BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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The vast majority of employees do not have the luxury of renegotiating their T&Cs every time there is the slightest change to their workload. BA is a business, not a staff employment club.
If it is reasonable and within their job description then there's no reason why they shouldn't do it. Cabin crew won't be asked to perform duties outside the cabin, not least because they don't have the training to do so.
If it is reasonable and within their job description then there's no reason why they shouldn't do it. Cabin crew won't be asked to perform duties outside the cabin, not least because they don't have the training to do so.
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Fascinating to read, in the CC only forum, that DH thinks that his "Loyal Union Members" have been harshly dealt with by WW. Says it all really - their true purpose in life should be to be "Loyal BA Employees"!
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Safety Concerns:
Your post is EXACTLY why BA passengers are looking forward to Mixed Fleet, why Mixed Fleet is necessary and why it is also necessary that Mixed Fleet be kept separate from the influence of the hard-line BASSA members.
An example. My hubby reserved a local establishment for the England/U.S. World Cup game. He didn't host the bar but he did host the food and several large screen televisions were brought in for the event. There were even tables and televisions outside under canopies.
It was a simply wonderful event. Heavily attended, wonderful exchange between the Company and community, a definite plus. One of his employees came up to me and said "We've never had anything like this, it's simply brilliant.".
If my husband used your and BASSA's logic the event would never have happened because his first thought would be "If I do this, then what will they expect next...I'm starting down a dangerous path.".
Thank goodness he, and the three unions that participate in success with him, have a different approach.
Your post is EXACTLY why BA passengers are looking forward to Mixed Fleet, why Mixed Fleet is necessary and why it is also necessary that Mixed Fleet be kept separate from the influence of the hard-line BASSA members.
An example. My hubby reserved a local establishment for the England/U.S. World Cup game. He didn't host the bar but he did host the food and several large screen televisions were brought in for the event. There were even tables and televisions outside under canopies.
It was a simply wonderful event. Heavily attended, wonderful exchange between the Company and community, a definite plus. One of his employees came up to me and said "We've never had anything like this, it's simply brilliant.".
If my husband used your and BASSA's logic the event would never have happened because his first thought would be "If I do this, then what will they expect next...I'm starting down a dangerous path.".
Thank goodness he, and the three unions that participate in success with him, have a different approach.
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This is direct from the London Heathrow Aerodrome Book and shows the regulations regarding APU usage.
It is fairly common to find APU restrictions, engineers may have different restrictions, but for crews on everyday operations it can be quite restrictive.
3.4.3 Auxiliary Power Units (APU)
procedures
3.4.3.1 APU must be shut down at the earliest
opportunity on arrival on stand.
3.4.3.2 APU must not be used as a substitute
where FEGP is adequately provided
and serviceable.
3.4.3.3 3. APUs are not permitted
to be used between 2330 and 0600
(local) on:
Cargo Area Stands 601-609
and 611-616;
Stands 401-403, 429-432
and 463, except in an emergency.
3.4.3.4 No APU is to be left running
unless either a qualifi ed person
is in attendance or the APU has
both an auto-shut down and an
auto-extinguishing facility.
procedures
3.4.3.1 APU must be shut down at the earliest
opportunity on arrival on stand.
3.4.3.2 APU must not be used as a substitute
where FEGP is adequately provided
and serviceable.
3.4.3.3 3. APUs are not permitted
to be used between 2330 and 0600
(local) on:
Cargo Area Stands 601-609
and 611-616;
Stands 401-403, 429-432
and 463, except in an emergency.
3.4.3.4 No APU is to be left running
unless either a qualifi ed person
is in attendance or the APU has
both an auto-shut down and an
auto-extinguishing facility.
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Safety Concerns
Most airports...where? Never been a rule at any airport I worked at.
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I'm baffled. Not for the first time with this whole dispute, but this ranks up there as a milestone in the silly season.
I quite often fly out of LGW to a rather nice - but often very warm - destination in Eastern Europe. I'm also used to hearing, on boarding the aircraft, that there'll be a possible 2 hour ATC delay. Often turns out to be 20 minutes, but anyway. The blinds are always pulled down when this happens - I assume because it's the middle of the afternoon, bloomin' hot, and the sun is beating down on the aircraft and if you're sat there for up to two hours then the APU isn't really an option. I consequently assume that the crew have no issues with doing the same on return to LGW, should it be a hot day there? So if this diktat has been imposed on LGW crew for as long as I can remember - why another big song and dance re: the LHR crew and where were BASSA when someone decided at Gatwick that this was to be working practice? And if it's not declared policy, then a big thanks to all crew who have the common sense to try and make things more pleasant for passengers.
Believe me I get the duty hours+ sneaking on the 5 mins extra argument as I've been there with an airline doing that to me, but this really is just coming across as trying to just be difficult for the sake of it. I just cannot grasp that every tiny alteration to working practices must be subjected to such scrutiny on every occasion. An effective union should be there to protect employees when there is a genuine concern - minor alterations to working practices just don't fall within this category. They just don't. Whatever happened to sound judgement and the ability to distinguish when there is a real need to go into bat for members? It's remarkable to me that window blinds are even up for debate, and yet New Fleet/Mixed Fleet was a big fat no to negotiation. Does anybody here seriously believe that the pages we're spending on discussion APU policies at airports was even in BASSA's mind when they brought this up? This is just a good old fashioned "let's be as difficult as we can be if we can't strike" tactic.
As a BA ff, I'm sticking with LGW and LCY whenever I can. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and the crew from those two bases have consistently delivered fantastic service - LHR is just too bogged down in this industrial dispute for me to chance spending my money on the possibility of crewmembers wanting to be difficult or play silly buggers.
I quite often fly out of LGW to a rather nice - but often very warm - destination in Eastern Europe. I'm also used to hearing, on boarding the aircraft, that there'll be a possible 2 hour ATC delay. Often turns out to be 20 minutes, but anyway. The blinds are always pulled down when this happens - I assume because it's the middle of the afternoon, bloomin' hot, and the sun is beating down on the aircraft and if you're sat there for up to two hours then the APU isn't really an option. I consequently assume that the crew have no issues with doing the same on return to LGW, should it be a hot day there? So if this diktat has been imposed on LGW crew for as long as I can remember - why another big song and dance re: the LHR crew and where were BASSA when someone decided at Gatwick that this was to be working practice? And if it's not declared policy, then a big thanks to all crew who have the common sense to try and make things more pleasant for passengers.
Believe me I get the duty hours+ sneaking on the 5 mins extra argument as I've been there with an airline doing that to me, but this really is just coming across as trying to just be difficult for the sake of it. I just cannot grasp that every tiny alteration to working practices must be subjected to such scrutiny on every occasion. An effective union should be there to protect employees when there is a genuine concern - minor alterations to working practices just don't fall within this category. They just don't. Whatever happened to sound judgement and the ability to distinguish when there is a real need to go into bat for members? It's remarkable to me that window blinds are even up for debate, and yet New Fleet/Mixed Fleet was a big fat no to negotiation. Does anybody here seriously believe that the pages we're spending on discussion APU policies at airports was even in BASSA's mind when they brought this up? This is just a good old fashioned "let's be as difficult as we can be if we can't strike" tactic.
As a BA ff, I'm sticking with LGW and LCY whenever I can. I've finally had enough of this nonsense and the crew from those two bases have consistently delivered fantastic service - LHR is just too bogged down in this industrial dispute for me to chance spending my money on the possibility of crewmembers wanting to be difficult or play silly buggers.
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This is just a good old fashioned "let's be as difficult as we can be if we can't strike" tactic.
The management has played hard ball with staff travel, the union is playing hard ball back and the whole performance is doing ther airline harm.
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SC
I am glad to see you are coming back to the central issue. I agree that any extra task can be the thin end of the wedge, and it is the duty of any responsible union to keep an eye on this.
And yes - the tricky bit is where to draw the line. It's basically a judgement call, and I suggest a large helping of common sense is the most helpful tool in this, together with a good look at the wider issues.
If you are just playing devil's advocate, fair enough. But if you are really agonising over this decision, a quick re-read of the hundreds (thousands?) of posts on these forums may be of assistance. Also, BASSA's insistence on a H&S committee review of the dangeous task of lowering a blind may give you a clue about who is acting in good faith here.
And yes - the tricky bit is where to draw the line. It's basically a judgement call, and I suggest a large helping of common sense is the most helpful tool in this, together with a good look at the wider issues.
If you are just playing devil's advocate, fair enough. But if you are really agonising over this decision, a quick re-read of the hundreds (thousands?) of posts on these forums may be of assistance. Also, BASSA's insistence on a H&S committee review of the dangeous task of lowering a blind may give you a clue about who is acting in good faith here.
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but have to ask why would you expect it to be any other way after a dispute that has being going on for nearly 9 months?
This isn't playing hardball. That would have been to sit down and thrash out a damn good deal re: Mixed Fleet. That would have been playing hardball. It's easy to be petty.
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I have followed these threads for some months and thought that BASSA had lost the plot. However on mature reflection it becomes clear that they did not have a plot merely a series of convulsive twitches each one causing annother shot in the foot.
Is it any wonder then that they hobble from farce to disaster.
Is it any wonder then that they hobble from farce to disaster.
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Lotpax:
This approach is why BASSA is on the extreme weak end of the dispute, and they simply refuse to learn lessons.
"What would I expect after 9 months?".
Let's be serious here. If after 9 months I was on the receiving end of an absolutely failed strike, an entity that was now more empowered to make future strikes irrelevant, with a City that has increased their backing of my employer, tens of thousands of co-workers that are determined that I not win, and a U.K. public that pretty much loathes me, I might say..."I need to present a more serious side to counteract all of this negative impression.".
But no, BASSA stays true to its reputation and issues a message asking for a safety review over CLOSING BLINDS!
Is there someone in the background of BASSA determined to make them look like a bad Panto?
I accept Wiggy's input, but have to ask why would you expect it to be any other way after a dispute that has being going on for nearly 9 months?
The management has played hard ball with staff travel, the union is playing hard ball back and the whole performance is doing ther airline harm.
The management has played hard ball with staff travel, the union is playing hard ball back and the whole performance is doing ther airline harm.
"What would I expect after 9 months?".
Let's be serious here. If after 9 months I was on the receiving end of an absolutely failed strike, an entity that was now more empowered to make future strikes irrelevant, with a City that has increased their backing of my employer, tens of thousands of co-workers that are determined that I not win, and a U.K. public that pretty much loathes me, I might say..."I need to present a more serious side to counteract all of this negative impression.".
But no, BASSA stays true to its reputation and issues a message asking for a safety review over CLOSING BLINDS!
Is there someone in the background of BASSA determined to make them look like a bad Panto?
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If the CC "are BA" as they claim, then it is time for BA to be "changed". In all my years I have never witnessed a situation such as the putting the blinds down, hot towels in WT Plus nonsense (for what it is worth, it is not guaranteed in Club World) . Get real BASSA. Your behaviour has demonstrated you can not lead, manage or compromise.. so what is your purpose?
Bring on New Fleet.. advertise what flights will be operated by them and I am certain the market will support them with their custom.
Bring on New Fleet.. advertise what flights will be operated by them and I am certain the market will support them with their custom.
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Like the above poster I have been following this thread and the CC only thread as well. I fly out of what would be considered a very warm climate here at MCO. My airline of choice is Delta and when I get on the plane all the shades are down and the aircraft is on ground air as well as ground power. Are these not available at the wonderful Middle Eastern airports I hear so much about? The APU is shut down as soon as ground power and air are connected and this is normally before the door has been opened.
This whole issue of pulling down the shades being escalated to union involvement shows there are great cultural differences between the UK and the US.
This whole issue of pulling down the shades being escalated to union involvement shows there are great cultural differences between the UK and the US.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
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It's not a cultual difference it just shows that BASSA are preparede to subjugate H & S laws to their own IR ends.
If they ain't happy perhaps they should involve the HSE. (who would probably laugh them out of the room)
If they ain't happy perhaps they should involve the HSE. (who would probably laugh them out of the room)
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Swissflyer:
Isn't it a rather sad result of this dispute that many frequent flyers are now rather adamant that they would prefer NOT to travel with BASSA strikers.
Hopefully BA will provide some code to its patrons so that we will know what flights are Mixed Fleet so that we can book with ease.
Though, if I understand representations correctly, we will be able to recognize them at various sites from their hats. A very good branding from BA to its passengers.
Isn't it a rather sad result of this dispute that many frequent flyers are now rather adamant that they would prefer NOT to travel with BASSA strikers.
Hopefully BA will provide some code to its patrons so that we will know what flights are Mixed Fleet so that we can book with ease.
Though, if I understand representations correctly, we will be able to recognize them at various sites from their hats. A very good branding from BA to its passengers.
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Diplome
I am flying on BA for the first time next week in Club World. If you are interested I will be happy to share my opinions on your airline when I return. I am a very seasoned traveler and will be very interested to see how I am treated.
I am flying on BA for the first time next week in Club World. If you are interested I will be happy to share my opinions on your airline when I return. I am a very seasoned traveler and will be very interested to see how I am treated.
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Diplome
The hat idea is brilliant. Tell us more. 
Is it the same as the rumour I heard (OK, maybe started) that anyone wearing a BASSA lanyard will have to wear a comedy hat - or crash helmet whilst engaged in hazardous blind-pulling operations?
Is it the same as the rumour I heard (OK, maybe started) that anyone wearing a BASSA lanyard will have to wear a comedy hat - or crash helmet whilst engaged in hazardous blind-pulling operations?
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Apart from the rather stupidly worded statement from BASSA I have no idea why it's a problem. However, It seems to be a problem of some significance as it's filled four or five pages of the forum.
In the scheme of this dispute it hardly warrants such prominence. I would think that the problem is a minor one in comparison to all the other troubles for BA.
Outside of this BA (and this forum) there seems to be little concern or opinion one way or the other about the dispute. BASSA have no support in the greater TU movement.
In the scheme of this dispute it hardly warrants such prominence. I would think that the problem is a minor one in comparison to all the other troubles for BA.
Outside of this BA (and this forum) there seems to be little concern or opinion one way or the other about the dispute. BASSA have no support in the greater TU movement.
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Switzerland
Not a place you think of as hot what with all that snow etc. yet...
Zurich early to mid afternoon in summer 30 degrees was not unusual and
they certainly used to ban the use of APU (noise reduction) as briefed earlier on this thread - 20 mins before departure - close to the time passengers (SLF) arrived.
I knew a captain who used to regularly close blinds, assisting the crew on turnaround (also used to wet the tea on occasion), on the sunward side and also ensure all the normal air vents were and open pointed all in the same direction. It just about kept the cabin at a similar temperature to that of arrival.
Once the SLF had embarked their body heat and the, now open to sunlight, windows ensured a significant increase in temperature.
I've been there, seen it, experienced it - blinds help even if in only a small way.
R.
Zurich early to mid afternoon in summer 30 degrees was not unusual and
they certainly used to ban the use of APU (noise reduction) as briefed earlier on this thread - 20 mins before departure - close to the time passengers (SLF) arrived.
I knew a captain who used to regularly close blinds, assisting the crew on turnaround (also used to wet the tea on occasion), on the sunward side and also ensure all the normal air vents were and open pointed all in the same direction. It just about kept the cabin at a similar temperature to that of arrival.
Once the SLF had embarked their body heat and the, now open to sunlight, windows ensured a significant increase in temperature.
I've been there, seen it, experienced it - blinds help even if in only a small way.
R.
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All
I have a solution for the 'pulling down the blind problem' once the aircraft is in its parking slot, post flight.
er hem
Ladies and Gentleman this is your Captain speaking
'Would you be so kind as to pull down the blind of your window before disembarking, - i really do appreciate your assistance in this matter and wish you a safe onward journey' Thank you for flying with BA etc etc
Just a thought......
I have a solution for the 'pulling down the blind problem' once the aircraft is in its parking slot, post flight.
er hem
Ladies and Gentleman this is your Captain speaking
'Would you be so kind as to pull down the blind of your window before disembarking, - i really do appreciate your assistance in this matter and wish you a safe onward journey' Thank you for flying with BA etc etc
Just a thought......