The Quality of your Instruction…
I wouldn't read anything into an instructor not putting a fuel cap on quite straight. We are all human.
What were you doing in France on a training exercise? Did you request to do the trip or something?
Seem of dubious training value to plod across the channel on a navex when you could be flying a leg with a map in one hand whilst negotiating to traverse some controlled airspace and then get a diversion. Lunch in France sounds like a jolly day out for the instructor with some training value thrown in as an afterthought.
Would make me suspect the standards are slack if it is routine for low time students on navexs to end up taking Lunch in frogland.
You did have a dinghy on board I hope? Or were you wearing a drysuit?
WWW
What were you doing in France on a training exercise? Did you request to do the trip or something?
Seem of dubious training value to plod across the channel on a navex when you could be flying a leg with a map in one hand whilst negotiating to traverse some controlled airspace and then get a diversion. Lunch in France sounds like a jolly day out for the instructor with some training value thrown in as an afterthought.
Would make me suspect the standards are slack if it is routine for low time students on navexs to end up taking Lunch in frogland.
You did have a dinghy on board I hope? Or were you wearing a drysuit?
WWW
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WWW:
AAAAARGH!!!
You have really got me into the serious giggles now!
Are you getting such a bashing here that you have to resort to posting what I said in another thread?!!
Heehee!! Come on, put your disbelieving hatchet away.
This is too funny for words...!
TP
Ooops, and I've just seen your posting above...
Yes, that's right, we both had full frog suits on already...!
TP
AAAAARGH!!!
You have really got me into the serious giggles now!
Are you getting such a bashing here that you have to resort to posting what I said in another thread?!!
Heehee!! Come on, put your disbelieving hatchet away.
This is too funny for words...!
TP
Ooops, and I've just seen your posting above...
Yes, that's right, we both had full frog suits on already...!
TP
IO540 - the problem with GPS is twofold.
1) its so good that people use it all the time and forget how to cope without it.
2) the units have so many options and a limited interface that results in an inordinante amount of heads down time fiddling with it.
I've no problem with them myself - I have a Garmin PilotIII and think its wonderful. Its useful in IMC IR training as you can show Bloggs in real time just how pants his hold pattern is. It is very useful to show blogs what is happening pictorally and get him to relate that to what the needles are doing. I find this allows Bloggs to build the mental model he needs in a fraction of the time it often takes without.
I think a lot of people bemoan the rise of GPS because it takes some of the skill away from aviating. Thereby devaluing it a little.
Unfortunately this is an age old and accelerating trend. Blatting about in a tiger moth is much harder than in a C152. In the future we will all be flying FADEC push button diesel engines with integrated GPS avionics and probably basic autopilots.
You could call it progress and be grateful or you could lament the facts.
Cheers
WWW
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What bashing? This isn't bashing. Hell I've been in 27 page threads with death threats before now. This is barely a heated word.
Glad to hear you had frog suits on. Your chances of survival without are minimal even in the Channel in summer.
Right, I'm off waterskiing for the first time now. If I don't post again you'll know it didn't go well.
Cheers
WWW
ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible.
1) its so good that people use it all the time and forget how to cope without it.
2) the units have so many options and a limited interface that results in an inordinante amount of heads down time fiddling with it.
I've no problem with them myself - I have a Garmin PilotIII and think its wonderful. Its useful in IMC IR training as you can show Bloggs in real time just how pants his hold pattern is. It is very useful to show blogs what is happening pictorally and get him to relate that to what the needles are doing. I find this allows Bloggs to build the mental model he needs in a fraction of the time it often takes without.
I think a lot of people bemoan the rise of GPS because it takes some of the skill away from aviating. Thereby devaluing it a little.
Unfortunately this is an age old and accelerating trend. Blatting about in a tiger moth is much harder than in a C152. In the future we will all be flying FADEC push button diesel engines with integrated GPS avionics and probably basic autopilots.
You could call it progress and be grateful or you could lament the facts.
Cheers
WWW
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What bashing? This isn't bashing. Hell I've been in 27 page threads with death threats before now. This is barely a heated word.
Glad to hear you had frog suits on. Your chances of survival without are minimal even in the Channel in summer.
Right, I'm off waterskiing for the first time now. If I don't post again you'll know it didn't go well.
Cheers
WWW
ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible.
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WWW I stayed out of this thread 'til now because I don't use VOR/DME etc at all (the a/c I fly has none...) but.....X-channel as a student?
There was an article in Flyer by a fairly well known instructor that made the point that as a morale booster and in the right circumstances and timing it is a superb exercise. "Why am I spending all this money to learn to fly?" ..... trip to calais/Le2K ...."of course, THATS why I'm spending all this money!!"
This particular QFI does a lot of x-channel check-outs, so has no need to manufacture jollys.
An open mind can be a good thing, even perhaps for a very experienced instructor.
Slip
There was an article in Flyer by a fairly well known instructor that made the point that as a morale booster and in the right circumstances and timing it is a superb exercise. "Why am I spending all this money to learn to fly?" ..... trip to calais/Le2K ...."of course, THATS why I'm spending all this money!!"
This particular QFI does a lot of x-channel check-outs, so has no need to manufacture jollys.
An open mind can be a good thing, even perhaps for a very experienced instructor.
Slip
I'm willing to be persuaded. I'm just naturally suspicious of dual navexs that involve landing somewhere agreeable. Its always at the students expense and sometimes has dubious training value but is a nice day out for the instructor.
That said I used to engineer it myself to take a couple of students off for the day and do some landaways in Faro and Granada for lunch. It can make a pleasant change for everyone and make the training more enjoyable for Bloggs.
Or it can be a lazy arsed freebie for some hour building clock watching scum of an instructor who probably eats babies or something.
Take your pick.
Cheers
WWW
That said I used to engineer it myself to take a couple of students off for the day and do some landaways in Faro and Granada for lunch. It can make a pleasant change for everyone and make the training more enjoyable for Bloggs.
Or it can be a lazy arsed freebie for some hour building clock watching scum of an instructor who probably eats babies or something.
Take your pick.
Cheers
WWW
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WWW:
That's fine. I can hardly believe it either!
Next time you are down my way, come and have a drink and meet this Instructor. You can ask direct then...
TP
ps I still don't believe your instructor sent you out solo navex with CB's visible.
Next time you are down my way, come and have a drink and meet this Instructor. You can ask direct then...
TP
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hmmm, about those silly things like compass and clock.
Royal Nepalese 75 just lost the lot out of KTM - that's Kathmandu. Bit lumpy out there. Just about an hour for it to get down safely. The two previous 75's it happened to didn't make it. Lost all on board. Technology is a tool and only a tool relies on it.
GPS - sole or primary nav - be honest. You know and I know that folks are using it as sole. They haven't drawn a line on a map since they discovered the combining of the words credit card, Duracell and Garmin.
It's habitual, it's engrained and it's thoroughly supported by the industry because the mark up is higher than a half mill.
The training experiences suffered by the Phoenix and others are and have always been available in the UK and elsewhere. I first set foot in a club 28 years ago and asked the gods to teach me to fly. Ended up having to threaten to call the CAA before they'd get the POH for a PA28-140 out of the safe. I didn't agree with them that it actually was a 4 seater when fueled up and wanted to do a W&B. Tragic thing was I had my licence by then and no one else had ever had the gumption to demand the same during the prior 8 years Cherokees had flown there.
They continued to fly that way for many years after.
I may fly full glass with a head up display these days but I'm still very active in light aviation. Nothing suprises me amongst these seemingly bizarre experiences. For all apparently mortally wounded by by the Welshman's turn of phrase sup once more from his words. Wind yourselves up into a tizzy yet again and once calmed down re-read. As with others posting here there's some very good advice within.
The uncomfortable fact for many of you is that the Weslshman won't lie down and be shafted. He and anyone he advises will not be walked over by lazy, bored, shoddy practices in GA. If you don't think they exist you are very, very wrong.
Regards
Rob
PS If you do fly with all that dreadful nav and comms gear in your aeroplane here's a pointer to an invaluable resource you will be utterly daft to ignore.
A two page avionics trouble shooting guide which is both excellent and free. Comes as a pdf download for you to print out and laminate if you've got any sense at all.
Go to
http://www.aea.net/MemberDirectory/
Click on 'Pilot Resources in the left margin and on the page that comes up you select the third item down catchily titled:
Pilot's Avionics Troubleshooting Guide
If you feel first stages of each procedure seem simplistic you've obviously never spoken to an avionics engineer about their experiences or flown with me
Royal Nepalese 75 just lost the lot out of KTM - that's Kathmandu. Bit lumpy out there. Just about an hour for it to get down safely. The two previous 75's it happened to didn't make it. Lost all on board. Technology is a tool and only a tool relies on it.
GPS - sole or primary nav - be honest. You know and I know that folks are using it as sole. They haven't drawn a line on a map since they discovered the combining of the words credit card, Duracell and Garmin.
It's habitual, it's engrained and it's thoroughly supported by the industry because the mark up is higher than a half mill.
The training experiences suffered by the Phoenix and others are and have always been available in the UK and elsewhere. I first set foot in a club 28 years ago and asked the gods to teach me to fly. Ended up having to threaten to call the CAA before they'd get the POH for a PA28-140 out of the safe. I didn't agree with them that it actually was a 4 seater when fueled up and wanted to do a W&B. Tragic thing was I had my licence by then and no one else had ever had the gumption to demand the same during the prior 8 years Cherokees had flown there.
They continued to fly that way for many years after.
I may fly full glass with a head up display these days but I'm still very active in light aviation. Nothing suprises me amongst these seemingly bizarre experiences. For all apparently mortally wounded by by the Welshman's turn of phrase sup once more from his words. Wind yourselves up into a tizzy yet again and once calmed down re-read. As with others posting here there's some very good advice within.
The uncomfortable fact for many of you is that the Weslshman won't lie down and be shafted. He and anyone he advises will not be walked over by lazy, bored, shoddy practices in GA. If you don't think they exist you are very, very wrong.
Regards
Rob
PS If you do fly with all that dreadful nav and comms gear in your aeroplane here's a pointer to an invaluable resource you will be utterly daft to ignore.
A two page avionics trouble shooting guide which is both excellent and free. Comes as a pdf download for you to print out and laminate if you've got any sense at all.
Go to
http://www.aea.net/MemberDirectory/
Click on 'Pilot Resources in the left margin and on the page that comes up you select the third item down catchily titled:
Pilot's Avionics Troubleshooting Guide
If you feel first stages of each procedure seem simplistic you've obviously never spoken to an avionics engineer about their experiences or flown with me
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Hi PPRuNe Towers:
Thanks for your comments.
I am here to learn, and share. I am appreciative of all comments on flying. The Welshman may be a great pilot / instructor. But in my book there is no place for rudeness or bad manners of any kind, in any walk of life. Others have kindly imparted their knowledge here with style and good will. The Welshman's people skills suck.
However, I have now forgiven him...!
IO540: 8/10
I know this Instructor is not that well off. But I can’t believe this occurred because of wanting to get a fee. Knowing what I now know, I think it is more likely a case of just being not terribly good at the job.
Tiger_Moth: 8/10
You’re a lucky person.
Whirlybird: 8/10
Does the Instructor that saved you live anywhere near me and if so can I have the telephone number?!
Circuit Basher: 8/10
Brilliant post. Thank you!
Whirlybird: 9/10
Terrifying. What happened to the owner/school, was it closed down?
Aussie Andy: 9/10
Thanks for the comments. As for perception, believe me I know the difference between real rain, thunder and lightning in the air flying on a solo navex, and something in my imagination.
This thread and the comments of you folk have certainly made me decide to tackle the school about it, as you may already have seen. I am going to get to the CFI with a list, and a formal letter recording the details I am raising in the meeting. After that, I will go to the CAA. Even if I am laughed at by some.
dublinpilot: 9/10
Brilliant post, and thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
Strafer: 9/10
ditto above.
say again slowly: 9/10
Para 1: well, this one did. Para 2: I mis-read earlier, I know now you are referring to In Altissimus over the QXC. My QXC was my second solo navex. My first was that described in #1 of the original posting to this thread.
Look, folks. Flying is something I have always wanted to do. I also have a very real reason for doing it, and a very real purpose for doing it. It is also the only job I have ever wanted to do other than that which I do do. Dinner parties, rich businessmen… oh come on, please! Why mock those with lesser knowledge and ability - at the moment - than you may have?
Ok, time for another break and a cup of tea!
TP
Thanks for your comments.
I am here to learn, and share. I am appreciative of all comments on flying. The Welshman may be a great pilot / instructor. But in my book there is no place for rudeness or bad manners of any kind, in any walk of life. Others have kindly imparted their knowledge here with style and good will. The Welshman's people skills suck.
However, I have now forgiven him...!
IO540: 8/10
I know this Instructor is not that well off. But I can’t believe this occurred because of wanting to get a fee. Knowing what I now know, I think it is more likely a case of just being not terribly good at the job.
Tiger_Moth: 8/10
You’re a lucky person.
Whirlybird: 8/10
Does the Instructor that saved you live anywhere near me and if so can I have the telephone number?!
Circuit Basher: 8/10
Brilliant post. Thank you!
Whirlybird: 9/10
Terrifying. What happened to the owner/school, was it closed down?
Aussie Andy: 9/10
Thanks for the comments. As for perception, believe me I know the difference between real rain, thunder and lightning in the air flying on a solo navex, and something in my imagination.
This thread and the comments of you folk have certainly made me decide to tackle the school about it, as you may already have seen. I am going to get to the CFI with a list, and a formal letter recording the details I am raising in the meeting. After that, I will go to the CAA. Even if I am laughed at by some.
dublinpilot: 9/10
Brilliant post, and thank you. I couldn’t agree more.
Strafer: 9/10
ditto above.
say again slowly: 9/10
Para 1: well, this one did. Para 2: I mis-read earlier, I know now you are referring to In Altissimus over the QXC. My QXC was my second solo navex. My first was that described in #1 of the original posting to this thread.
Look, folks. Flying is something I have always wanted to do. I also have a very real reason for doing it, and a very real purpose for doing it. It is also the only job I have ever wanted to do other than that which I do do. Dinner parties, rich businessmen… oh come on, please! Why mock those with lesser knowledge and ability - at the moment - than you may have?
Ok, time for another break and a cup of tea!
TP
Last edited by The Phoenix Rises; 12th Oct 2003 at 01:41.
The Original Whirly
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TP,
The instructor I referred to left for a well deserved airline job the day after I finished my PPL. He was an hour builder, but believed in doing his best at everything he did. Not all airline wannabe hour building instructors are bad. The good ones get jobs quicker, I've noticed; their attitude shows - as does that of the bad ones! Sometimes life IS fair. The school should have been closed down; I know an instructor who tried to get it closed, and failed. But it's closed now, and the airfield is under new management.
Unfortunately I don't know any good instructors in your area, but someone will, and I'm sure they exist; keep looking.
The instructor I referred to left for a well deserved airline job the day after I finished my PPL. He was an hour builder, but believed in doing his best at everything he did. Not all airline wannabe hour building instructors are bad. The good ones get jobs quicker, I've noticed; their attitude shows - as does that of the bad ones! Sometimes life IS fair. The school should have been closed down; I know an instructor who tried to get it closed, and failed. But it's closed now, and the airfield is under new management.
Unfortunately I don't know any good instructors in your area, but someone will, and I'm sure they exist; keep looking.
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TPR, you are generally quite careful to be post a specific reply to each person that has responded in this thread. However, you've not replied to me about naming the school at which this all happened. So, I'm just curious, why have you elected not to name this flying school? The consensus is that what happened to you is terrible and as it is a matter of absolute fact there is presumably no problem with spreading gossip about them.
Just what the hell are 'people skills'? Sounds like more new age management Pseudo tosh to me.
Be very very very careful about letting people know what you think of any FTO. You can land yourself in legal trouble quite easily - I've seen it happen before and its a pain for all involved.
Your real identity is easily established.
Cheers
WWW
Be very very very careful about letting people know what you think of any FTO. You can land yourself in legal trouble quite easily - I've seen it happen before and its a pain for all involved.
Your real identity is easily established.
Cheers
WWW
I reserve the right to let you have the last word.
Cheers
WWW
Cheers
WWW
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I am a relative newby (to PPRuNe, not aviation) and mainly lurk, so maybe my opinion doesn't count for much, but I am on many other forums and newsgroups and would say that the contributions to this thread by WWW fall well below the standard normally expected of moderators.
In most places moderators are the ones who step in when an individual is being accused of lying, who put oil on the water when it gets rough and who plead for moderation, rather than be the accusers, stirers and shouters, acting as judge and jury.
If I were WWW I would seriously consider whether I were an appropriate person to be a moderator.
I'll be interested to see how long this posting stays on the thread. If the moderators have the interests of the forum at heart it will stay, if they (as I fear) are more interested in their own power and prestige it will disappear having only been read by a few. I may even be banned. I would only ask those few who do see it to carry the message forward.
Tony
In most places moderators are the ones who step in when an individual is being accused of lying, who put oil on the water when it gets rough and who plead for moderation, rather than be the accusers, stirers and shouters, acting as judge and jury.
If I were WWW I would seriously consider whether I were an appropriate person to be a moderator.
I'll be interested to see how long this posting stays on the thread. If the moderators have the interests of the forum at heart it will stay, if they (as I fear) are more interested in their own power and prestige it will disappear having only been read by a few. I may even be banned. I would only ask those few who do see it to carry the message forward.
Tony
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WWW is robustly making the point that there tends to be more than one side to most stories, and that the same events can admit of more than one interpretation. Given the gravity of the claims being made here, that point needs to be made fairly strongly.
The Original Whirly
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Well, I'm a very new instructor and I may change my mind, but at the moment I feel that people skills are at least as important as flying skills when teaching someone to fly. Unfortunately I get the impression that not a lot of instructors know that. 
WWW sounds like he's suffering from instructor burn-out, or maybe just plain old bitterness and cynicism.
WWW sounds like he's suffering from instructor burn-out, or maybe just plain old bitterness and cynicism.
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Tony B. Your post makes intersting reading. you say you are a lurker and your opinion doesn't count for much. Well, your opinion is valued the same as anyone else who reads pprune. Just because you don't post often doesn't mean you have no weight behind you.
Second point is why you think your post would be deleted and yourself banned
Why????
As for moderating this thread, I stepped in a few pages back to calm things down a bit and it worked for a while. Right now, most of the posts have gone back to having a go at individuals rather than the main point of this thread and that is, "The quality of your instruction...."
"What next then" I hear you cry. Well, whatever I say I will do to stop the thread turning into a flame war, I will get a lot of stick by some. The only thing I can do to save it is lock it and leave it and that I might do if it continues to go the way it is going.
Second point is why you think your post would be deleted and yourself banned
Why????As for moderating this thread, I stepped in a few pages back to calm things down a bit and it worked for a while. Right now, most of the posts have gone back to having a go at individuals rather than the main point of this thread and that is, "The quality of your instruction...."
"What next then" I hear you cry. Well, whatever I say I will do to stop the thread turning into a flame war, I will get a lot of stick by some. The only thing I can do to save it is lock it and leave it and that I might do if it continues to go the way it is going.
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Tony, as someone who's been running the site since it started I have to ask why you think we'd remove your post?
It's us who are being belted by low flying lawyers missives regarding a long running thread here on affairs at another GA field and we take it all in our stride. It happened last year with a thread regarding another UK operation.
As I wrote before nothing that goes on in UK GA can suprise me. However, a mild 'it takes two sides' won't cut it in this case. The Welshman was looking after our interests in two ways. He gave excellent advice regarding flight training to all those new to aviation and he made it brutally clear to the Phoenix that whether to us, his club/FTO or the CAA SRG group that he or she would have to front up with solid information at some point if wishing to persist with such claims.
It is obvious that Phoenix is willing to do that privately whatever the merits of the case and thus, you will note and I'm sure Phoenix will confirm, not one word of their multiple posts has been altered, edited or deleted.
For those who need it spelling out: the Welshman could have made all those points using another ID. He did it with a moderators subtitle as it offers us a more substantial defence if needed. Why?????
Phoenix while admittting, what might seem to some, breathtaking naivety also alleges serious failings at a school. Despite this being The PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumour Network more than 95% of our legal problems stem from aggrieved Flight Training Organisations/Airfield Operators. In this way we were able to allow an important debate to continue. It may well be you'd do it another way - that's fine by me. Collectively PPRuNe challenged the story repeatedly while offering thought through advice.
I find that People Skills singularly fail to stop lawyers trying to take away my home. I hope you'll understand if not agree.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
It's us who are being belted by low flying lawyers missives regarding a long running thread here on affairs at another GA field and we take it all in our stride. It happened last year with a thread regarding another UK operation.
As I wrote before nothing that goes on in UK GA can suprise me. However, a mild 'it takes two sides' won't cut it in this case. The Welshman was looking after our interests in two ways. He gave excellent advice regarding flight training to all those new to aviation and he made it brutally clear to the Phoenix that whether to us, his club/FTO or the CAA SRG group that he or she would have to front up with solid information at some point if wishing to persist with such claims.
It is obvious that Phoenix is willing to do that privately whatever the merits of the case and thus, you will note and I'm sure Phoenix will confirm, not one word of their multiple posts has been altered, edited or deleted.
For those who need it spelling out: the Welshman could have made all those points using another ID. He did it with a moderators subtitle as it offers us a more substantial defence if needed. Why?????
Phoenix while admittting, what might seem to some, breathtaking naivety also alleges serious failings at a school. Despite this being The PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumour Network more than 95% of our legal problems stem from aggrieved Flight Training Organisations/Airfield Operators. In this way we were able to allow an important debate to continue. It may well be you'd do it another way - that's fine by me. Collectively PPRuNe challenged the story repeatedly while offering thought through advice.
I find that People Skills singularly fail to stop lawyers trying to take away my home. I hope you'll understand if not agree.
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 13th Oct 2003 at 19:52.