BA scrap meals(except breakfast!)
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It will be interesting to see what happens in C class as there is often a significant price difference - or will BA just resort to charging for extra legroom seats, as ZB and others already do?
Agree that those travelling near the sharp end do often rely on a meal at either end of the day. It can be a very early start and a late return on these shorter European routes where day trips can often be the norm.
Agree that those travelling near the sharp end do often rely on a meal at either end of the day. It can be a very early start and a late return on these shorter European routes where day trips can often be the norm.
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LH
I fly business for work and economy short haul when I travel for pleasure. BA have finally lost me completely. I was already inclined to LH much more generous with upgrades, the call centre staff speak better English etc.
But now just no question about it BA's an airline which has lost its way, they should have tackled the costs earlier and better.
But now just no question about it BA's an airline which has lost its way, they should have tackled the costs earlier and better.
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For years the 'regular' airlines have been downgrading, what used to be meals, to a sandwich or biscuits or similar, many of them seem to be looking at ways of reducing costs.
There was a time that KLM withdrew alcohol from economy class, the passengers voted with their bookings, and KLM felt compelled to reintroduce alcohol again.
Austrian withdrew complimentary food and beverages, like SAS, I didn't mind that so much, because it was available for purchase, whether it be a pizza slice or a prawn sandwich and one wasn't restricted to one miniature beer, if one was paying for it then one could have 2 or 3, I don't mind paying for food and drink providing that it is of quality and heated or chilled appropriately, and it is reflected in the cost of the ticket, Austrian subsequently reintroduced complimentary food and beverages obviously due to passengers voting with their bookings.
Not that I have flown with BA for some 4 years, not since they flew me back from AMS with the gear down much of the way due to some silly sod overfuelling it, but how do they get away with, under trading standards etc, claiming to be the world's favourite airline?
There was a time that KLM withdrew alcohol from economy class, the passengers voted with their bookings, and KLM felt compelled to reintroduce alcohol again.
Austrian withdrew complimentary food and beverages, like SAS, I didn't mind that so much, because it was available for purchase, whether it be a pizza slice or a prawn sandwich and one wasn't restricted to one miniature beer, if one was paying for it then one could have 2 or 3, I don't mind paying for food and drink providing that it is of quality and heated or chilled appropriately, and it is reflected in the cost of the ticket, Austrian subsequently reintroduced complimentary food and beverages obviously due to passengers voting with their bookings.
Not that I have flown with BA for some 4 years, not since they flew me back from AMS with the gear down much of the way due to some silly sod overfuelling it, but how do they get away with, under trading standards etc, claiming to be the world's favourite airline?
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Lufthansa used to have a little stand in the departure area where pax coud take whatever they wanted for the flight, from a selection of sandwiches, fruit, yoghurts, cooldrinks, and so on. They then popped into into a little carrier bag and took it on board.
This stunningly simple idea saved weight and cabin crew time, avoided waste, and allowed pax to get what they wanted. I often wonder why this did not become more widespread.
This stunningly simple idea saved weight and cabin crew time, avoided waste, and allowed pax to get what they wanted. I often wonder why this did not become more widespread.
Paxing All Over The World
Phileas Fogg
They no longer do and have not done for many years. If I recall correctly, it was based on the number of international pax carried, as folks like AA carry more but mainly internal.
This change is either sensible or another of the 'thousand cuts' to make up their death. (The thread about possible downgrading of BA Miles is another example, if proved correct) I tend to agree with the suggestion that this is a preamble to reducing CC on SH. However, the point I repeat periodically is that - BA are in the last pahse of their existence and that is only natural. In one form or another, they have been going since the 1920s and not many large companies can sustain themselves that long. All the ususal human forces will bring about their close. The only point of debate is how they will meet their close and when. I say this with no glee or truimph.
but how do they get away with, under trading standards etc, claiming to be the world's favourite airline?
This change is either sensible or another of the 'thousand cuts' to make up their death. (The thread about possible downgrading of BA Miles is another example, if proved correct) I tend to agree with the suggestion that this is a preamble to reducing CC on SH. However, the point I repeat periodically is that - BA are in the last pahse of their existence and that is only natural. In one form or another, they have been going since the 1920s and not many large companies can sustain themselves that long. All the ususal human forces will bring about their close. The only point of debate is how they will meet their close and when. I say this with no glee or truimph.
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Not offering sandwiches in economy will not have the slightest affect on whether pax choose to fly with BA or not and it most certainly will not bring the company to bankruptcy.
Why should it? other carriers do not offer free sandwiches and their aircraft are full.
People usually travel on the ailines that offer the cheapest fares, from the most conveninet airports at the most convenient times.
I find it hard to believe that some people think all the pax in the tourist cabins of BA short haul aircraft are only there for the sandwiches.
I am a regular pax and notice a lot of pax refuse the sandwiches.
It is crazy anyone thinks people will go out of their way to fly with other airlines from remote airport at sometimes dreadful departure times just because they will not get a free sandwich with BA.
One can always buy a sandwich in the airport and after all you also have to pay for them on the LCC's. at least drinks will be free on BA unlike they are on the LCC's.
Why should it? other carriers do not offer free sandwiches and their aircraft are full.
People usually travel on the ailines that offer the cheapest fares, from the most conveninet airports at the most convenient times.
I find it hard to believe that some people think all the pax in the tourist cabins of BA short haul aircraft are only there for the sandwiches.
I am a regular pax and notice a lot of pax refuse the sandwiches.
It is crazy anyone thinks people will go out of their way to fly with other airlines from remote airport at sometimes dreadful departure times just because they will not get a free sandwich with BA.
One can always buy a sandwich in the airport and after all you also have to pay for them on the LCC's. at least drinks will be free on BA unlike they are on the LCC's.
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Not mentioned so far is the reduction in quality and size of meals on long haul premiums cabins
Whilst a smaller 2nd meal and no chocs and canapes as they put it might seem trivial, the accountants appear not to have a clue about the knock on effects. Cheapen your premium product and you ultimately end up with a cheap product.
Whilst a smaller 2nd meal and no chocs and canapes as they put it might seem trivial, the accountants appear not to have a clue about the knock on effects. Cheapen your premium product and you ultimately end up with a cheap product.
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Buying food ---- No problem
Buying Beverage ---- No problem
Provided it reflects on the purchase price of the ticket.
Bad/unfriendly service ground up ----- Big Problem
Business goes where it is invited, but only stays where it is well treated!
12 trouble free years travelling on other carriers.
Buying Beverage ---- No problem
Provided it reflects on the purchase price of the ticket.
Bad/unfriendly service ground up ----- Big Problem
Business goes where it is invited, but only stays where it is well treated!
12 trouble free years travelling on other carriers.
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From my local, and my most convenient, international airport of BHX I will select my flights based on sociable schedules, then price, then quality of cabin service and then if I get points that don't expire after a period of time.
In this respect, when BACX operated from BHX I never flew with them once, I would always prefer to fly with Swiss, then KLM, then SAS or Lufthansa and with Air France bringing up the rear.
If Swiss were to withdraw the quality of cabin service then they would drop down the list, if KLM were still declining to serve alcohol, paid for or not, in economy class then they wouldn't even appear on the list, SAS charge for food and drink but their cabin service is good and if Lufthansa drop their 'quality' of service any lower then they'll be following behind Air France!
In this respect, when BACX operated from BHX I never flew with them once, I would always prefer to fly with Swiss, then KLM, then SAS or Lufthansa and with Air France bringing up the rear.
If Swiss were to withdraw the quality of cabin service then they would drop down the list, if KLM were still declining to serve alcohol, paid for or not, in economy class then they wouldn't even appear on the list, SAS charge for food and drink but their cabin service is good and if Lufthansa drop their 'quality' of service any lower then they'll be following behind Air France!
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And Iberia is rethinking serving again free catering on board. They probably have realized that cutting corners in this point means only marginal profits. Only when you have overprized food for purchase, you get huge big margins.
Of course I donīt mean that passengers need food (although for some itīs essential to keep them busy in flight), and of course passengers are not going to starve, or demand luxury trays with full meals, which make fight attandants to rush, but I donīt think itīs a good idea.
Itīs not really commercial. BA is not a low cost, and wonīt lower their prices in a regular basis, so I donīt think many passengers will understand this move. Market is market, and I am sure other airline will benefit from this.
People donīt normally choose an airline for the meals they serve in shorthaul, and many passengers donīt mind buying something at the terminal, but at the same price, same schedule, service makes the difference and in such a competitive markets, these cuts wonīt help at all to improve the annual turnover.
Of course I donīt mean that passengers need food (although for some itīs essential to keep them busy in flight), and of course passengers are not going to starve, or demand luxury trays with full meals, which make fight attandants to rush, but I donīt think itīs a good idea.
Itīs not really commercial. BA is not a low cost, and wonīt lower their prices in a regular basis, so I donīt think many passengers will understand this move. Market is market, and I am sure other airline will benefit from this.
People donīt normally choose an airline for the meals they serve in shorthaul, and many passengers donīt mind buying something at the terminal, but at the same price, same schedule, service makes the difference and in such a competitive markets, these cuts wonīt help at all to improve the annual turnover.
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Keltic
You make an excellent point.
The image of a business is crucially important to its strategic market positioning and to whether customers perceive it as being a good company to buy products or services from.
Whilst removing meals, in itself, is probably not the end of the world for customer service, it may well have a more subtle impact on perception and thus buying habits.
A company differentiating itself, e.g. the recent 'upgrade to British Airways' promotion may well be wise to leave the service provisions alone, as you suggest.
Otherwise it could become just another 'me too' supplier, in an oversupplied sector, with probably a larger higher cost base than someof the competition.
service makes the difference and in such a competitive markets, these cuts wonīt help at all to improve the annual turnover.
The image of a business is crucially important to its strategic market positioning and to whether customers perceive it as being a good company to buy products or services from.
Whilst removing meals, in itself, is probably not the end of the world for customer service, it may well have a more subtle impact on perception and thus buying habits.
A company differentiating itself, e.g. the recent 'upgrade to British Airways' promotion may well be wise to leave the service provisions alone, as you suggest.
Otherwise it could become just another 'me too' supplier, in an oversupplied sector, with probably a larger higher cost base than someof the competition.
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(many passengers donīt mind buying something at the terminal)
Precisely, but at the time when KLM economy was like a desert, and I attempted to drink the one beer I had bought with me I got bolloxed something rotten by the cabin crew.
Another time, I was flying with Lufthansa on a CRJ out of MUC, LH only serve a miniature (250ml) or beer, and in the MUC terminal, aware of LH's appalling cabin service, I had bought a couple of beers for the journey, it was the evening and quite a lengthy sector.
As soon as the cabin crew became aware I had my own beer they had an attitude problem and this continued throughout the flight and all I was doing, or was trying to do, was relax and wind down after a long day whilst looking forward to getting to my hotel.
Eventually, as we had just begun descent into our destination, the cabin crew, maintaining their attitude problem, demanded to take the beer from me as we were about to land, I hasten to add that I had already secured my tray table and my seat in the upright position.
Well, one knows when the gear comes down on a CRJ
and looking out of the window we were still at umpteen thousands of feet whilst the flaps remained up, by now I was fed up with the cabin crew attitude problem telling her "the wheels are up, the flaps are, up, we're still at umpteen thousands of feet so if we are about to land then you've got bigger problems than allowing me to finish off my beer!"
All this nonsense that we are not allowed to consume our own food or alcohol, well if they tried offering anything more that a snack and a 250ml can of beer then, perhaps, we wouldn't need to consume our own!
And as for BA, nothing has convinced me to fly with them for the past 4 (ish) years and I'm not reading anything here that persuades me to recommence flying with BA.
Precisely, but at the time when KLM economy was like a desert, and I attempted to drink the one beer I had bought with me I got bolloxed something rotten by the cabin crew.
Another time, I was flying with Lufthansa on a CRJ out of MUC, LH only serve a miniature (250ml) or beer, and in the MUC terminal, aware of LH's appalling cabin service, I had bought a couple of beers for the journey, it was the evening and quite a lengthy sector.
As soon as the cabin crew became aware I had my own beer they had an attitude problem and this continued throughout the flight and all I was doing, or was trying to do, was relax and wind down after a long day whilst looking forward to getting to my hotel.
Eventually, as we had just begun descent into our destination, the cabin crew, maintaining their attitude problem, demanded to take the beer from me as we were about to land, I hasten to add that I had already secured my tray table and my seat in the upright position.
Well, one knows when the gear comes down on a CRJ
and looking out of the window we were still at umpteen thousands of feet whilst the flaps remained up, by now I was fed up with the cabin crew attitude problem telling her "the wheels are up, the flaps are, up, we're still at umpteen thousands of feet so if we are about to land then you've got bigger problems than allowing me to finish off my beer!"All this nonsense that we are not allowed to consume our own food or alcohol, well if they tried offering anything more that a snack and a 250ml can of beer then, perhaps, we wouldn't need to consume our own!
And as for BA, nothing has convinced me to fly with them for the past 4 (ish) years and I'm not reading anything here that persuades me to recommence flying with BA.
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Mr Fogg, most airlines have no problem whatsoever with you consuming your own food and drink on the aircraft, but they do have a policy that forbids passengers consuming alcoholic beverages which they have brought on board themselves.
You might not agree with that rule, but that doesnīt change the fact that the rule is in place.
Flight Attendants who do not enforce the companyīs rules on board an aircraft, are not doing their job properly.
Not doing your job properly can lead to unpleasantness, disciplinary action and finally the loss of that job.
You call doing your job properly an īattitude problemī, I call it normal behaviour for anybody who likes their job and the steady (family) income it provides.
Flight Attendants who have flown for more than 3 months have all experienced first hand the endless amount of trouble caused by some clever passenger surreptitiously drinking their own booze on-board.
When a pax either buys/obtains for free, his alcohol from the FAs, we can try to avoid that person getting drunk. If he drinks his own, that is impossible. And people so keen on alcohol that they drink from their own stash are not usually the ones who will peacefully enjoy a couple of drinks and then snooze the rest of the way.
YOU might, but how representative is one Mr Fogg?
The attitude problem in your post is ascribed to the wrong person(s) Mr Fogg.
You might not agree with that rule, but that doesnīt change the fact that the rule is in place.
Flight Attendants who do not enforce the companyīs rules on board an aircraft, are not doing their job properly.
Not doing your job properly can lead to unpleasantness, disciplinary action and finally the loss of that job.
You call doing your job properly an īattitude problemī, I call it normal behaviour for anybody who likes their job and the steady (family) income it provides.
Flight Attendants who have flown for more than 3 months have all experienced first hand the endless amount of trouble caused by some clever passenger surreptitiously drinking their own booze on-board.
When a pax either buys/obtains for free, his alcohol from the FAs, we can try to avoid that person getting drunk. If he drinks his own, that is impossible. And people so keen on alcohol that they drink from their own stash are not usually the ones who will peacefully enjoy a couple of drinks and then snooze the rest of the way.
YOU might, but how representative is one Mr Fogg?
The attitude problem in your post is ascribed to the wrong person(s) Mr Fogg.
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flapsforty,
There is a way, an attitude that may be adopted, when fulfilling one's duties and when I say I experienced attitude problems I mean precisely that. One can politely ask one not to consume their own alcohol, that one has only brought with them because they know that only one 250ml can of beer will be served on board, but when one is spoken with such an attitude, a customer is spoken to with such an attitude, then it puts one's back up.
There is nothing unlawful about one consuming one's own alcohol providing that one doesn't endanger the safe operation of that aircraft, if the airline want to monitor one's level of alcohol comsumption then they should make alcohol available, paid for or otherwise, and if they do have such a condition of travel then it should be inclued in the terms & conditions at the time one is booking, which it is/was not!
If I want to experience a p1ss poor customer relations experience then I can travel with an Irish LCC but when I choose to fly with national flag carriers, travelling on business, then I expect improved upon customer relations, we all have a choice of how we may choose to carry out our duties, with an attitude or with a smile, and I have a preference for the latter.
There is a way, an attitude that may be adopted, when fulfilling one's duties and when I say I experienced attitude problems I mean precisely that. One can politely ask one not to consume their own alcohol, that one has only brought with them because they know that only one 250ml can of beer will be served on board, but when one is spoken with such an attitude, a customer is spoken to with such an attitude, then it puts one's back up.
There is nothing unlawful about one consuming one's own alcohol providing that one doesn't endanger the safe operation of that aircraft, if the airline want to monitor one's level of alcohol comsumption then they should make alcohol available, paid for or otherwise, and if they do have such a condition of travel then it should be inclued in the terms & conditions at the time one is booking, which it is/was not!
If I want to experience a p1ss poor customer relations experience then I can travel with an Irish LCC but when I choose to fly with national flag carriers, travelling on business, then I expect improved upon customer relations, we all have a choice of how we may choose to carry out our duties, with an attitude or with a smile, and I have a preference for the latter.
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If you want to be heinous and drink two cans of beer on your flight you better not fly a 'full service' airline anymore as getting that second can is like pulling teeth.
You get far better service on the Irish LCC you mention as all you need to do is wait for the frequent cabin crew trips down the aisle (remember when you got those on full service airlines??) and ask for a can of beer. It will cost a couple of quid, but then that's what beer costs in a pub, or a cross channel ferry, or a train, so no idea why it should be any different on a plane.
You do indeed get far better service on a LCC if you quite reasonably like to drink a few beers on your flight.
And depending on the registry of the aircraft, it can be illegal to drink your own booze on board. It's illegal to be 'drunk' on an aircraft, which of course depends on the definition of 'drunk'. In some places it means being over the drink drive limit.
You get far better service on the Irish LCC you mention as all you need to do is wait for the frequent cabin crew trips down the aisle (remember when you got those on full service airlines??) and ask for a can of beer. It will cost a couple of quid, but then that's what beer costs in a pub, or a cross channel ferry, or a train, so no idea why it should be any different on a plane.
You do indeed get far better service on a LCC if you quite reasonably like to drink a few beers on your flight.
And depending on the registry of the aircraft, it can be illegal to drink your own booze on board. It's illegal to be 'drunk' on an aircraft, which of course depends on the definition of 'drunk'. In some places it means being over the drink drive limit.
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Many countries have legislation forbidding the consumption of pax brought alcohol. A few examples:
Canadian Aviation Regulation (CAR) 602.04(2)(a) states in part..."No person shall consume on board an aircraft an intoxicating liquor unless the intoxicating liquor (a) has been served to that person by the operator of the aircraft..."
Australian Government Civil Aviation Authority: The only alcohol you may consume on board an aircraft is that which is provided by the cabin crew. You are not permitted to consume your own alcohol once you have boarded the aircraft.
(Conditions of Carriage: a civil agreement that govern the relationship between you as a Passenger and the Carrier regarding passenger carriage on an aircraft pursuant to a ticket on which an Airline Designator Code appears for that flight or flight segment. Passenger rights and duties towards the airline and vice versa in this matter are outlined in the Conditions of Carriage. We advise passengers to read the Conditions of Carriage carefully)
You buy a ticket and thereby agree to abide by the conditions of carriage.
You are automatically subject to the law governing air transport.
You then board an aircraft and proceed to drink your own beer.
The initial fault is yours Mr Fogg.
You behaved in a manner (by drinking your own) that has caused most FAs endless amounts of grief in the course of their career, and in a manner which is both against the law and against the conditions of carriage.
You then accuse the FAs of having an attitude problem.
YOU Mr Fogg put yourself in a position where you break the law and are rightly considered by most FAs as a direct threat to the orderly and safe execution of the flight.
No amount of obfuscation will change that.
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Flaps Forty
Let me set you a little scenario.
You are a pax on a 3 hour flight, where the service in your cabin includes an open bar.
The cabin crew decide to implement industrial action and withold the bar service completely. They announce this after takeoff, so you do not have the option of changing to another airline.
You have your own duty free vodka with you.
Do you either
(a) replace the three mini bottles of wine that you would normally take with three small glasses of your own vodka, relaxe, enjoy the flight and write it down to experience
or
(b) drink only soft drinks and then sue the airline for breach of contract?
Let me set you a little scenario.
You are a pax on a 3 hour flight, where the service in your cabin includes an open bar.
The cabin crew decide to implement industrial action and withold the bar service completely. They announce this after takeoff, so you do not have the option of changing to another airline.
You have your own duty free vodka with you.
Do you either
(a) replace the three mini bottles of wine that you would normally take with three small glasses of your own vodka, relaxe, enjoy the flight and write it down to experience
or
(b) drink only soft drinks and then sue the airline for breach of contract?