrieved from the trees at the far side of the runway compared to the other school based there who use a mixture of PA28s, PA38s and 152s.
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I'm with the small cct brigade and was taught the 2d model when I learned. Had a classic at Kemble a few weeks back. Downwind for 13 on a windy day and no. 2 in the cct I was desperately searching for no 1 who turned out (when I eventually spotted him/her) to be 3 or 4 miles out on final!!! Being a gent I extended down wind and followed and happily there was no-one behind me!
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over the rooftops of Eccles
So in the circuit I fly over open areas, and make no apologies for so doing. Or I disappear off if the circuit is busy.
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"So in the circuit I fly over open areas, and make no apologies for so doing."
Why?
Surely you should fly a tight enough circuit to land on the airfield at any time - what you are over really doesnt matter.
I can understand that if you are unable to do so because of traffic you might wish to hold off.
Why?
Surely you should fly a tight enough circuit to land on the airfield at any time - what you are over really doesnt matter.
I can understand that if you are unable to do so because of traffic you might wish to hold off.
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Having read all the above discussion, I'm still at a loss to understand why the CAA advocate a square circuit for light aircraft. While I realise that it is the status quo and would conform to such a pattern in a busy circuit at a civil airfield, I cannot see it's advantages over a military oval pattern. The downwind leg really needs only to be long enough to complete pre-landing checks and ensure that you know the position of other circuit traffic, and an oval circuit can accomodate quite a few aircraft if so desired. After the finals turn is completed there is still plenty enough time to stabilise the approach and prepare for landing. In addition, tight oval circuits would ensure that circuit traffic is afforded the full protection of the ATZ. I would therefore argue that the CAA should advocate an oval circuit. They won't of course!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I recently checked out one of my students prior to a solo circuit session. Checkout was very brief since he was perfectly competent. I de-briefed him that his circuits were fine, but he could do with making them a little smaller, and sent him on his merry way.
Half an hour later I had a call from ATC, asking me to have a word with my student when he got back. He was apparently flying his circuits too tight, and had cut up a student from another school on the airport who was flying cross-country circuits.
FFF
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Half an hour later I had a call from ATC, asking me to have a word with my student when he got back. He was apparently flying his circuits too tight, and had cut up a student from another school on the airport who was flying cross-country circuits.
FFF
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I too am a fan of military constant aspect circuits, and certainly prefer them tight.
But, to make a new point, somebody asked how large a circuit should be? Well, how about defining it by time - I'd coin six minutes as the target from take-off to landing. If everybody stages their circuit footprints to meet that then (a) nobody should get cut up, (b) we enlarge the noise footprint to avoid p***ing off the neighbours, and (c) we actually have a standard to use!
Whilst not officially, this is virtually what happens at Popham or Old Sarum where microlights normally fly a tighter circuit, but manage to fit in nicely with the faster traffic outside them.
G
But, to make a new point, somebody asked how large a circuit should be? Well, how about defining it by time - I'd coin six minutes as the target from take-off to landing. If everybody stages their circuit footprints to meet that then (a) nobody should get cut up, (b) we enlarge the noise footprint to avoid p***ing off the neighbours, and (c) we actually have a standard to use!
Whilst not officially, this is virtually what happens at Popham or Old Sarum where microlights normally fly a tighter circuit, but manage to fit in nicely with the faster traffic outside them.
G