The Quality of your Instruction…
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
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PPRuNe Towers,
I don't get it. The Phoenix refused to name the school, or give any indication of where it was. So how could that involve PPRune in a legal case? And how does it excuse blatantly calling someone a liar with no grounds, rather than mentioning that there are two sides to every story and/or that people on PPRune have been known to lie?
I don't get it. The Phoenix refused to name the school, or give any indication of where it was. So how could that involve PPRune in a legal case? And how does it excuse blatantly calling someone a liar with no grounds, rather than mentioning that there are two sides to every story and/or that people on PPRune have been known to lie?
I never have subscribed to the view that Moderators should be moderate. Personally my husbandry of my forums involves keeping things lively - elsewise all you get is a million threads about who's sponsoring and which is the best school. All very dull. Much better to have some hurly burly. I bet this thread has caused the hit rate of Private Flying to spike up a bit.
I think what I said originally was that "I don't believe that happened". Which is subtley different from running around yelling "Liar, liar pants on fire". A student pilots perception of events is often a bit skewed as its all a bit new and amazing to them.
Anyway - I can't get excited about it. You can't take PPRuNe too seriously or too earnestly people.
And Whirly - I've been an instructor now for a decade I - quite scarily - just noticed. No sign of burnout yet but my cynicism is as intact as it ever was.
There are shoddy schools out there and I've trained at them. There are near death trap aircraft hired out to student pilots and there are plenty of underpaid, miserable, dispirited instructors who frankly don't give a damn for anything other than your money and another logbook entry.
There are some things to look for that you only ever find out about until after you've got your license and some experience.
I suspect that the majority of pilots out there look back on their PPL training and see how they would have done it differently to make it better.
Cheers
WWW
I think what I said originally was that "I don't believe that happened". Which is subtley different from running around yelling "Liar, liar pants on fire". A student pilots perception of events is often a bit skewed as its all a bit new and amazing to them.
Anyway - I can't get excited about it. You can't take PPRuNe too seriously or too earnestly people.
And Whirly - I've been an instructor now for a decade I - quite scarily - just noticed. No sign of burnout yet but my cynicism is as intact as it ever was.
There are shoddy schools out there and I've trained at them. There are near death trap aircraft hired out to student pilots and there are plenty of underpaid, miserable, dispirited instructors who frankly don't give a damn for anything other than your money and another logbook entry.
There are some things to look for that you only ever find out about until after you've got your license and some experience.
I suspect that the majority of pilots out there look back on their PPL training and see how they would have done it differently to make it better.
Cheers
WWW
PPruNaholic!
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Boy, am I glad I learned to fly with the professional instructors and standards of British Airways Flying Club at Wycombe... I hadn't really considered that I was getting something so unusual, but am fast forming the impression that I was lucky!?
I hope some of the heavy-handed comments have not put off our friend Phoenix!
Andy
I hope some of the heavy-handed comments have not put off our friend Phoenix!
Andy
Join Date: Oct 2000
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It doesn't take a genius to look back at various posts from Phoenix to work out who the school are. That's why I haven't done it yet. 
Seriously, some one else has and the school itself know all about this thread.
They are quite right I think, not going to get involved on a public forum with an ex-student and fair play to them for doing that.
The school, from what I have heard from students who have e-mailed me and Pm'ed, me have a genuinely good reputation to keep up. The last thing I want to do is recieve a phone call from the owner and having to sort things out that way. I have done it twice over the last year and don't want to do it again.
Back to the thread in hand now, and again, I will let it run and see if it settles down again. If not and I close it then you only have yorselves to blame.
Seriously, some one else has and the school itself know all about this thread. They are quite right I think, not going to get involved on a public forum with an ex-student and fair play to them for doing that.
The school, from what I have heard from students who have e-mailed me and Pm'ed, me have a genuinely good reputation to keep up. The last thing I want to do is recieve a phone call from the owner and having to sort things out that way. I have done it twice over the last year and don't want to do it again.
Back to the thread in hand now, and again, I will let it run and see if it settles down again. If not and I close it then you only have yorselves to blame.
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Whirly, we've never clashed before and I see no need to now.
The thread has been a good one for the industry because it has given cause to think about perceptions of training throughout the UK both by providers and customers. It's provided extremely valuable advice for folks at what is the most vulnerable, anxious and baffling stage of their aviation journey as you found out yourself.
Phoenix has been repeatedly challenged on every significant point because we have seen enough to pretty much know the school referred to. If we can work it out so can many others, if not you.
The experience Phoenix claims simply does not tally with the reputation of the school and the instructors we believe are being referred to.
Cast your mind back and you will note we have not stepped in when some other establishments have come under intense, critical scrutiny despite legal threats. I leave you to draw your own conclusions other than pointing out the school we believe Phoenix attends does not and has never advertised with us. I'd also point out that only one moderator makes a living as an civilian flying instructor and that person is in Australia.
We wholeheartedly support the best in UK GA but we are never beholding to commercial enterprises. Should anyone view that cynically you can see the proof that we consistently maintain that policy on a scale that utterly dwarves the whole of UK and European GA.
Simply enter the words easyJet or Ryanair into our search engine. Have a look at what comes up regarding our two prime advertisers
Regards
Rob
The thread has been a good one for the industry because it has given cause to think about perceptions of training throughout the UK both by providers and customers. It's provided extremely valuable advice for folks at what is the most vulnerable, anxious and baffling stage of their aviation journey as you found out yourself.
Phoenix has been repeatedly challenged on every significant point because we have seen enough to pretty much know the school referred to. If we can work it out so can many others, if not you.
The experience Phoenix claims simply does not tally with the reputation of the school and the instructors we believe are being referred to.
Cast your mind back and you will note we have not stepped in when some other establishments have come under intense, critical scrutiny despite legal threats. I leave you to draw your own conclusions other than pointing out the school we believe Phoenix attends does not and has never advertised with us. I'd also point out that only one moderator makes a living as an civilian flying instructor and that person is in Australia.
We wholeheartedly support the best in UK GA but we are never beholding to commercial enterprises. Should anyone view that cynically you can see the proof that we consistently maintain that policy on a scale that utterly dwarves the whole of UK and European GA.
Simply enter the words easyJet or Ryanair into our search engine. Have a look at what comes up regarding our two prime advertisers
Regards
Rob
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 13th Oct 2003 at 22:19.
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Well, to those who say that without the "spiceing up" that has happened on this thread, that private flying is boring or stale, I would point out that Private Flying has the 4th highest number of posting. That is on a forum on a "professional pilots" board, and a forum that is in operation for a shorter period than those with more posts, and is generally a very friendly place.
Seems most of us actually like the place friendly, and do keep comming back, and don't need any spiceing up.
Seems most of us actually like the place friendly, and do keep comming back, and don't need any spiceing up.
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I acknowledge the hard work that the moderators do, and I acknowledge the tough decisions that you take and I acknowledge the resources that you put in.
It takes a far better person than I to do these things. I have seen BRL and Rob touching the tiller lightly and I have seen Danny going a bit OTT, but still remaining basically decent.
I question whether WWW has the very high level of skill demonstrated by the other moderators.
His saying that he did not call TPR a liar is disingenuous. Here is but one example:
B0ll0cks.
Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs... yeah right. I don't personally give a toss where you are training or when you alledge all this took place. There is a no chance I nor the CAA is going to spend a single second checking it out.
Saying someone is speaking B0ll0cks is calling them a liar.
Why did I question whether my post would be allowed to stay? I have seen a couple of people who I know to be thoroughly decent and pleasant being quite badly treated by PPRuNe. One of them is retired very hurt indeed and I don't wish to rake that up, the other is a lady friend whose "crime" was to object to BRL being arrogant and referring to "his" forum (something that I notice WWW does as well) and she was permanently banned. To tell the truth, it was her treatment that put me off joining for some years.
Tony
Edited to add example
It takes a far better person than I to do these things. I have seen BRL and Rob touching the tiller lightly and I have seen Danny going a bit OTT, but still remaining basically decent.
I question whether WWW has the very high level of skill demonstrated by the other moderators.
His saying that he did not call TPR a liar is disingenuous. Here is but one example:
I also quite clearly recall that the final words to me from the Instructor #2 as I boarded the aircraft for the solo were along the lines of ‘look at that magnificent cumulonimbus cloud formation… did know that that type of cloud has more energy in it than an atomic bomb’. (Actually, it might have been 6 A-bombs). I had no idea whether that was true at the time, and frankly still don’t, I have yet to read or take Met. Whether the thunder and lightning had started before my navex I cannot say, I am not sure. It had not at the airfield.
Look at that magnificent CB... off you go Bloggs... yeah right. I don't personally give a toss where you are training or when you alledge all this took place. There is a no chance I nor the CAA is going to spend a single second checking it out.
Why did I question whether my post would be allowed to stay? I have seen a couple of people who I know to be thoroughly decent and pleasant being quite badly treated by PPRuNe. One of them is retired very hurt indeed and I don't wish to rake that up, the other is a lady friend whose "crime" was to object to BRL being arrogant and referring to "his" forum (something that I notice WWW does as well) and she was permanently banned. To tell the truth, it was her treatment that put me off joining for some years.
Tony
Edited to add example
Last edited by Tony Bowers; 14th Oct 2003 at 00:34.
Simplicate and Add Lightness
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Back to the subject?
Blimey, how far off-topic can this go?
TB, I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks of our cuddly moderator as 'arrogant'. There are several descriptions that come to mind (eg, 'beer monster' and 'recovering scouser'
), but not arrogant.
Back to the subject:
What I find interesting about this debate is that some instructors are so professional that they simply cannot believe the behaviour of other less scrupulous people. They have worked hard for their gold stripes and cannot countenance the fact that, despite all the regulation and red tape, standards really do vary appallingly in the industry. I'm sure there's a name for this syndrome - I know it's been observed and documented in other fields such as Medicine and I.T..
Just my 2d worth.
TB, I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks of our cuddly moderator as 'arrogant'. There are several descriptions that come to mind (eg, 'beer monster' and 'recovering scouser'
), but not arrogant.Back to the subject:
What I find interesting about this debate is that some instructors are so professional that they simply cannot believe the behaviour of other less scrupulous people. They have worked hard for their gold stripes and cannot countenance the fact that, despite all the regulation and red tape, standards really do vary appallingly in the industry. I'm sure there's a name for this syndrome - I know it's been observed and documented in other fields such as Medicine and I.T..
Just my 2d worth.
Thread Starter
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Folks,
I don't really know where all this is going now. It seems it is a little way off the original posting.
The school, frankly, is not part of this discussion. It is entirely a private matter for me to take up with the school.
Actually I am not sure that I 'alleged' any impropriety at the school in terms of their tuition. I am too new to this to know if the teaching experiences of which I have been on the receiving end were good or bad practice, or common or rare. I have not said that the school doesn’t produce PPL’s, and I haven’t said it is bad overall. I have sought and seek to bring no individual or establishment into any disrepute or controversy of any kind. All I have done is relate here, entirely accurately, what has happened to me in their hands, and this is the entire thrust of my postings. If the school happens to know who I am, then they can look at my notes and check the dates and they will know about my solo flights, and who sent me up on them. The Instructor concerned certainly knows this.
If the school knows, then great! They will know why I am going to talk to the CFI. But I do think I owe it, out of common courtesy, to raise my problems with them direct first before I go and mention names. You can deduce what you like and assume what you like, but the name of the school remains confidential as far as I am concerned.
One other thing, if I may:
To me, this is serious stuff. The fact of the matter is that I could have been killed on that first solo navex. Frankly, it was damned frightening. I think I have taken an enormous amount of flak from some people in this thread, actually moderators of PPRuNe itself, and I am really disappointed to find that those, at least, could not approach this with an open mind. I have not even had a formal request by pm, or openly in the thread, from PPRuNe to verify my statements, yet there is a statement here from a senior member of PPRuNe that I am disbelieved. I think that is a shame, and immensely unfair to me.
You have in me a student with modest hours and experience who knows no other pilots other than the instructors at the school who teach him. I do not know the other students who are there. I have attended no social gatherings there. I have no friends or colleagues who are pilots, with whom I could discuss these issues and from whom I could take soundings. So, I tried to take soundings on this forum, to gather opinions, knowledge and experiences, to form an opinion as to what I should do. To have received such an unfair, pre-judged rebuff from those at the very core of this site is most disheartening.
To those others of you, many, who have believed my story and offered their advice and shared their own experiences here, I say a great thank you.
I now ask that this thread be closed off.
TP
I don't really know where all this is going now. It seems it is a little way off the original posting.
The school, frankly, is not part of this discussion. It is entirely a private matter for me to take up with the school.
Actually I am not sure that I 'alleged' any impropriety at the school in terms of their tuition. I am too new to this to know if the teaching experiences of which I have been on the receiving end were good or bad practice, or common or rare. I have not said that the school doesn’t produce PPL’s, and I haven’t said it is bad overall. I have sought and seek to bring no individual or establishment into any disrepute or controversy of any kind. All I have done is relate here, entirely accurately, what has happened to me in their hands, and this is the entire thrust of my postings. If the school happens to know who I am, then they can look at my notes and check the dates and they will know about my solo flights, and who sent me up on them. The Instructor concerned certainly knows this.
If the school knows, then great! They will know why I am going to talk to the CFI. But I do think I owe it, out of common courtesy, to raise my problems with them direct first before I go and mention names. You can deduce what you like and assume what you like, but the name of the school remains confidential as far as I am concerned.
One other thing, if I may:
To me, this is serious stuff. The fact of the matter is that I could have been killed on that first solo navex. Frankly, it was damned frightening. I think I have taken an enormous amount of flak from some people in this thread, actually moderators of PPRuNe itself, and I am really disappointed to find that those, at least, could not approach this with an open mind. I have not even had a formal request by pm, or openly in the thread, from PPRuNe to verify my statements, yet there is a statement here from a senior member of PPRuNe that I am disbelieved. I think that is a shame, and immensely unfair to me.
You have in me a student with modest hours and experience who knows no other pilots other than the instructors at the school who teach him. I do not know the other students who are there. I have attended no social gatherings there. I have no friends or colleagues who are pilots, with whom I could discuss these issues and from whom I could take soundings. So, I tried to take soundings on this forum, to gather opinions, knowledge and experiences, to form an opinion as to what I should do. To have received such an unfair, pre-judged rebuff from those at the very core of this site is most disheartening.
To those others of you, many, who have believed my story and offered their advice and shared their own experiences here, I say a great thank you.
I now ask that this thread be closed off.
TP
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TPR
Just one thing: don't mention names in this business, ever (not that you would but I am saying it anyway).
The reason is this: the GA training business is not, generally, doing very well. Most schools are at best only just hanging in there. As a result, there is a lot of slagging off going on. You've only got to say something, purely in passing, which just conceivably might be considered by somebody else as ever so slightly critical of somebody else, and it will travel at 150kt around the airfield
If it is an airfield with a number of schools then you can bet they are making even less money and it will travel at 200kt (IAS)... And it will get modified at each waypoint, usually in a manner which makes the originator look very bad when it arrives at its destination. And the destination is whatever anybody wants it to be, to suit their own agenda.
GA is quite small and a lot of people know each other, and a lot of them have their own agendas. School A may not like school B because school A's students have to walk past B's front door on their way to the aircraft, and occassionally some will desert. And that's just the easy stuff. Within a school, one often finds too many instructors for the number of students, with predictable results.
And so on. In this business, it's best to keep one's head down
We could all post notes about something dreadful. I could post details of dreadful maintenance practices, multi-aircraft school fly-outs over the channel 100kg over MTOW and with no liferafts and not enough lifejackets, you name it. But one must resist the temptation. For a start, these things are pretty widespread.
As I've said before, get your PPL, get your FAA PPL/IR, get your plane, and do some real flying. THEN, when you search for hangar space for your plane, you will really begin to appreciate why keeping your head down for the last few years was such a good idea
I am saying this only 25% tongue in cheek. The rest is personal experience.
Just one thing: don't mention names in this business, ever (not that you would but I am saying it anyway).
The reason is this: the GA training business is not, generally, doing very well. Most schools are at best only just hanging in there. As a result, there is a lot of slagging off going on. You've only got to say something, purely in passing, which just conceivably might be considered by somebody else as ever so slightly critical of somebody else, and it will travel at 150kt around the airfield
If it is an airfield with a number of schools then you can bet they are making even less money and it will travel at 200kt (IAS)... And it will get modified at each waypoint, usually in a manner which makes the originator look very bad when it arrives at its destination. And the destination is whatever anybody wants it to be, to suit their own agenda.GA is quite small and a lot of people know each other, and a lot of them have their own agendas. School A may not like school B because school A's students have to walk past B's front door on their way to the aircraft, and occassionally some will desert. And that's just the easy stuff. Within a school, one often finds too many instructors for the number of students, with predictable results.
And so on. In this business, it's best to keep one's head down
We could all post notes about something dreadful. I could post details of dreadful maintenance practices, multi-aircraft school fly-outs over the channel 100kg over MTOW and with no liferafts and not enough lifejackets, you name it. But one must resist the temptation. For a start, these things are pretty widespread.
As I've said before, get your PPL, get your FAA PPL/IR, get your plane, and do some real flying. THEN, when you search for hangar space for your plane, you will really begin to appreciate why keeping your head down for the last few years was such a good idea
I am saying this only 25% tongue in cheek. The rest is personal experience.
Thread Starter
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Hi Folks:
Although some months have gone by since this thread was current, there has been some activity in the background.
I would like to say a huge thank you to Martin Robinson, Chief Executive Officer of AOPA, and Tony Ryan too, for taking my case so seriously and for taking the trouble to fly down for a meeting with the Club in question for a sort-out.
To all of you who have ever criticised AOPA, I can only say that they were sure there for me and if you haven't paid your sub, you should go and do so!
TP
Although some months have gone by since this thread was current, there has been some activity in the background.
I would like to say a huge thank you to Martin Robinson, Chief Executive Officer of AOPA, and Tony Ryan too, for taking my case so seriously and for taking the trouble to fly down for a meeting with the Club in question for a sort-out.
To all of you who have ever criticised AOPA, I can only say that they were sure there for me and if you haven't paid your sub, you should go and do so!
TP
