Flying to Mull
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Flying to Mull
Hi there, I'm fairly new to posting on Prune but have found all the information on here very helpful. I am a low hour PPL - 70 hours, passed at 45 (was lucky!) and am based at Sherburn. Now due to embark on my longest trip yet.... to Mull! Wondered if anyone has travelled up there from the North of England and which route you selected??
I will be flying one of the club's Warriors and am taking three of my friends and a bit of baggage. Because I will be at full weight (fuel just over half full - est. 3 hours endurance), I have elected to fly myself to Leeds Bradford and pick them up from there. Currently, I have planned up to the DCS then into Prestwick Airport to top up on fuel before heading North to Mull. I am just about to embark on my IMC so am wholly reliant on the weather being fair otherwise I will need to route around the Lake District or cancel it completely!!
Plan to do a bit of island hopping when I'm there so going to make the most of my time up there.....
I guess the reason for typing this thread is to see if anyone has made similar trips, in similar conditions with similar restrictions?? Would appreciate anyone's tips in order to make my first flying weekend the best experience yet!
Thanks!
I will be flying one of the club's Warriors and am taking three of my friends and a bit of baggage. Because I will be at full weight (fuel just over half full - est. 3 hours endurance), I have elected to fly myself to Leeds Bradford and pick them up from there. Currently, I have planned up to the DCS then into Prestwick Airport to top up on fuel before heading North to Mull. I am just about to embark on my IMC so am wholly reliant on the weather being fair otherwise I will need to route around the Lake District or cancel it completely!!
Plan to do a bit of island hopping when I'm there so going to make the most of my time up there.....
I guess the reason for typing this thread is to see if anyone has made similar trips, in similar conditions with similar restrictions?? Would appreciate anyone's tips in order to make my first flying weekend the best experience yet!
Thanks!
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Hi
I'm a local pilot. Mull is in superb condition just now. Leeds-Prestwick-Mull is ideal in good weather conditions. Couple of 'escape routes' for poor weather require local knowledge (Crinan canal/Loch Fyne gets you from west coast south of Oban to open water east of Arran, or vice-versa) and further south to West Loch Tarbert/Tarbert will bring you out at roughly the same place just north of Arran. Or you could follow the west coast all the way to Machrihanish, giving you the option of Gigha.
As a one-time Warrior pilot I'd be extremely careful about take off performance 4-up out of Mull, particularly taking off to the west, where a right turn after departure is advised due to a bit of high ground. If it can be done I'll bet it's with a light fuel load but Avgas, tea and Jammie Dodgers are available at Oban.
If you're looking at a chart and considering places like Colonsay, Coll or Jura, then forget it in a Warrior. Gigha is not as good as Mull, a bit rough but reasonably well maintained, but it's got a substantial part of its length (1/4 to 1/3 perhaps) that is uphill.
There's a Warrior at Glasgow Flying Club that was into Mull just the other day. Maybe those guys will see this post and give you a better idea of what a 4-up Warrior might be like. Or try the club on 0141-889 4565 and ask to speak to a local pilot - Mull is a regular and popular destination for the GFC Warrior.
Good luck and enjoy!
I'm a local pilot. Mull is in superb condition just now. Leeds-Prestwick-Mull is ideal in good weather conditions. Couple of 'escape routes' for poor weather require local knowledge (Crinan canal/Loch Fyne gets you from west coast south of Oban to open water east of Arran, or vice-versa) and further south to West Loch Tarbert/Tarbert will bring you out at roughly the same place just north of Arran. Or you could follow the west coast all the way to Machrihanish, giving you the option of Gigha.
As a one-time Warrior pilot I'd be extremely careful about take off performance 4-up out of Mull, particularly taking off to the west, where a right turn after departure is advised due to a bit of high ground. If it can be done I'll bet it's with a light fuel load but Avgas, tea and Jammie Dodgers are available at Oban.
If you're looking at a chart and considering places like Colonsay, Coll or Jura, then forget it in a Warrior. Gigha is not as good as Mull, a bit rough but reasonably well maintained, but it's got a substantial part of its length (1/4 to 1/3 perhaps) that is uphill.
There's a Warrior at Glasgow Flying Club that was into Mull just the other day. Maybe those guys will see this post and give you a better idea of what a 4-up Warrior might be like. Or try the club on 0141-889 4565 and ask to speak to a local pilot - Mull is a regular and popular destination for the GFC Warrior.
Good luck and enjoy!
I have, and enjoyed it enormously - but the flying is demanding, and few of the airfields have fuel.
You're talking about a heavyweight aeroplane that isn't known for it's short field capabilities, with a pilot who (and you clearly recognise this yourself) isn't all that experienced.
Go for it, but I'd advise against landing at smaller fields like Glenforsa(Mull), Plockton or unsupported fields like Broadford (Skye) and look to long runways and ground facilities - such as Prestwick, North Connell, Stornoway, etc. Basically places with at-least 900m and somebody on a radio.
G
You're talking about a heavyweight aeroplane that isn't known for it's short field capabilities, with a pilot who (and you clearly recognise this yourself) isn't all that experienced.
Go for it, but I'd advise against landing at smaller fields like Glenforsa(Mull), Plockton or unsupported fields like Broadford (Skye) and look to long runways and ground facilities - such as Prestwick, North Connell, Stornoway, etc. Basically places with at-least 900m and somebody on a radio.
G
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Echo Genghis's comments here.
You're looking at landing on a grass strip, with a tricky approach in one direction, and no facilities after a longish, possibly tiring trip.
Far better to plan to Oban, I would suggest, where you've got fuel, more runway and a good welcome and plenty local knowledge.
You can take some local flights from there to look at the other strips, with no pressure to land if you dont like the look of them!
Or continue up to Inverness, Stornoway, Benbecula etc.. All got loads of tarmac for your PA28.
You're looking at landing on a grass strip, with a tricky approach in one direction, and no facilities after a longish, possibly tiring trip.
Far better to plan to Oban, I would suggest, where you've got fuel, more runway and a good welcome and plenty local knowledge.
You can take some local flights from there to look at the other strips, with no pressure to land if you dont like the look of them!
Or continue up to Inverness, Stornoway, Benbecula etc.. All got loads of tarmac for your PA28.
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Dear all,
Thanks very much to all for your very quick responses. I selected Mull for it's outdoors - my other hobby is walking and climbing. Whilst I appreciate that I am relatively inexperienced, I under no circumstances will take any chances, especially with passengers on-board and will continue to take advice both on this website and from fellow members at Sherburn too.
I don't personally have a problem with the planning I have done so far and am confident of getting into Mull. I am and was concerend about taking off with four onboard on the way out of Mull and should've pointed out on my original post that I plan to do two trips from Mull on the return to Oban (1 pass. then the other two) before re-fuelling and returning to Sherburn. I am tied to fly a minimum eight hours (Fri - Sun) so am not bothered about the additional flying hours spent doing this.
Only other island I planned on visiting was Islay (myself, leave the others to climb Ben More!) and a couple of other islands and again to Oban to pick my brother up.... I am Scottish, originally from Paisley!
I would appreciate further feedback, if you have any, afterall, that's why I posted in the first place.
Thanks very much for your advice so far............
Thanks very much to all for your very quick responses. I selected Mull for it's outdoors - my other hobby is walking and climbing. Whilst I appreciate that I am relatively inexperienced, I under no circumstances will take any chances, especially with passengers on-board and will continue to take advice both on this website and from fellow members at Sherburn too.
I don't personally have a problem with the planning I have done so far and am confident of getting into Mull. I am and was concerend about taking off with four onboard on the way out of Mull and should've pointed out on my original post that I plan to do two trips from Mull on the return to Oban (1 pass. then the other two) before re-fuelling and returning to Sherburn. I am tied to fly a minimum eight hours (Fri - Sun) so am not bothered about the additional flying hours spent doing this.
Only other island I planned on visiting was Islay (myself, leave the others to climb Ben More!) and a couple of other islands and again to Oban to pick my brother up.... I am Scottish, originally from Paisley!
I would appreciate further feedback, if you have any, afterall, that's why I posted in the first place.
Thanks very much for your advice so far............
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I'd echo the comments about Warriors 4-up. Unless you have one of the uprated weight variants (2400 lbs???) you're already at max weight with 4 adult males, half tanks and no baggage at all. And 3hrs sounds like an over-estimate of endurance to me. With proper reserves your half tanks will only take you 1.5 to 2hrs.
On top of that a max weight Warrior is not a relaxing environment to be in on take-off. You'll be willing that VSI to show just a little more optimism.
But hey, if you do your ferrying trips between Mull and Oban as described, and do your W&B and performance calcs properly, and you already have some grass experience, there's no reason why you shouldn't try Mull.
I have an Excel spreadsheet which does performance calcs for the Warrior I usually fly. I can send you a copy if you PM me on the strict understanding that you must put in the correct weights for your particular Warrior, which may be heavier than ours.
On top of that a max weight Warrior is not a relaxing environment to be in on take-off. You'll be willing that VSI to show just a little more optimism.
But hey, if you do your ferrying trips between Mull and Oban as described, and do your W&B and performance calcs properly, and you already have some grass experience, there's no reason why you shouldn't try Mull.
I have an Excel spreadsheet which does performance calcs for the Warrior I usually fly. I can send you a copy if you PM me on the strict understanding that you must put in the correct weights for your particular Warrior, which may be heavier than ours.
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West Coast Experience
Sounds like you've got it worked out well ahead. I've flown quite a bit in that area with a similar number of hours to yourself, but have never risked anything other than concrete runways (OK, I'm a whoose!). That said, Plockton was very comfortable in a max-weight Tomahawk.
One thing nobody has said yet... need to think of your landing alternate in the event of bad weather. The weather in some of the valleys can be very localised, esp the Great Glen, which sometimes makes them impassable without an IMC. As has been pointed out, fuelling points are few and far between, and you always need to have enough to turn back for an alternate... which usually results in carrying far more fuel than is really necessary.
Those steep-turns you have to do for the GFT? You quite often need them for a turn in the valley without touching the cloud base, the water or the sides!
Should be fun though, especially in good weather. All the best, and enjoy. Nothing beats VFR "on top" in Scotland.
One thing nobody has said yet... need to think of your landing alternate in the event of bad weather. The weather in some of the valleys can be very localised, esp the Great Glen, which sometimes makes them impassable without an IMC. As has been pointed out, fuelling points are few and far between, and you always need to have enough to turn back for an alternate... which usually results in carrying far more fuel than is really necessary.
Those steep-turns you have to do for the GFT? You quite often need them for a turn in the valley without touching the cloud base, the water or the sides!
Should be fun though, especially in good weather. All the best, and enjoy. Nothing beats VFR "on top" in Scotland.
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We actually weighed 160 lbs each, (not too skinny 
) and took off from Glasgow with 35 galls. (Gallus Glasgow Galls you understand ). We had just about tabs(about 30 galls) when we landed. So I estimate our Landing/take-off weight at Mull was .......... about 2350 lbs. Wind was about 4-5kts straight across from the north. This is in a lovely wee 160Hp Warrior 2 (2440 MTOW). Over the fence at 70-65kts, touchdown about 100yds in and we were stopped with about 300yds to spare. On the a way out we took about 400m of ground roll, rotating about 55kts with 2 stages of flap. Don't climb out of ground effect too early. Keep the stick back after landing and on taxy to keep the weight off the nosewheel.
Now. If you are not too sure about grass strips, get an instructor checkout first, but it is well worth the effort.
Some advice in particular about Mull. The nicest grass strip I've ever had the privilege of being on. (that includes Compton Abbas, Old Sarum, Whiterashes, Feshiebridge, Dornoch is a close second .... and Gigha (beware the soft patch and ruts in the middle))
Land on the south (uphill) half of the runway. It can be a wee bit soft on the seaward side.
If the wind is 10kts or more from the south .. forget it. It gets a lot of downdraughts and turbulence from Ben More, and they are amplified by the trees south of 25 threshold.
I'd be careful with 4 up, but if you are pretty light with fuel and you know your aeroplane performance, why not? Do you count the runway lights on takeoff to see if the weight you've got matches the performance in the book ? I do and am pretty confident of my Warriors abilities but that is after a few years of experience. Alternatively do a couple of shuttle flights from Oban - it's only 10 minutes each way.
Gigha is possible in a Warrior, but I wouldn't take more than 2 people, and there is a slope at the 26 overrun end .... you don't want to overrun ..... it's a 40 foot cliff !!
If it has rained at all in the previous 3 days Gigha will be soft, and they don't cut the grass as often as they should. Phone the hotel for advice but remember they don't fly. If you want to PM me I could answer any more specific questions.
Although Glenforsa doesn't have fuel, it has better facilities than many many places. Try
www.glenforsa.com
for starters .... and the main courses and pudding are even better
Hotel is now run by an aviator - who pulls good beer, and has a Piper Cub based there.
My advice -- GO FOR IT !!
ISLAY ISLAY ISLAY - ISLE OF MY HEART - MY OWN ONE ... cue for a song .....
And of course, you can visit a couple of distilleries while you are there, or camp on a couple of beaches - Kilnaughton by Port Ellen, or Kintra campsite at the end of the runway. Scrounge a cuppa in the tower (very friendly folks)... and say \'hello\' from Glasgow
Definitely recommend the Ardbeg Distillery - good tours, ask for Jackie and Emma - superb restaurant (about £20 return taxi from the airport). 1.2 hr on a bike (hire it from Morags teabar at the terminal). Or wait for a bus. Tower has the times.
Or head the other way (NW) to Bowmore (20 min cycle) and visit their distillery. Good food and coffee in the Harbour Inn... at least it used to be ... think the previous owner (who had Islay\'s only based aircraft - PA28) just sold up.
Or hire a car and take it easy on your legs.
What the craic on Islay ?
http://www.ileach.co.uk/
Enjoy
) and took off from Glasgow with 35 galls. (Gallus Glasgow Galls you understand ). We had just about tabs(about 30 galls) when we landed. So I estimate our Landing/take-off weight at Mull was .......... about 2350 lbs. Wind was about 4-5kts straight across from the north. This is in a lovely wee 160Hp Warrior 2 (2440 MTOW). Over the fence at 70-65kts, touchdown about 100yds in and we were stopped with about 300yds to spare. On the a way out we took about 400m of ground roll, rotating about 55kts with 2 stages of flap. Don't climb out of ground effect too early. Keep the stick back after landing and on taxy to keep the weight off the nosewheel.Now. If you are not too sure about grass strips, get an instructor checkout first, but it is well worth the effort.
Some advice in particular about Mull. The nicest grass strip I've ever had the privilege of being on. (that includes Compton Abbas, Old Sarum, Whiterashes, Feshiebridge, Dornoch is a close second .... and Gigha (beware the soft patch and ruts in the middle))
Land on the south (uphill) half of the runway. It can be a wee bit soft on the seaward side.
If the wind is 10kts or more from the south .. forget it. It gets a lot of downdraughts and turbulence from Ben More, and they are amplified by the trees south of 25 threshold.
I'd be careful with 4 up, but if you are pretty light with fuel and you know your aeroplane performance, why not? Do you count the runway lights on takeoff to see if the weight you've got matches the performance in the book ? I do and am pretty confident of my Warriors abilities but that is after a few years of experience. Alternatively do a couple of shuttle flights from Oban - it's only 10 minutes each way.
Gigha is possible in a Warrior, but I wouldn't take more than 2 people, and there is a slope at the 26 overrun end .... you don't want to overrun ..... it's a 40 foot cliff !!
If it has rained at all in the previous 3 days Gigha will be soft, and they don't cut the grass as often as they should. Phone the hotel for advice but remember they don't fly. If you want to PM me I could answer any more specific questions.
Although Glenforsa doesn't have fuel, it has better facilities than many many places. Try
www.glenforsa.com
for starters .... and the main courses and pudding are even better
Hotel is now run by an aviator - who pulls good beer, and has a Piper Cub based there.
My advice -- GO FOR IT !!
ISLAY ISLAY ISLAY - ISLE OF MY HEART - MY OWN ONE ... cue for a song .....
And of course, you can visit a couple of distilleries while you are there, or camp on a couple of beaches - Kilnaughton by Port Ellen, or Kintra campsite at the end of the runway. Scrounge a cuppa in the tower (very friendly folks)... and say \'hello\' from Glasgow
Definitely recommend the Ardbeg Distillery - good tours, ask for Jackie and Emma - superb restaurant (about £20 return taxi from the airport). 1.2 hr on a bike (hire it from Morags teabar at the terminal). Or wait for a bus. Tower has the times.
Or head the other way (NW) to Bowmore (20 min cycle) and visit their distillery. Good food and coffee in the Harbour Inn... at least it used to be ... think the previous owner (who had Islay\'s only based aircraft - PA28) just sold up.
Or hire a car and take it easy on your legs.
What the craic on Islay ?
http://www.ileach.co.uk/
Enjoy
Last edited by Skinny Runt; 25th Jun 2004 at 23:18.
The Original Whirly
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The more I read this the more it worries me...
You say "a bit of baggage". Have you actually weighed what you're going to take? You AND the other three people? Have you honestly weighed yourselves, fully clothed?
I flew with a co-pilot in the Highlands in a C152 last summer, and with the same person in Europe last month. We took nothing but flying essentials and one change of clothes, and we were still on the limit with regards to weight. You'll have four headsets, charts, flight guides, flight planning equipment to start with. I can get my personal items down to 5-6lbs; can you and the other three do the same? Even so...
4 x headsets - about 6lbs (estimated)
4 x empty bags/ cases - 6lbs minimum
Flight guides, charts etc - about 5lbs
4 x change of clothes/toothbrushes - 24lbs
cameras, mobile phones, chargers for them, and other bits you've forgotten about - 12lbs
Minimal luggage is 53lbs!!! And with four people I'd be surprised if you could take that little, actually.
Prove me wrong if you like, but so close to limits you MUST weigh EVERYTHING, and you MUST make sure you have enough fuel to divert in bad weather - and that includes sudden bad weather when you least expect it. And don't forget, if the weather gets hot, that degrades performance too.
I'm not trying to put you off. But I've toured quite a lot at max aircraft weight, and it's scary how an aircraft with excellent performance suddenly changes if you're hot or high or at the weight limit.
You say "a bit of baggage". Have you actually weighed what you're going to take? You AND the other three people? Have you honestly weighed yourselves, fully clothed?
I flew with a co-pilot in the Highlands in a C152 last summer, and with the same person in Europe last month. We took nothing but flying essentials and one change of clothes, and we were still on the limit with regards to weight. You'll have four headsets, charts, flight guides, flight planning equipment to start with. I can get my personal items down to 5-6lbs; can you and the other three do the same? Even so...
4 x headsets - about 6lbs (estimated)
4 x empty bags/ cases - 6lbs minimum
Flight guides, charts etc - about 5lbs
4 x change of clothes/toothbrushes - 24lbs
cameras, mobile phones, chargers for them, and other bits you've forgotten about - 12lbs
Minimal luggage is 53lbs!!! And with four people I'd be surprised if you could take that little, actually.
Prove me wrong if you like, but so close to limits you MUST weigh EVERYTHING, and you MUST make sure you have enough fuel to divert in bad weather - and that includes sudden bad weather when you least expect it. And don't forget, if the weather gets hot, that degrades performance too.
I'm not trying to put you off. But I've toured quite a lot at max aircraft weight, and it's scary how an aircraft with excellent performance suddenly changes if you're hot or high or at the weight limit.
Just building on what Whirly says
An ex-CSE Warrior (I fly one too) like the one at Sherburn will have an empty weight of about 1550 lbf, and an MTOW of 2325lbf, so that's a useable load of 775 lbf. I don't think well in pounds, so let's make that 352kg.
Assuming an average 13 stone adult (in clothing remember) that's 83kg x 4 = 332kg.
352kg - 332kg = 20 kg, or 28 litres of fuel.
That's roughly one hour, with no reserves and no toothbrush.
Sorry I didn't point that out earlier. Best replan now before your CFI publically does it for you. I'd suggest leaving somebody behind is the ONLY way to do this, since:-
352kg - (3 x 82kg) = 106kg.
- 4 hours fuel carefully leaned (28 x 4 x 0.72 = 80kg) gives 26kg left.
Which is just about enough for some light bags (57lbf, just slightly more than Whirly's best-guess).
G
An ex-CSE Warrior (I fly one too) like the one at Sherburn will have an empty weight of about 1550 lbf, and an MTOW of 2325lbf, so that's a useable load of 775 lbf. I don't think well in pounds, so let's make that 352kg.
Assuming an average 13 stone adult (in clothing remember) that's 83kg x 4 = 332kg.
352kg - 332kg = 20 kg, or 28 litres of fuel.
That's roughly one hour, with no reserves and no toothbrush.
Sorry I didn't point that out earlier. Best replan now before your CFI publically does it for you. I'd suggest leaving somebody behind is the ONLY way to do this, since:-
352kg - (3 x 82kg) = 106kg.
- 4 hours fuel carefully leaned (28 x 4 x 0.72 = 80kg) gives 26kg left.
Which is just about enough for some light bags (57lbf, just slightly more than Whirly's best-guess).
G
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Dear all, thanks for all your comments so far. However, I feel, particularly Genghis's comments are unfair and based on assumptions. So let me give you details of weight, planning,etc and please now let me know whether in your judgement I should continue or adjust my flight plans......
1st assumption - must be good VFR conditions otherwise I am not going ahead. Whilst I would fly normally in marginal VFR conditions, I wouldn't do this for a weekend trip, particularly flying so far from base.
Weight:
MTOW: 2440lbs (1109kgs)
Aircraft basic empty weight: 1557lbs (708kgs)
Usable load: 883lbs (401kgs)
Pilot + passenger 352lbs (160kgs)
2 rear passengers 308lbs (140kgs)
(slightly skinnier than your assumptions Genghis and fully clothed - already weighed)
Baggage 40lbs (18kgs)
(already listed, weighed and includes flying gear) (we don't need many clothes, we are not out to pull the local talent on Mull!!!)
So that leaves me with 182lbs (83kgs) for fuel which in my calculations is 115 litres (25 imp. gallons) - 8 gallons / hour burn give me an endurance of c. 3 hours. Awaiting more details of winds on the day, assume a flight time to Prestwick (for fuel) from LBA at 100knts/hour 1hr 25 mins mins point to point + 20 mins on ground at LBA + 25 mins approach at Prestwick gives a total of 2hrs 10 mins with 50 mins reserve. Options for diversion are Carlisle en-route and Glasgow. If on the day winds suggest that this becomes extremely marginal (i.e. head wind) then Carlisle becomes my first fuel en-route stop.
As for arriving at Mull, if wind conditions are not favourable, then Oban is the obvious choice of destination. I have no problems with that. However good the conditions are on the return, I will be ferrying passengers in two trips to Oban before initiating my return to LBA.
I know I am relatively inexperienced compared to a BA pilot but I have the confidence in my planning and flying to do this in GOOD conditions (remember, any worse than good VFR then I'm not going ahead). Please don't mistake inexperience for being foolhardy. I am able to recognse when something is too much for me and cancel where appropriate.
Would really appreciate your feedback.
1st assumption - must be good VFR conditions otherwise I am not going ahead. Whilst I would fly normally in marginal VFR conditions, I wouldn't do this for a weekend trip, particularly flying so far from base.
Weight:
MTOW: 2440lbs (1109kgs)
Aircraft basic empty weight: 1557lbs (708kgs)
Usable load: 883lbs (401kgs)
Pilot + passenger 352lbs (160kgs)
2 rear passengers 308lbs (140kgs)
(slightly skinnier than your assumptions Genghis and fully clothed - already weighed)
Baggage 40lbs (18kgs)
(already listed, weighed and includes flying gear) (we don't need many clothes, we are not out to pull the local talent on Mull!!!)
So that leaves me with 182lbs (83kgs) for fuel which in my calculations is 115 litres (25 imp. gallons) - 8 gallons / hour burn give me an endurance of c. 3 hours. Awaiting more details of winds on the day, assume a flight time to Prestwick (for fuel) from LBA at 100knts/hour 1hr 25 mins mins point to point + 20 mins on ground at LBA + 25 mins approach at Prestwick gives a total of 2hrs 10 mins with 50 mins reserve. Options for diversion are Carlisle en-route and Glasgow. If on the day winds suggest that this becomes extremely marginal (i.e. head wind) then Carlisle becomes my first fuel en-route stop.
As for arriving at Mull, if wind conditions are not favourable, then Oban is the obvious choice of destination. I have no problems with that. However good the conditions are on the return, I will be ferrying passengers in two trips to Oban before initiating my return to LBA.
I know I am relatively inexperienced compared to a BA pilot but I have the confidence in my planning and flying to do this in GOOD conditions (remember, any worse than good VFR then I'm not going ahead). Please don't mistake inexperience for being foolhardy. I am able to recognse when something is too much for me and cancel where appropriate.
Would really appreciate your feedback.
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I've posted about this before and I haven't been to Mull, but if you had seen the Warrior nearly fail to get out of Eggesford 4-up a couple of months ago you would be thinking even harder about this. I know you're not foolhardy, but I see a hell of a lot of critical numbers in your flight planning. Good luck to you, but I like a lot of margin myself, not a little.
Why overstretch yourself on a first long trip? Plan to take one friend and plan to stop at Carlisle for fuel. With no offence to Warrior lovers, these things are dogs at gross weight and three passengers who don't know about aviation is three people to look after and calm down just when you don't want to, just when the weather is going down in Mull.
Don't make this into a marginal aircraft for this trip. Be kind to yourself.
QDM
Why overstretch yourself on a first long trip? Plan to take one friend and plan to stop at Carlisle for fuel. With no offence to Warrior lovers, these things are dogs at gross weight and three passengers who don't know about aviation is three people to look after and calm down just when you don't want to, just when the weather is going down in Mull.
Don't make this into a marginal aircraft for this trip. Be kind to yourself.
QDM
[EGCF] It's not personal, I assure you. I know Warriors fairly well, and have flown into Mull a few times (in fact may do so on my own holidays this summer).
A lovely spot with wind that convinently is channelled right down the runway, but nonetheless Glenforsa is not a particularly easy approach and runway, and I know to my personal cost that Warriors are not good short field machines. At a time when I had rather less experience than I do now (but still probably four times what you have at present) I bent a PA28-161, overrunning a runway, in conditions where I was on-paper well inside the safety margins, but experience hadn't yet taught either me to be far more cautious, or the finer points of PA28 short field technique. I'd just hate to see somebody else do something similar.
Incidentally, if you are looking to combine climbing and flying, you'd be far better off aiming for Broadford on the Isle of Skye, which is admittedly unserviced most of the time, but is in-sight of the Cullin Ridge, as well as having a longer, easier, and tarmac runway. (Last I was there, I also got to watch two whales playing in Broadford bay on my way out). Nice SYHA hostel in Broadford village, about an hours walk from the airfield.
G
A lovely spot with wind that convinently is channelled right down the runway, but nonetheless Glenforsa is not a particularly easy approach and runway, and I know to my personal cost that Warriors are not good short field machines. At a time when I had rather less experience than I do now (but still probably four times what you have at present) I bent a PA28-161, overrunning a runway, in conditions where I was on-paper well inside the safety margins, but experience hadn't yet taught either me to be far more cautious, or the finer points of PA28 short field technique. I'd just hate to see somebody else do something similar.
Incidentally, if you are looking to combine climbing and flying, you'd be far better off aiming for Broadford on the Isle of Skye, which is admittedly unserviced most of the time, but is in-sight of the Cullin Ridge, as well as having a longer, easier, and tarmac runway. (Last I was there, I also got to watch two whales playing in Broadford bay on my way out). Nice SYHA hostel in Broadford village, about an hours walk from the airfield.
G
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I feel, particularly Genghis's comments are unfair and based on assumptions
You are a fool if you take a PA28 161 into Glenforsa with 3 or 4 people.
If you cant understand that then get your CFI to explain it.
If your club CFI does not stop you then he or she is a fool also.
Tony
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Tony R, thanks for your advice but if you read my last post, I have already made it clear that I am going to ferry from Oban to Mull and not land or take off in Glenforsfa with full pax. Please read before commenting. Although what I will say and re-iterate is that I am not foolhardy and won't risk my passengers, mine or anyone else's safety. I do want to go to Mull and if I do and that means shipping pax from Oban then that is what I will do.
I posted for advice and that is what I am taking onboard. If I had no intention of listening and absorbing info then I wouldn't have posted in the first place.
I will say, keep it coming, the more comments on this the better.
I posted for advice and that is what I am taking onboard. If I had no intention of listening and absorbing info then I wouldn't have posted in the first place.
I will say, keep it coming, the more comments on this the better.
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You are a fool if you take a PA28 161 into Glenforsa with 3 or 4 people.
If you cant understand that then get your CFI to explain it.
If your club CFI does not stop you then he or she is a fool also.
If you cant understand that then get your CFI to explain it.
If your club CFI does not stop you then he or she is a fool also.
However, each time I have worked out weight for the landing and take off (including fuel burn to get there which would reduce the weight which existed on departure from my home base). We have never been at max weight of course (no heavyweights on board) and I would agree that that would be pushing the envelope a bit when you factor in the CAA take off performance limits to do so. Interestingly, it looks doable on max weight in the Archer I now fly, but a little too close to my own personal safety margin !!
On each occasion I have had about 500' spare (to the 50' height in the POH) after making the calculations and using the graph supplied by Piper.
In reality, the aircraft has actually performed slightly better than the calculations, but then that is what the safety factoring is all about and to be expected.
I also make a mental decision point where if acceleration is not up to scratch then I will scrub the take off with plenty of time to stop.
In all cases the runway has been dry and in good condition and the aircraft has had a relatively newly reconditioned engine.
So with careful planning, and experience, as well as a good airframe .... it can be, and is, done.
I would echo the thoughts of others though, that it is not to be attempted by those who don't have short strip experience or haven't operated off an easier grass field and know how to handle the aircraft on that surface. It is not the kind of place to build up non existent experience in operating your aircraft close to, or at, its limits.
Like everything in aviation, there is risk involved, otherwise none of us would go flying. But provided you do the sums, add on all the extra factors for safety, and are not flying a pig of an aircraft, then it is certainly achievable.
The only overrun I have heard of on Mull was by a PA32 Cherokee Six which had 7 people on board and ended up taking half the perimeter barbed wire fence with it when getting airborne. In spite of the fuel tank being punctured and leaking, the pilot continued all the way back to Edinburgh ... where the CAA representatives were waiting to have a chat with him. I think he was charged with endangering the safety of an aircraft.
EGCJFlyer seems to me to know his limitations and has a plan to deal with them. I don't expect to read about any mishap when he makes his trip to Mull
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EGCJFlyer,
Believe me, I don't want to put anyone off flying. And I don't think anyone else here does either. But...
You say this is your first long trip. Have you flown for an long as eight hours before, in unfamiliar territory, over such a short period of time? Have you taken up three non-flying friends before? Have these particular friends been in a light aircraft for such long periods before?
I ask all this because fatigue and stress are strange things. As someone mentioned, looking after non-flying passengers can be tiring. And long flights, doing all the radio and nav, and particularly all the decision making yourself, is also exhausting. You don't notice it at the time; that sort of fatigue is quite insidious. But you can start to make mistakes, or just not be quite ready to cope if things don't quite go according to plan. If you get overloaded (mentally I mean; not talking about the aircraft here), there is no-one to help out, or to recognise that you're overloaded. And you won't recognise it; there just isn't enough of your overworked brain left to stand back and say: "OK, you're overloaded; orbit and chill out".
At your stage, I certainly shouldn't have been doing long flights like this one, with three passengers, to an area of the country with a lot of inhospitable terrain and known for its sudden weather changes. I'm not saying that means that you shouldn't do it; I don't know you, so I can't say that. But do YOU know it? Do you have enough experience to know that you can do this? If you haven't done so, maybe you should work upwards, from something a little less challenging - less passengers or somewhere closer to home or an easier place to land. I don't know if you're over-confident, but I do know that over-confidence is common among low hours pilots. You don't - and can't - know what you don't know.
Unless there are some facts here that you haven't told us, I really think you should take less passengers or go somewhere else. Feel free to think I'm a worrying wimp if you like. But you did ask!
Believe me, I don't want to put anyone off flying. And I don't think anyone else here does either. But...
You say this is your first long trip. Have you flown for an long as eight hours before, in unfamiliar territory, over such a short period of time? Have you taken up three non-flying friends before? Have these particular friends been in a light aircraft for such long periods before?
I ask all this because fatigue and stress are strange things. As someone mentioned, looking after non-flying passengers can be tiring. And long flights, doing all the radio and nav, and particularly all the decision making yourself, is also exhausting. You don't notice it at the time; that sort of fatigue is quite insidious. But you can start to make mistakes, or just not be quite ready to cope if things don't quite go according to plan. If you get overloaded (mentally I mean; not talking about the aircraft here), there is no-one to help out, or to recognise that you're overloaded. And you won't recognise it; there just isn't enough of your overworked brain left to stand back and say: "OK, you're overloaded; orbit and chill out".
At your stage, I certainly shouldn't have been doing long flights like this one, with three passengers, to an area of the country with a lot of inhospitable terrain and known for its sudden weather changes. I'm not saying that means that you shouldn't do it; I don't know you, so I can't say that. But do YOU know it? Do you have enough experience to know that you can do this? If you haven't done so, maybe you should work upwards, from something a little less challenging - less passengers or somewhere closer to home or an easier place to land. I don't know if you're over-confident, but I do know that over-confidence is common among low hours pilots. You don't - and can't - know what you don't know.
Unless there are some facts here that you haven't told us, I really think you should take less passengers or go somewhere else. Feel free to think I'm a worrying wimp if you like. But you did ask!