Nope,

The John Sharp ex Australian Minister for Transport and all things aviation.

Terrible situation to be in. As to how they got there will be determined.
I think I would rather have attempted an on airport landing by descending on the VOR appch from a calculated VDP on the 3* appch path to below minimums to a lit runway as a last resort rather than attempt a night ditching in pitch black conditions in bad weather.
Assuming that is the type of appch they were doing???
Pelair's aircraft are not equipped to do the SCAT 1 appch???
Great to see all survived :ok:

After dozens of approaches (and a few diversions)into Norfolk,my rule generally was one go and divert.Not a place to try and out guess the weather.

I am disturbed at the direction that this thread could be taking and I would suggest that people deal only in facts and not speculate at this stage.

It is good that no one has been badly hurt.

It is cataclysmic that an aeroplane has been lost.

Proper investigation will determine the whys and wherefores.

NLK is a diabolic destination in that the WX is often appalling with low cloud, low visibility and windshear. There is no precision approach. A typical 'bad' day will has a TAF that reads like: 160/20-30G45 3000RASH BKN 300 OVC 1200 TEMPO 180/35G50 1000XXSH OVC200'.

YBNF is not a place for sissies. Over the years, there must have been hundreds of briefings with the island clearly visible at TOPD for arrival into NF expecting a VMC approch that culminated in just getting visual at the minima-yes, the wx at NF is THAT changable!


I refer to CAO 82.0:




remote island means:



(c) Norfolk Island.






(a) the minimum amount of fuel that the aeroplane should carry on that



(b) if the operations manual does not make provision for the calculation of
that amount or has not been revised as directed by CASA — whichever



2.4 For the purposes of subparagraph 2.3 (b), the amounts of fuel are:



(b) the minimum amount of fuel that would, if the failure of an engine or a
loss of pressurisation were to occur during the flight, enable the


(i) to fly to its destination aerodrome or to its alternate aerodrome for the flight; and
(ii) to fly for 15 minutes at holding speed at 1 500 feet above that aerodrome under standard temperature conditions; and

Norfolk has and always will be a dicey place especially when the WX turns bad. Ask any of the operators that have done the RPT runs out there and it ends up turning very expensive with 2 trips and 2 diversions not being out of the ordinary.

Norfolk was also the scene of another near incident years ago when a 'RPT PA31' operated by Kenti-Link left LHI for NLK - didn't get the most current TAF halfway thru the flight and ended up at NLK and couldn't get in. He was talked down by the airport manager and him and pax lived to fight another day. It was the end of RPT from LHI in pistons when the report came out due to the recommendations.

Sure is going to be an interesting report this time around as well!

A3211 that mentioned the GGs flight in the RAAF BBJ that diverted out of NLK - check the date - that happened in August !

Also waiting for the report into the Ozjet B737 that lost some flap during a go around in bad wx and diverted to Tontuta in December 2007.


Thursday, 28 February 2008
Oz Jet’s old and scary jets come under question

Ben Sandilands writes:
Significant question marks over the use of old and scary jets by charter airline Oz Jet are apparent in preliminary air safety investigation reports into the carrier’s two headline making Christmas holiday emergencies.
On 29 December one of its 32-year-old Boeing 737-200s suffered a flap failure that saw passengers on a flight from Brisbane to Norfolk Island wearing their life vests in case the flight was forced to ditch into the ocean as it diverted to Noumea.
On 31 December another similarly aged Oz Jet 737-200 that had departed Port Moresby for Brisbane made a Mayday distress call and a quick return to the airport after a part of a crucial control surface near its tail broke off.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau describes how the first flight experienced high frequency vibrations after flaps failed to retract properly when the pilots aborted an attempt to land at Norfolk Island in low cloud and driving rain.
The problem caused the jet to pull 40 degrees to the left of its intended course and suffer continued buffeting and roll and “yaw” (or nose wagging) for much of the diversion to Noumea, the nearest alternative airport.
Because of doubts about whether the jet would make Noumea, full emergency drills were carried out in the cabin with passengers putting on uninflated life vests and preparing for the worst.
In the Port Moresby incident, the ancient 737 suffered vibration so severe the pilots reported the jet was difficult to control. A section of the right elevator tab in the tail of the jet had broken off.
This component is of crucial importance to the controllability of all 737s old or new. The ATSB notes that Oz Jet had complied fully with a special service bulletin mandating close inspections of this part.
In both cases the safety investigator is now looking in more detail into how such old jets are serviced.
Its findings will have global relevance, as 737-200s are widely used by third world carriers because they can be cheaply acquired for close to scrap value. This model of the 737 figures disproportionately in crash statistics, particularly in Africa and Indonesia.
Oz Jet is sometimes described within the industry as having among the best of pilots and cabin crew but flying the worst of aircraft

Loose Lips Sink Ships
 

Can't wait to see the quotes in the media, sourced from the Professional Pilots Rumour Network!

There's some doozies here to choose from! :mad:

The general public has a largely jaundiced view of aviation as it is, without us adding too it!

It would be great if CH9 and the rest of the media held off going with the Hero Pilot caper until more is known.

The bloke did a good job by the sounds of it, and may well deserve the hero tag, but until an investigation finds out why the situation occured its a bit premature to speculate.

Many years ago a TAA F27 out of MEL had its rudder come adrift. The Melbourne media named and hailed the Captain as a hero after he elected to circle around MEL for a long time, burning off fuel to a minimum, before making a perfectly normal landing..

Only problem was TAA management didn't think he was a hero. They called him in and reamed him out for not landing ASAP. Had an engine failed while endlessly circling around , the lack of a rudder would have seen them go in like a dart. A point lost on your average media hacks.

It pays to get the full story before creating media heroes.

This Dominic?

"I think I would rather have attempted an on airport landing by descending on the VOR appch from a calculated VDP on the 3* appch path to below minimums to a lit runway as a last resort rather than attempt a night ditching in pitch black conditions in bad weather." - AUSSIE 027

Hey Aussie027 are you seriously suggesting that you would bust the MDA in a terrain rich environment in IMC conditions that are below the MDA and risk a CFIT into stratogranitus rather than a "controlled" contact with the water as a REAL OPTION?:(

Do YOU know why CASA PROHIBIT instrument approach commencement when the weather is below stated criteria?

It is to save the life of the passengers who have to sit behind pilots who are all too willing to make the type of decision that you seem so willing to not only carry out, but to encourage others to do it as well.:=

Yours is one of the most dangerous comments I have ever read on PPRUNE or anywhere else.

Do YOU understand that NAVIGATION TOLERANCES do not guarantee tracking over a particular piece of ground?

Do YOU understand anything about the way that Instrument Approach procedures are designed to be flown?

Didn't think that would be your sort of publication tinny.

You really are full of surprises! :}

Congratulations Pelair Westwind Captain
 

Done Good Pilot !
To get a jet onto the ocean in one piece then evacuate all on board to safety {with a med patient as well), took courage and one hell of a steady hand.
In that moment you looked death in the face and prevailed.
You've done your fellow aviators proud,
Well Done.

Radio interview with Norfolk Island airport manager
 

Dominic James Ditches Plane | Norfolk Island | CareFlight, Medivac

Apparently all this for a "walk on" patient.

Have you given some thought to the fact that pilots are not supposed to run out of fuel?

Agree with anthill

FACT Life vests on board ( enough for all )
FACT Life raft on Board

some here seem to be impliying otherwise.

A hero ... :hmm: wait for the report. Releasing his name ... :ugh: Noumea is the closest alternate. I'm just wondering what will happen to a payout for the aircraft from insurance IF the fuel calculations weren't IAW CAO 82.0 or company procedures, if anybody cares to enlighten me. Why were there only 3 wearing life jackets? The media :ugh:

I also agree with Anthill

FACT- Former Bachelor of the year nominee:}

So when did this happen?

I would think it prudent to sit on this one until the facts come out.

Potential scenario:

TAF is all good and well for NF on dep. from Samoa

At PNR, crew gets updated WX and TAF still good.

Crew press beyond PNR as fuel is all good at this point.

Wx closes in when aircraft past PNR.

Aircraft cannot make it to any other divert (not aware of RPT NF rules, so assuming they legally don't need to hold Tontouta based on good TAF for NF on dep. Samoa?)

Crew has no option but to land at (or next to) NF.

ditching
 

good work to the co-pilot also, no doubt they would have been workin to buggery also!

She did very well but is not getting much air time

Would like to know the full story, but according to the paper he made several attempts at landing, before running out of fuel.
I am sure CASA will be interested in this as risking 6 peoples lives by running out of fuel, at night, in the middle of the ocean, may not meet the requirements of a mercy flight, assuming that is what they will claim it was when asked why they ran out of fuel.

5.1

5.2

5.3

Civil Aviation Act Section 20A, which prohibits careless or reckless operations.

I don't think he has complied with 5.3, you tell me :confused:
( PS, it's an oldish draft, not sure if anything has changed )

RPG, you would have to be ****head to make a statement like this Endangering the life of passengers due to not carrying enough fuel, I would never want to be associated with anyone who thinks this idiot has done anyone proud.
:=

You're right Spikey, but we should wait for all the facts first, I am assuming the only " facts " we currently have are from the papers ?

I am not so sure CASA ( and Pelair ) will see him as a hero :hmm:

Pilot a hero???? I dont think so!
 

The Westwind with full fuel should be able to make it to Norfolk from Apia with enough fuel to get to Noumea in normal enroute wind conditions, with 1 approach.

the fact that the TAF was showing such bad weather there and that the METARS for the entire day were crap, would have had me planning via Noumea to melbourne instead of norfolk.

Noumea has an ILS, and good alternates around were norfolk doesnt have either!

I wonder whether pelair has given the pilots any planning software yet or whether you still have to provide your own (most of us had plans made on excel for standard routes and amended them if you were going somewhere different which really eats up your 2 hrs callout time) something like web based jetplan that the crew had access to (if they still dont) would have given the crew more time to look over weather and also allow them to run plans via NWWW to check alternate routings, for info its only 80nm further to go to melbourne via noumea which is the way I would be going!

I hope they do have planning software by now but if they dont I hope that they realise the potential saving of a few hundred bucks a year.

Good work for carrying out a successful ditching, but your a bloody idiot getting yourself in that position, especially if you were getting metars on the way and elected to continue there instead of diverting to NWWW, and if you weren't getting metars then you should hand in your wings.

Hero Pilot? I dont think so, lucky Pilot is a better call, you put the plane in the situation where you had no options! you are lucky to have got out with your lives.

Cougar
then gives a potential scenario :ugh:

Sorry correct me if I'm wrong, but the worst case scenario for Norfolk (being a remote island) would be depressurized. So the fuel calculations would be based on a point of safe diversion based on being depressurized. The PSD should therefore be beyond the island, if not try LR cruise, recalculate fuel, if not (a possible fuel leak) piss off to the nearest non-remote island/mainland (your alternate ... in this case Noumea).

'Pilot hailed a hero after ditching plane at sea'
 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...SS&attr=797093

Sophie Tedmanson in Sydney

A pilot has been hailed as a hero for safely ditching his plane into the sea off Australia and saving the lives of all on board.

The medical plane, which was transporting a patient and five others from Samoa to Melbourne, began to run out of fuel as it approached Norfolk Island,
a small island in the Pacific off the east coast of Australia, on Wednesday night.

Captain Dominic James, a former nominee for ‘bachelor of the year’ in an Australian magazine, was praised for his “amazing” skill
at bringing the plane down in the dark and saving the lives of his passengers.

In an accident which bore similarities to the Hudson River plane crash in New York in January, Captain James decided to make a controlled landing onto the sea off the island, and landed the Westwind jet safely on the water.

The plane sank within minutes, but the patient, her husband, two medical crew and the two pilots evacuated safely. The six people clung to each other, treading water under the moonlight for 90 minutes because only three had time to grab life jackets.

They were eventually rescued by boat and taken to the island where they were treated for shock, but remarkably none were injured.

Pel-Air Aviation chairman John Sharp said he was very proud of Captain James and the first officer.

“Their professionalism stood out on the day and made a substantial difference to the outcome,” he said.

“They executed what would have to be described as a perfect landing on water. The pilots ensured that the aircraft landed close to the coast, close to rescue.

“They landed at night, approximately we think about 9.30pm (10.30am GMT) local time, and as a result of the skill of the pilots the aircraft landed in the water and none of the passengers were injured.”

Norfolk Island airport manager Glenn Robinson said the passengers were shaken up by their ordeal.

“They were extremely lucky and believe me, they all know it,” he told and Australian radio station.

“Full credit to the pilot. It was just an amazing effort by him.”

In January US Airways pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger was hailed a hero for safely ditching an Airbus 320 into the Hudson River in New York, saving all 155 passengers and crew on board.

more info here in the australian section of Prune:

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...g-off-nlk.html

no fuel?? no alternate airport?? or sudeen unforcast weather deterioration??

A hugely impressive feat, I really hope I never end up in a similar situation.

However, and not meaning to detract from their "amazing skill"; surely they should not have been in that situation in the first place? Obviously we do not have all the facts here, but how was it that they did not have enough fuel for destination, or a suitable alternate?

I remember some wise words imparted during my initial training that went something along the lines of; "a superior pilot uses his superior intellect to ensure that he never has to rely on his superior skill"...

Pel Air had some trouble in Noumea apparently - failed ramp checks due fuel policy, crew quals etc. Don't seem to plan there at all now??
Left Apia without TAF, and not much gas anyway.
Where's the regulator? Hello CASA??? If this was USA, any operator who ditched for 'fuel exhaustion' would be grounded.

Just one more question......... Why was the life raft in the boot??????????

no wonder no one got into it!

River. Hudson comes to mind. :ugh:

At Norfolk Island ?

Or lake, fjord, reservoir, swamp, pond, lagoon, estuary...

I seem to remember a Britannia(?) doing a forced landing in the UK on it's way back from Spain due to running out of fuel, the press called him a hero etc, but he still got blamed for not dipping the tanks as his fuel gauges were us and the refuellers had cocked it up.

Alidair Viscount at Ottery St. Mary (Exeter)

Air Accidents Investigation: 9/1981 G-ARBY

Tiger 35.
I am not encouraging anyone to break regs under any normal circumstances. This was not normal circumstances.
I am familiar with nav tolerances etc.
I am not familiar with Norfolks approaches or terrain specifically/ personally but I know there is high terrain to N of airport.
In a final, last chance situation, I only suggest that a controlled appch /landing onto a lit runway or a runway strip area on the flat ground of an airport may be a safer option with a better chance of survival than a so called "controlled" impact with the moving surface of the ocean in presumably rough conditions and pitch black due to the overcast.
Obviously one has to avoid running into terrain on the final descent from MDA to the field. The final 3* descent from the VDP should keep you clear of the terrain IF you are within tolerances on the approach as this final 4-500 feet would normally be flown visually with the runway in sight if you were in the clear at MDA.
Not here to get into a debate.

Hipster

I think that may be why a senior westwind pilot was told to get out of Guam and never come back recently.

See some of my past posts over the last few months.

I have seen CASA shut companies down for far less than this but somehow PA seem to be able to crash 3 (I think )westwinds and still be operating.

WTF?