Ryanair passenger charter - more lies!

[jimworcs]

Ryanair have trained you well "Based"

Ryanair have lowered your expectations to such an extent (or you work for them and have bought their nonsense hook, line and sinker), that you genuinely seem to believe that it is fine to oversell because you can hop on one later. As said above, it is rubbish, not all flight routes have more than one flight a day. It is just a ridiculous argument and totally one-sided. If the passenger, on the other hand, turned up late and said oh, I thought this was like a train and I could just hop on one later, do you think Ryanair would give them a sympathetic hearing? MOL has set up a company which treats it's customers with contempt and hostility. The model worked as long as he was able to open up new point to point routes very cheaply with no competition. Competitors are nipping at his heals, the economy is not looking so good and MOL has committed Ryanair to massive capacity increases which are coming regardless of demand. Meanwhile, EZ are able to get more per seat and compete on a low cost model which offers at least a basic level of customer service. MOL will come unstuck.. and Ryanair will be having problems within 18 months. MOL will retire with his millions, and the new broom will push up prices and emphasise customer service and acknowledge they had gone too far. I challenge you to re-read this post in 18 months time and see how much has come true.

[Based]

What if it happens at an airport where there is only one flight per day or, it's the last flight of the day?

As said above, it is rubbish, not all flight routes have more than one flight a day. It is just a ridiculous argument and totally one-sided.

Lads, do I have to spell it out for you, it doesn't happen in these situations - there's no side taking involved here. I mean are you actually categorically stating you know of a situation where it has?

you genuinely seem to believe that it is fine to oversell because you can hop on one later.

Yes I do, but then so does the entire aviation world! The best part about all this is that it's a very rare event with Ryanair (and essentially all low cost short haul airlines for that matter) and much more common with just about every long haul carrier for example.

Given your perceived bitterness towards the minute possibility of it happening with Ryanair jimworcs, I'm assuming the likes of long haul air travel, where you often have no other option but to wait for the same flight the next day, is something you stay well clear off given the emotional disturbance it could cause.

Going back to initial reason for this thread, it's not that I'm defending what is stated in the passenger charter and saying it's absolutely true, I'm just saying that overbooking is a very rare event with Ryanair and probably one of the last things you should be getting worked up about. Let's put it this way, there's probably more likelihood of you getting a refund for an unused flight than you ever experiencing overbooking!!

[jimworcs]

You keep comparing overselling in a low cost with what goes on in the long haul legacy carriers. It is not comparable. Long haul legacy carriers sell tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available. This class of ticket means that the carrier can expect a number of guaranteed no shows, and there is reciprocal rights. The passenger can "no show" and still get on a later flight, and the carrier can "over sell" based on an analysis of flight usage. In addition, these tickets are interchangeable with other carriers providing the passenger considerably more options. Low cost carriers who over sell seats are effectively committing fraud. They are selling seats that are simply not available, and the thread started with a Ryanair ex employee whistleblowing to that effect and exposing the fact that Ryanair are liars. You can continue to defend the practice until the cows come home, but you can be sure of one thing.. you are defending the indefensible.

[Based]

You keep comparing overselling in a low cost with what goes on in the long haul legacy carriers.

My last post was the first time I did so.

Long haul legacy carriers sell tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available.

Long haul legacy carriers sell some tickets which allow the passenger to turn up and get on any flight with a seat available. They also sell quite a few tickets that don't yet they are also still perfectly entitled to deny these passengers boarding due to overbooking. How does this fit into your somewhat flawed logic?

[slip and turn]

Yes Based, you seem to be flying in the face of reason. You seem also to be making a point that Ryanair hasn't stranded passengers, yet they courted notoriety both before EU Regulation 261/2004 regarding cancellation and delay compensation, and after it became effective 17 February 2005.

Not that I have heard of it being as a result of overbooking of course, but I think some of the strandings have resulted in 48 hour delays for planeloads of people even on routes with 2 or more flights per day.

There is also the nonsense of failing to give customers any incentive whatsoever to notify the airline when a ticket is no longer required. And the further nonsense of splashing so many 1p flights around that many customers now seem to use them as a hedge against delays on their original bookings, or indeed simply to give themselves the marvellous almost zero cost flexibility of turning up to any one of a number of flights but totally discarding the rest!

I have also often wondered if their "Web Check'nGo" boarding card printout facility enables someone to enter the departure lounge with a pocketful of inkjeted boarding cards (any of today's date seems to get you through security - not even your passport is checked at Stansted until boarding).

Once through, I imagine you could give those you don't fancy using to anyone you meet so they could chance their arm on a rushed boarding to anywhere! That's what it looks like - could be wrong of course.

This seems to be the opposite extreme to the T5 Fingerprint idea, with one extreme sponsored by Ryanair, and the other by BA!

Mind you, at least the simple model seems to get more people AND their baggage where they want to go at the time they want to be there , notwithstanding that one group must surely contain more illegals?

But with the chaos reigning at T5 tonight I imagine if anyone was mad enough still to be there, they could talk their way into any queue they liked...

The mind boggles.

[jimworcs]

Flawed logic

My flawed logic is that if a carrier sells 20% of its tickets on a fully exchangeable, fully refundable basis and on past experience 5% of passengers on the flight are "no shows", they are entitled to oversell on that basis, providing they are then prepared to take care of any customers who are inconvenienced. By "take care" of them I mean, book them onto another route, even with another carrier if necessary, offer vouchers or refund for the inconvience and a hotel if an overnight or extended stay is needed. I had this situation arise in Hong Kong with BA. BA booked me onto Virgin to get me home the same day, paid £200 compensation and I got to London 40 minutes later than originally scheduled. Ryanair never do these things, and if the Ryanair whisteblower who started this thread is to be believed, they concoct fake stories to try avoid any responsibility for their actions. Certainly, on the two occassions that Ryanair stranded me, it was impossible for them to "take care" of the passengers because they had absolutely no representatives on the ground who had any clue what was happening. On one occassion in Milan, the one person at the desk, pulled down the shutters at midnight in Milan Bergamo and started to leave. When stranded passengers demanded she stay and help the passengers who were the victim of the cancellation, she called the police and left the building under their escort. It is on this flawed logic that I conclude that legacy carriers who behave as I have just described can oversell, whereas low costs cannot.

While we are at it, and in a spirit of openness, can you tell us whether you work for Ryanair or have any association with the company? I would also recommend that you read the threads in Skytrax to read stories of people who have flown Ryanair, and are clearly making up stories of being stranded and lied to by the company. What is remarkable about these obviously made up horror stories is their consistency... and there are so many more of them than any other carrier. I wonder why?

[Based]

My flawed logic is that if a carrier sells 20% of its tickets on a fully exchangeable, fully refundable basis and on past experience 5% of passengers on the flight are "no shows", they are entitled to oversell on that basis, providing they are then prepared to take care of any customers who are inconvenienced.

At least we're making some progress in your acceptance that it's flawed logic. Lets be clear here, Ryanair are legally entitled to oversell flights if they so wish. Your earlier suggestion of fraud is quite amusing. You're statement above is simply your opinion on how the aviation world should operate, not the current reality.

When stranded passengers demanded she stay and help the passengers who were the victim of the cancellation, she called the police and left the building under their escort..

You're continually shifting the terms of reference here. We're talking specifically about overselling seats in this thread and whether Ryanair do so or not - cancellations is a completely separate issue which has been discussed to death on other threads.

It is on this flawed logic that I conclude that legacy carriers who behave as I have just described can oversell, whereas low costs cannot.

Again your personal opinion, not the legal reality.

While we are at it, and in a spirit of openness, can you tell us whether you work for Ryanair or have any association with the company?

I don’t believe it’s a relevant question but in your spirit of openness, no, I do not work for Ryanair. I suppose my association is using them fairly regularly as a passenger taking advantage of only their genuinely low cost fares while tending to use other airlines when fares are similar or where I need a flexible ticket.

Again can we be clear, I'm not globally defending Ryanair here - we're talking specifically about the issue of overselling seats. They don’t generally and as I’ve stated already - there's probably more likelihood of you getting a refund for an unused flight than you ever experiencing overbooking so it’s one thing about Ryanair that you shouldn’t bother getting worked up about.

I would also recommend that you read the threads in Skytrax to read stories of people who have flown Ryanair, and are clearly making up stories of being stranded and lied to by the company.

I’ll gladly read any relevant threads in Skytrax relating to overselling but it’s hard to find any. I know that many passengers (still a very small number in the context of total passengers carried) have been left facing ridiculously long waits to get to their destination but that's the risk you run with low cost air travel I guess - and more importantly has generally nothing to do with overselling! I assume the argument that fares aren't always cheap with low cost carriers will enter your mind while reading this but I'm afraid I don't have any real sympathy for passengers willing to pay Ryanair anything but low fare prices!

Overall my impression in your last post is that you’re expecting Ryanair to provide the same standard of customer service as other ‘full fare’ airlines. I don’t but that doesn’t mean I agree with all their policies either – their overbooking practices however are perfectly reasonable as far as I’m concerned and I've yet to be provided with any reason why I should think otherwise. Ryanair certainly isn’t above criticism but don’t criticise problems that aren’t there! I’ll leave you to have the last word.

[TotalBeginner]

Ryanair are legally entitled to oversell flights if they so wish.

This thread wasn't to dispute their legal right to oversell. It was to discuss the fact that they are making false advertising statements.

in your spirit of openness, no, I do not work for Ryanair. I suppose my association is using them fairly regularly as a passenger

we're talking specifically about the issue of overselling seats. They don’t generally

If you're not an FR employee, you have absolutely no idea to what degree overselling is practiced. Granted, the likelyhood of being denied boarding by Ryanair is low. However, overselling is commonly practiced and is not reserved to a "small minority" of flights as you claim!

[rothin]

I would also recommend that you read the threads in Skytrax

I'm not sure I'd trust anything on Skytrax. They censor or edit contributions and have still not published any complaints about T5 after 4 days of BA/BAA chaos.
I think Skytrax is a viral advertising campaign with quite transparent objectives.

[al446]

Thank you total beginner for getting back to the thread subject, whether FR is falsely advertising (aka lying through their teeth) or not. I get the impression they are. But could be wrong (in case sue, grabbit & runne are reading)