Reasonably close to Nadi?
 

Going via Nadi would have added 67nm to the trip; going via Nuku'alofa would have added 68nm to the trip; going via Suva would have added only 40nm to the trip (equivalent to less than 2 holding patterns).

Nadi as a fuel stop???????

but that would just mean that he would have to run out of fuel on his way to melbourne, you cant plan a flight from norfolk to melbourne with a headwind in a westwind.

there was nothing wrong with using YSNF as a fuel stop, that should not be the focus, the focus should be on the fact that he didnt have enough fuel to make it to NWWW from norfolk!

its all easy in hind site, I have had winds a lot stronger than forecast out in the pacific as well, however with that in mind and the fact that the weather was consistently bad at YSNF for the entire time of the flight, that should have been enough to get the crew to change tack and divert to Noumea earlier.

I still cant believe anyone would continue to YSNF with the metars that were there, especially if they new they wouldnt have the fuel to divert if they didnt get in.

lets just sit back and see what BASI come up with, the preliminary report should be very interesting.

fuel..?
 

Hopefully the Westwind boys didn't adopt the same approach to "fuel planning" as the Metro drivers.. :}

S

Ozbiggles, as well as the media turning, watch Pelair management as they twist in the wind, then eventually turn. At the moment they are obliged to paint the captain a hero as they have contracts to consider and of course their pilots are the greatest gift that God gave to aviation.
But if the investigation starts to uncover dodgy practices at an organisational level, the blame game will be on.

Channel 7 news is reporting tonight that the ex-Cleo Bathelor of the year pilot is to be questioned by authorities as to why the aircraft ran out of fuel in the first place.

It appears that the appropriate questions are already being asked by the appropriate persons.

NZ's TV3 late news "nightline" just ran an item on the pilot saying "Hero pilot's credentials in question after it was disclosed he had failed his Qantas flight exams".....

Schmucks!!! :ugh: :ugh: Journalists are just useless ****s when it comes to aviation.

S2K

Tiger35,
Your view on going below MDA is unbending, unyielding. When you find yourself with an extreme attitude to something, it is usually unbalanced.
There are many many situations I can think of where I would take my jet below MDA /DA without the required visual references rather than ditch it in the sea at night.
I won't say I would have done it in this circumstance because I don't know the met conditions and a/c equipment etc.
My point is, your attitude to MDA's might just be more of a threat to flight safety than that of the people you are denegrating on here for saying they would have considered it.
I definately would have considered it.
Regards,
Framer

:yuk:

I used to work for Pelair and this was one of the first things we did before commencing line training! :}

Mach, agree with you 100%.
Companies are working people harder, longer and with as little of the cheapest support as they can get away with until an accident eventually occurs.
And then they will spend money making sure the individual and not the board carries the can.
Lots of sayings in aviation, in my top 5 is
If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident

Hindsight!!! Holy Moly, it's not hindsight. The crew should have been monitoring the fuel "how goes it" from top of climb. Throw in bad weather at destination and their plastic whizz-wheels should have almost melted. This would have also detected any fuel leak. Fair dinkum, don't these guys learn anything from their SCPL subjects?

Good post Mach E Avelli.

framer agreed.

If and I mean if it had a colour map GPS..... a GNS430/530W (even a G495) the minima for the RNAV is quite good with DGPS and with a VERY accurate runway aligned and accurate QNH set I would bust the minima a little bit too. Very carefully so long as you were very accurately aligned. Problem is if the fog is thick as custard right to the ground...... :eek:

Now if they only had a NDB and VOR to use, which are not runway aligned approaches, you are stuffed!

How the heck did they get into this situation to begin with? :uhoh:

@ SATMSTR (post #126)
 

Mate, you're nearly right :E Allow me to correct you:

It's every Cleo Batchelor of the Year's dream to be a pilot!! ;)

I thought of that as a bit of a laugh, we'll see how much truth is in it, in the fullness of time

Judging by the previous post (a bit strong I thought, but I don't personally know those concerned, or the history) hmmm,,,

CR

Righty.. let see if we can cut thru some of the BS.. from the guy who would happily bust MDA at Norfolk with no Glideslope guidance whatsoever, to the other guy that thinks you can open the back door of the Westwind thru the mid mounted centre fuel tank to get access to the liferaft that was supposedly stowed in the main rear baggage locker....

The aircraft is being listed as VH-NGA, a Westwind 2.

The Westwind 2 can quite happily carry about 9000 lbs of fuel without the additional ferry tank fitted. (give or take a couple of hundred lbs, it's hot in Apia so your not gonna get your full fuel load)

APW-NLK is listed as 1441 nm, great circle routing.

It'll also quite happily fly at 440 kts TAS at altitude.

Fuel burn from memory was roughly 2000 lbs /hr for the first hour (worse case scenario), 1800 lbs/hr for the next and can get as low as 1200 lbs/hr if you hang it off LRC. Holding at S/L for the Westwind according to the QRH is around 1000 lbs an hour at low weights.

So with that in mind, one would think even at full speed ahead (.74 if ISA with EECS fitted), with a full fuel load on the Westwind, at nil wind speeds, you would easily make NLK with roughly 3500 lbs of fuel in the tanks. It's only 3.4 hrs APW-NLK. This is a piece of pi$$ for a WW1124a. Even with a 100 knot headwind over the flight. You'd still get to NLK with 2100 lbs in the tanks.

The longest leg I've flown in a Westwind was 2060 nm long, and we still had enough fuel for a 250 nm divert to alternate with 30 mins fuel overhead.

At around the weights the Westwind would be at, the QRH gives a alternate diversion fuel required at a air distance of 450 nm, as 1800 lbs. That includes a MA, climb, cruise to Alt and descent to alternate.
Even with 2100 lbs in tanks, you'd have enough for ONE shot then off to your nearest alternate, which would be Noumea.

So why is this guy a hero, and why were they swimming?!

OK, 4 Prozac later. I am a little calmed down now, so all I want to know at the moment is why did such a strapping young (crosseyed) lad, run out of fuel?

For tomorrow, I got some really good questions but I am just a bit tired so will save them for then.

CR, me, harsh, wat eva. ;p

DD

NLK TAF
 

double post double post

Does anyone know which CASA office controls the AOC?

Hopefully not another BATFO one.

MP

Actually, just about every ditching I have heard of has been at least partly successful. Ditching successfully doesn't require the steely-eyed aviation god most people assume.
I'll second that, though!
In 12 years and 10,000 hours of airline flying, including about 50 days in the sim, I have never undergone a ditching exercise in the sim! It's an event so rare that precious sim time isn't spent on the exercise. (I have, of course, undergone raft and life jacket training in the pool a few times, and discussed the event.)

westwind
 

TAFS
 

TAF YSNF 201016Z 2012/2106 09010KT 9999 SCT020 OVC025 FM202300 08012KT 9999 SCT025 BKN030 RMK

TAF YSNF 200404Z 2006/2024 11010KT 9999 SCT020 BKN030 RMK

TAF YSNF 192210Z 2000/2018 11010KT 9999 SCT020 BKN030 RMK

TAF YSNF 191637Z 1918/2012 11010KT 9999 SCT020 BKN030 RMK

TAF YSNF 190427Z 1906/1924 14012KT 9999 SCT020 BKN030 RMK

TAF YSNF 182244Z 1900/1918 14012KT 9999 SCT035 RMK

TAF AMD YSNF 182120Z 1821/1912 14012KT 9999 SCT030 RMK

TAF YSNF 181630Z 1818/1912 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 FM190200 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN020 FM190600 16012KT 9999 SCT030 TEMPO 1818/1824 4000 SHRA BKN005 RMK

TAF TAF YSNF 181030Z 1812/1906 26008KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 FM190200 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN020 TEMPO 1812/1824 4000 SHRA BKN005 RMK

TAF AMD YSNF 180958Z 1810/1824 26008KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 TEMPO 1810/1824 4000 SHRA BKN005 RMK

TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180803Z 1808/1824 26008KT 9999 BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 RMK

TAF YSNF 180437Z 1806/1824 26008KT 9999 SCT020 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA SCT010 BKN020 RMK

TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180429Z 1804/1818 30012KT 9999 SCT020 FM180600 26008KT 9999 SCT020 RMK

TAF AMD YSNF 172204Z 1722/1818 30015KT 9999 BKN006 FM180600 26008KT 9999 SCT020 RMK

TAF YSNF 171637Z 1718/1812 34010KT 8000 HZ BKN005 FM172200 30015KT 9999 SCT015 FM180600 26008KT 9999 SCT020 RMK

TAF YSNF 171017Z 1712/1806 34010KT 8000 HZ BKN005 FM172200 30015KT 9999 HZ SCT015 RMK

TAF AMD YSNF 170743Z 1707/1724 34015KT 9999 SCT010 FM170900 34010KT 8000 HZ BKN005 FM172200 30015KT 9999 HZ SCT015 RMK

TAF TAF YSNF 170527Z 1706/1724 34015KT 9999 SCT010 BKN025 FM171200 34010KT 9999 HZ BKN005 FM172200 30015KT 9999 HZ SCT015 RMK

TAF YSNF 162304Z 1700/1718 34015KT 9999 SCT010 BKN025 FM171200 34010KT 9999 HZ BKN005 RMK

TAF YSNF 161617Z 1618/1712 31006KT 9999 SCT015 SCT035 FM162300 35015KT 9999 SCT010 SCT030 RMK


Not sure of the actual time of departure but these should cover it.

Sourced from Navlost.eu

Your being watched......by entertainment reporters....

TV star Simmone Jade McKinnon pregnant to hero pilot Dominic James | TV | News.com.au

Are those industry sources PPRUNE??

If the ditching was at around 1030z, after a 3.5 hour flight and an hour completing approaches, then take-off would have been about 0600z, with briefing an hour to an hour and a half before that - say 0430z (as a scratchpad calculation.)

Of course all you Monday Morning Quarterbacks who are reacting to media reports and speculation would have done it differently.

Hey here is an idea, why don't we express our thoughts and prayers to the Captain, F/O and passengers and let the rest come out in the investigation.

Ok, according to the airport manager Mr Glenn Robinson, the ditching happened about 2130 local. ysnf utc +1130, therefore about 181000Z. time of departure 06 to 0700?? sure the prelim' report will have the actual.

read the last taf first.


TAF AMD YSNF 180958Z 1810/1824 26008KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 TEMPO 1810/1824 4000 SHRA BKN005 RMK

TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180803Z 1808/1824 26008KT 9999 BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 RMK

TAF YSNF 180437Z 1806/1824 26008KT 9999 SCT020 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA SCT010 BKN020 RMK

TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180429Z 1804/1818 30012KT 9999 SCT020 FM180600 26008KT 9999 SCT020 RMK

For those with experience flying into this part of the world, what's the legal (cao 82, operator ops manual, jepp or dap) and PRACTICAL alternate min for this aerodrome???????


(Ack to Checkers timings. just posted prior to me)

Would have done it differently???


YES


Carried fuel for an alternate and used it to go there.

Ah, the time it consumes, reading all 188 posts. So many repetitive. So many puerile, vacuous and typical of proone blather at it's most gruelling.

(Better keeping trap shut and being thought idiot, than opening same, resulting in no doubt whatever.)

DD

You sound suspiciously like a never-has-been wannabe pilot who is jealous with the angle the media are taking on this particular event.

Your vexatious, purile and unsubstatiated personal observations obviously stem from your irrelevant existence somewhere in the 'western suburbs' where you view persons who live more eastwards from you and who happen to be more physically appealing than you, with jealous contempt.

You purport to be an expert on aviation procedures and privy to some inside information yet you seem to be consumed by a personal vendetta agenda that exposes you as a fraud.

Get back in your hole D**k Head and wait for the true factors of this event to be revealed.

KLN

0900/21 - I see you have deleted your highly defamatory and self serving post - the first evidence of commonsense you have displayed.

From the news reports of last night, I noted with interest the comments from the patient's husband ..

he was surprised that the ditching itself was not as bad as he expected impact wise, but the cabin filled with water very quickly as the door blew in, and they all escaped through an emergency window.

As for the lady herself being a walk on patient - barely and only with considerable assistance.

The opening mechanism for the Westwind door swings it inside about six inches, before then allowing it to swing out. When I heard of the ditching, I was amazed that they were able to open the door against the water pressure - obviously they weren't!

Guessing here, that as the life raft would have been too big to pass through the escape window, and as there wasn't any hope of opening the door outward due water pressure, that ends the discussion about non deployment of the raft regardless of where it was?

The liferaft isn't that big, nor the Westwind emergency exit that small...

Dear A1322, that diversion of the GG's RAAF 737 BBJ, happened months before the incident of the PelAir ditching off NLK.
The reason for the GG's diversion was the pilot of the RAAF 737 BBJ had to battle 45+ kts cross winds, and 3 missed approaches. BUT the to the amazement of the RAAF pilots, the RPT Our Airline 737 made 1 approach and successfully landed 5 minutes after the RAAF had diverted. The RAAF pilots couldnt believe that the Our Airline 737 landed on the island.:ok:

I guess we must accept the Board Chairman's explanation, however given a similar set of circumstances - no Mayday call, only three in lifejackets, no life rafts, ditching two miles off shore - I think it would be natural to assume the pilot may have been attempting a home made "precision" approach during which the aircraft unintentionally impacted the sea and the lack of motion lotion may or may not be correct.

“This is right at the gold medal level for aviation … if he’s not a hero already he is well on his way to being one,”


Yeah? We'll see.

Brilliant!

Wish I'd thought of it!!

Anywhere within the range of the aircraft providing it is not an aerodrome on a "remote island" which would require an alternate.

Second hand, but from someone who was onboard the aircraft:

-There was no advance warning of a ditching.
-The main door was opened (not sure by whom), at which point the aircraft began to sink quickly, everyone exited through the emergency exit.
-All occupants well, apart from some seat belt bruising.

Here ( as predicted by one very wise PPRUNER above :ok: ) is the first sign of a turn in the media :


Someone suggested praying, yes, I guess you could pray he keeps his licence and Pelair keep their AOC......if they deserve to :confused:

But...but......he's a Cleo Batchelor of the Year!!!

TV star Simone Jade McKinnon pregnant to hero pilot Dominic James | The Daily Telegraph

THE hero pilot who saved the lives of his five passengers including a critically-injured woman is expecting a baby with his former girlfriend, TV favourite Simone Jade McKinnon.
Dominic James, the 33-year-old former Cleo Bachelor of the Year who on Wednesday was forced to ditch his aircraft in waters off Norfolk Island, only learned of McKinnon's pregnancy shortly after they broke up.

While sources close to the expectant parents declined to comment on the relationship, McKinnon revealed this month there was no doubt the father of her child would play a role in the baby's life.

She starred in Channel 9's McLeod's Daughters and was this year nominated for a Gold Logie.

Australia's Next Top Model mentor Jonathon Pease said that James - his friend of 20 years - was taking the near-death incident "in his stride".

"When I read about the accident, I thought 'That's typical Dom.' He's the man I'd want next to me in a crisis. He's a legend," Pease said.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
Related CoverageToo cool: Hero pilot a magazine pin-up
.End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
His eligible bachelor status was also enshrined, his mate said.

"If he's not the most eligible bachelor after that, I don't know what you've got to do?"

But as his heroics were being praised yesterday, questions were being asked about how the aircraft ran out of fuel while enroute to Melbourne from Samoa.

Online aviation industry forums were rife with questions about whether the aircraft's operator Pel-Air faces sanctions by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

Industry sources were staggered that the aircraft could be left without sufficient fuel to fly to an alternative destination.

Pel-Air would not address allegations it had not met aviation regulations. "The pilot complied with the company operations manual," is all the company said in a statement.

Pel-Air also confirmed the aircraft had been equipped with seven lifejackets, even though only three passengers were able to access them in time. The group was left floating in the water, huddled around those lucky enough to be wearing lifejackets.

There were also two liferafts on board the plane, capable of carrying six people each.

The remaining lifejackets, and both liferafts, sank with the aircraft three minutes after it hit the water.

Mr James has not spoken publicly about the incident since returning to Sydney, but friends said he was taking it in his stride.

The president of the Young Variety Club, which is holding a festive fundraiser next weekend, was quick to tell organisers: "Don't worry, I'll be right to go in the Santa Fun Run".

He has used his celebrity connections in his fundraising, calling on mates like Pease, Laura Csortan and Lizzy Lovette to volunteer their time.

Wonder if he'll show us..."Magnum"?;)