Spot on emu787 :D.

IMO the crew did things well that night and other things not so well - obviously. There was bad luck that night but alot of good luck.
Having worked for Pelair I fear for the two pilots involved. Painted as hero's last week, out in the cold this week, let's see.
IMO I think the pilots are to a degree a reflection of the culture of the company they work for. (some will disagree but it's reality) Legally and all that they arn't. I can't help but think decisions made on the night would'nt be that of a person who wasn't under some other pressure's. Hopefully this will also be investigated.
IMO Pelair do things well, but other things not so well - this I think is where the resulting investigation should eventually focus.
Shall be interesting to read what media statements (if any) are released this week.

I know some of you guys will take a shot at this comment, but why does an aircraft of this nature in this day not have something like a G430/530? (actually a G495 hand held would be better, as it gives you a G/S and used in conjunction with the 430). Do they have radar altimeters in the W/W?

Few pages back a a couple of us suggested pushing the minima a little in "emergency" situations, well if you look at the offsets for a VOR approach they are far from runway aligned so no chance of pushing below, if they were only doing a DME arrival the minima is around 1200AGL :eek:.

Now look at a RNAV RWY11.......runway aligned.....with two pilots, split the worload and follw three degrees all the way......monitor your progress very carefully and chances are they would have been visual well before the runway. Sure beats the odds on ditching or stooging around in the dark and accidental ditching. Sure breaking a few rules, but far safer in my opinion.

How deep is the water? http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/scubdiv.gif

Try this;
http://www.cmar.csiro.au/e-print/ope...h_Paper_31.pdf

Thanks CheckerBoard for answering very succinctly in your following post.



Jabawocky wrote
Couldn't agree with you more. Even the VOR app would be preferable since the VOR is sited right near the threshold of RW11.
However, it would have been dicey as there is a cliff face not very far behind.
As many have pointed out, the splashdown was always preferable to trying to shift the cliff.

Beggar's choice really. :{

Were they carrying the patients husband? If so, this would be a charter operation, not Aerial work.

Back in 2000 I did some work for an AOC holder who was conducting operations to "Remote Islands"
Our OM had 15 pages of flight planning data covering every conceivable situation.

One paragraph stated
The operation was subject to an Instrument of Approval from CASA and was specific to particular aeroplanes by registration. I cannot remember why the operation was subject to approval by CASA as the CAO does not state approval is required only that the minimum fuel may be subject to direction by CASA. There may have been a requirement in a schedule to the AOC to have approval. Refer to 28BBof the Act.

Posts on this thread have referred to the ASTB involvement. Would not the NZ CAA be the investigating Authority.

Norfolk Island became an an Australian Territory in 1914 and is administered under the Norfolk Island Act 1979, which provides for an Administrator as nominal head of the Norfolk Island Government, a Norfolk Island Legislative Assembly and a Norfolk Island Supreme Court oversighting the Island's legal system (derived from NSW and the UK). The Island's constitutional status is similar to that of the mainland Territories; the major difference is that the Island Government and Legislative Assembly have greater powers and responsibilities, including scope for enacting laws on matters that elsewhere are the preserve of the Federal Government (such as customs, quarantine and immigration).
Whereas Lord Howe island is actually part of NSW.

ZEEBEE

the VOR is actually at the threshold of runway 04. If one was to follow the the runway 11 VOR (offset) approach to below the minima to the extent as being suggested the result would have been ugly.

WRT RNAV approach (not the SCAT RNAV), the plate notes that it was a new procedure and was dated 19th of November (amendment 121). The ditching happened on the 18th of November didn't it.

Was the RNAV approach available in any amendment prior to amd 121?

ATSB would have some function as the aircraft was Australian but who controls the airspace as far as aviation goes?

Norfolk Hawk WELCOME ABOARD and thanks for your input. I found it very valuable in assessing what went on.

I agree that the real heros were the Airport manager and whoever else went out to perform the rescue. That was the thing that required skill and courage. Inadvertent controlled flight into water takes no skill at all(nor heroism).

Norfolk Hawk I might have talked to you 20 years ago and more as I operated the NAC F27 into Norfolk from the inception of the operation and subsequently the Air New Zealand B737 for a few years.

Thanks again for your post.

Folks,
The "original" concept was "Island Holding", and was a "get out jail" card for the conduct if operations where there was no practical alternate, given all the circumstances of the operation, mostly the limited performance of the aircraft, if any commercial load was to be possible.

In years gone by, Qantas had a fuel policy that made extensive use of "island holding". In "those days", none of the Pacific or Indian Ocean services would have been possible without "Island Holding". With current large airline aircraft, the need to invoke Island Holding to enable a commercial operation has become less and less.

At one stage, at least two airlines (one AU, one foreign) had a fuel policy that had Perth as an equivalent of Island Holding, due to the then lack of practical alternates that could take their aircraft, before APLM became available.

The matter of the CAO much discussed here has a somewhat different genesis, and appeared as an aftermath of the Seaview Inquiry. The intent of the CAO was to eliminate certain operations to Norfolk and Lord Howe.

In my opinion, it failed in its specific intent (the particular operator continued), in part because it is so bloody complicated. A typical output of the CASA Office of Legal Counsel of the day.

If there is to be a law that mandates alternates for particular destinations, regardless of any other consideration, it should not be written so that it is able to be debated, as to its meaning.

All too typical of much Australian aviation law.

Tootle pip!!

Andu, i've heard that there was less than the fixed reserve in the tanks. (30mins for turbines isnt it?).
Enough to basically say "the water and thats it".

As for the time between not getting in on the last approach and putting it in the water, bugger all.

Gnd Power

Thanks for the clarification, it's been some time since I was there and they were just installing the new Doppler VOR on one of my last trips.

Can't answer the question re the RNAV prior to Nov 19, but someone who does the run and has the docs could.

And yes, the offset 11 wouldn't be pretty BUT putting the machine into an unknown swell (They're mostly big around NF) with dubious chances of getting a boat out that didn't know where the aircraft was, isn't a nice scenario either.

It may well be that a deliberate ditching may not have worked out as well as what appears to be an unintentional one.

I do love the difference between the media and PPrune!

Media

Hero pilot saves 6 passengers with successful night ditching.

PPrune

Reckless pilot has a CFIT accident in an unprepared ditching

Hope I never make a mistake and get put through the wringers on here!!

C'mon GG......... get with the spirit! :}

You know the heroes were the folk in the boat that went to save them from being part of a marine food chain!

Big bities hang around there.....and the swell against the rocks just tenderises the meal a little first! :uhoh:

From the current Norfolk Online: (Welcome to Norfolk Online)


Hi Folks,

I guess we will eventually read the ATSB report but I might be able to offer an answer to the question "why
was this aircraft so low on fuel?" To begin with he
probably wasn't low on fuel when he arrived at Norfolk.
Lets assume he had mandatory reserves on board. This
amount of fuel would be Fixed Reserve (30 minutes of
flying in a jet) plus any Variable Reserve (usually 10%
of flight fuel, call it 10% extra on route fuel to get
to NLK from Samoa). How long does it take to fly between
Samoa and NLK? It is 1450nm from Apia to NLK which
probably means about 3.5hrs of flying.
Therefore 10% of route fuel is another 21 minutes worth.
Result is total 51 minutes of fuel on board before the
first approach to be legal. Any extra
fuel is a bonus!
Each approach could take 10-12 minutes to fly on
average. Therefore 3 attempts to get in will have used
at least 30 minutes worth of fuel and
possibly 40 minutes worth. This means somewhere between
10 and 20 minutes of fuel left. What does a crew do with
this? Well my humble opinion is (after 13,600hrs flying)
that you use it to complete some sort of emergency
landing under full control and not wait until the gas is
gone and you are forced into the same decision. A
prepared ditching is far more survivable than an
unprepared one. All on board need briefing in the little
time left plus the cabin needs preparation for the
ditching and evacuation that will follow. Add extreme
stress (am I going to die soon?) and this can be a very
unpleasant time.
The result we know .. a ditching, a successful
evacuation and they were all rescued. My greatest
congratulations to the pilots for the best outcome. And
they ditched at night which vastly reduces the chances
of a safe water landing & survival. Double congrats from
me! I wonder which Westwind it was?
Cheers, Paul (Paul is a Pilot )


Now I understand.......:eek:

A side issue
 

I believe that the main issue of planning, or lack there off has already been discussed to death here. That aside, the ditching was 10/10 :ok:.

The issue of his so-called good looks is an equally important issue. Sure, go ahead an persecute the pooor bastard for operational decisions.....but for his looks??

I too suffer descrimination in the workplace and around the airfield on a daily basis because of my extremely good looks. Surrounded by guys (and some gals) who have heads like dropped pies is not easy.... in fact I try to tell myself that they must have really big trouser snakes to compensate, but still, it's not easy. :sad: Some days I look at my full sized trusty mirror and tell myself I'm fugly just so I can endure the hours ahead.

Please dont' hate us for our good looks. :(

Yours exceptionally attractive and well hung.

The RNAV - Y approaches for Rw 04, 11 and 29 are all shown as new procedures eff 19th November2009.

Are the Pelair aircraft able to RNAV approaches and are the crews qualified.

crossing climb
You forgot Norfolk is a remote island. I'm not going to elaborate because there have been plenty of posts on here on how much fuel the PIC should have been carrying.:ugh:

Hey ONETRACK

P/A is looking for Tom. Check out the AFAPP jobs for Nov 13th advert.


Any EGPWS on W/W
Any RadALT?

Fuel required...........
 

Bo777:

I hadn't forgotten.

My last post was a piece I read on the Norfolk Online website.

The author claims to have 13000 hours.

It possibly explains why some pilots will go there with mindbogglingly small amounts of fuel and then run out shortly after arriving, in a quietly heroic way. :ugh::ugh:

Where is the F/O? How come she is not standing there dripping wet still in her slides? (With chest exposed)? It seems like one big monumental stuff up, from word go, a pax seriously ill that can tread water for 40 mins, only 3 life jackets, no mayday, no position call, and the greatest sin of any pilot, be they private or commercial, not enough gas. Add to that the loss of a perfectly servicable aircraft, that contains specialist medical equipment, and it all leaves most of us scratching our heads. However as in all accidents, you have to be there, and that young bloke did what most of us would dread, and did it well, will be interesting to hear final report.:confused:

Paul is a scary pilot
 

I hope I never have to sit in a plane behind paul the pilot, one thing he forgot to mention is that the Variable reserve can be re-calculated en-route so the plane only needs to arrive with the 30mins fuel in his estimation...

I personally would prefer to arrive with fuel for an alternate when the weather is forecast to be below the alternate minimum, as is required at any aerodrome, ignoring the remote island requirements all together.

if you chew to much fuel on the way you divert to your alternate before you get there.

this is in my humble opinion (I only have 8000hrs though so what would I know?)

CC
sorry my bad.

Stol_King.
I too am having problems with the aviation legends that inhabit my employers pilots room. It would seem that the size of my appendage (which has its own postcode, day care centre and starring role in the next Tarantino film you know) coupled with my outrageous good looks is contributing to a situation where it's just not fun to go to work anymore.:{
I've tried everything you know but these Australian flyboys just won't accept me unless I agree to have facial surgery that leaves me looking like a surprised version of Michael Caton, electric shock therapy that should leave me with intellectual ability of a confused roadsign as well as signing an agreement that limits my clothes and basic shopping needs to the geographical confines of Blacktown City (southern side):*
Whats a lad to do???
Please help......I don't think I can take this torture any longer:(

Spent a year or so flying out to NLK in an RPT 737. Have held for an hour or so, diverted after one approach, etc...both NWWW and AKL and even returned to BNE.

Have seen the WX deteriorate in less than 20 minutes to below the minima, when not even forecast.

About the only constant on that rock is the quality of the service and information given by the CTAF radio operator, the tenacity of the people and the inherent island guts as shown by the rescue crew.

If you have ever seen the NLK reefs, the boat launching crane and the seas that are ever present, you will know what I mean.

I hope next Australia Day I see those guys that were in the launch that night are on the podium for a medal.

Looks like REX and Pel-Air are in for a whipping.

CASA begins special safety audits of Pel-Air & REX – Plane Talking

doleque - having been to NLK many times as well I totally agree with your sediments in relation to the rescue crew. Talk about heros and having large 'coconuts', launching the boat in those conditions after seeing sea conditions at Norfolk first hand, and the launch locations, and then having the airport manager after everything else not only organise but crew the boat - says a lot for the kind of people out at Norfolk.

Glenn and 'Pinky' before him have had nothing but respect from everyone i've even spoken to who has operated out to Norfolk for their professionalism, the Kentia-link PA31 incident Pinky had a very large involvement in the safe termination of that flight.

The sea out there is angry on a nice day let alone when it turns to crap - then add night along with it, lesser people would have refused to launch in those conditions and would have sealed a different fate of the occupants.

I do agree and hope the correct people nominate all involved for bravery awards for an amazing rescue.

This ditching occured not even 1 week ago.

The amount of **** that some people claim to know about why/when/how this event occured is amazing.

Guys/girls (aka 'f-cking know it all's') out there, pull your heads in and stop claiming to know more than you actually really do.

For those of you that have already jumped up and down putting the boots into the operating crew, have a close look at yourself. You weren't there on the night conducting approach after approach. Nor were you there in planning stages of the flight when it comes down to fuel requirements, alternate choices, etc. Therefore, at these very early stages of the investigation, why don't you let the cat bite your little bullsh-t wagging tounges and not fill this thread with crap.

puff

don't forget the others on the rock that would also have had the wherewithal as well, ie Larry the Harley rider, Dave, Cheryl and all from the "shed" etc etc.

Hard place to get to, but these guys all helped it happen with their intimate wx knowledge and radio assistance.

Not bad for a group of people that descend from those that stole a HMS ship and got an island as a reward.:ok:

Thanks guys...and as a well know Aussie boxer would say, "I luvs you all"..

Gunger

The facts as reported speak for themselves....An operational aircraft RAN OUT OF FUEL.

There really isn't any way out of that.

If it didn't, then it had no business being at sea level.

Everything else that happened may be debated, but a prudent skipper (and every pilot should be...that's what you ultimately get paid for) would not have let the situation deteriorate to where the only option is to emulate a flying boat.

I suggest you cool down and moderate your language. Maybe a long walk off a short pier might help :E

Gunger, the discerning reader of this thread will have come to the following conclusions,
1. A serviceable aircraft was parked at a level below the Mean Low Water Springs Tidal level
2. No mayday or other communication was given regarding a possible ditching ergo ditching was unintentional ergo CFIT
3. It follows from 2. that no exceptional skill was necessary in the fortuitous outcome
4. On the face of apparent evidence the aircraft was not carrying the necessary fuel as mandated by my reading of the regs.
5. None of the foregoing is criticism of the operating crew since so many other factors come into play eg training, pressure from management, experience
6. I could agree with ZB's erudite "a long walk off a short pier might help", but assume you have the crews interests at heart. The necessary information is there for a reasonable conclusion to be made, and I would be surprised if there were to be too many surprises in the official report (my conclusion). Much is made of the Kangaroo Court attitude of some on these threads, and some do come across that way, but the discerning aviator, whether they be amateur or professional, only have an interest in learning how a fellow practitioner of the art managed to come to grief. We are all fallible.

Does anyone here know that for a fact? Both engines flamed out?

Not run out of fuel in the sense the tanks were dry, but no fuel to exercise options ie get to an alternate. Seems to be CFIT (if one were to take a bet).

Doleque;
We luv you too, ahh those were the days in the shed were fantastic ;). She was a night that we will never forget when VH-NGA went for a dip. Everything worked like clock work in the recovery of the 6 POB missing for that brief moment. Local knowledge was a big factor and with all those involved in the rescue, their knowledge was priceless. But I must make a very special mention, the Duty Unicom Operator, his name is Larry. His contribution from the first radio contact with VH-NAG, right to the very end, was outstanding. :D

From Flight Safety magazine

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...y/19309272.jpg

doleque, puff - good words and my sentiments exactly.

Happy to wait for the report to come out - to those of you insisting on 'no speculation', most reasonable folk can decipher the truth from the fiction - so there's certainly no harm done in learning a few good lessons (or indeed reminders) some time ahead of the official report.

But back to my point - having lived on the island as a 'guest', and spent the best years of my life with the locals - I have no doubt that these guys are truly heroes. Measured and reserved, reasonable yet determined, the only reason there were no deaths that night was the heroism shown by the rescuers - like others, I will be supporting their nomination for Australians of the Year.

Is it just me or is having an ex government minister as CEO for Pel Air, when they are going for all these government contracts a bit dodgy as I'm sure the ex minister still has friends in high places!??

I'm thinking that this bloke is anything but up himself!!!
If fact.......I'd be putting forward the notion that he's more than capable of taking the piss out of himself and the industry to boot!:E