NZ R/T Procedure....
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NZ R/T Procedure....
Is it just me being picky (or pricky), or are our radio calls getting less professional??
Maybe it's something creeping in from the Flying Schools since the more experenced instrs. have moved on???
Things like using the term "Airborne" after departure when it's pretty obvious that you are!! (NZAIP OPS 68)
"Estimating Blah at time XX" is another prime example.
Instead of just: "Blah XX".
No requirement for the "Estimating" we know it's an estimate and of course it's going to be a time!
Which brings me to the term "This Time"!! Of course it is this time!!!
Otherwise if we made a posn report at 38, but over a rep port at 32 say, it would be:
"XX 32, 9500', XY 48"
I know we all have a bit of banter at times (esp me!!!) but at least the job calls could be a bit more professional!!
It's relatively simple stuff (It has to be to help us and the ATCO's).
Your thoughts while I slip into my Flak Jacket and grab my Helmet!!
Maybe it's something creeping in from the Flying Schools since the more experenced instrs. have moved on???
Things like using the term "Airborne" after departure when it's pretty obvious that you are!! (NZAIP OPS 68)
"Estimating Blah at time XX" is another prime example.
Instead of just: "Blah XX".
No requirement for the "Estimating" we know it's an estimate and of course it's going to be a time!
Which brings me to the term "This Time"!! Of course it is this time!!!
Otherwise if we made a posn report at 38, but over a rep port at 32 say, it would be:
"XX 32, 9500', XY 48"
I know we all have a bit of banter at times (esp me!!!) but at least the job calls could be a bit more professional!!
It's relatively simple stuff (It has to be to help us and the ATCO's).
Your thoughts while I slip into my Flak Jacket and grab my Helmet!!
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Could be folks jumping to and fro across the Tasman.
Airborne call mandatory here in control zones.
Why, I do not know - seems to be stating the obvious.
Could be to save the controller looking up from his/her newspaper?
Better pass me that flak jacket
Airborne call mandatory here in control zones.
Why, I do not know - seems to be stating the obvious.
Could be to save the controller looking up from his/her newspaper?
Better pass me that flak jacket
I couldnt care less to tell you the truth. New Zealand hardly has cluttered frequencies. if someone wants to add a little bit, good for them.
One thing that does bother me though is delays due to training aircraft. But that could be another thread
One thing that does bother me though is delays due to training aircraft. But that could be another thread
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You're not wrong with the TRG A/C.
I really meant with the GA operators, although a few of the more "experienced" pilots on IFR Ops use the airborne call.
Have no idea why.
I thought all this technology meant we spoke less work, and had more time to read the paper!
FRF, there are a few time when it gets a bit busy.....
I really meant with the GA operators, although a few of the more "experienced" pilots on IFR Ops use the airborne call.
Have no idea why.
I thought all this technology meant we spoke less work, and had more time to read the paper!
FRF, there are a few time when it gets a bit busy.....
Last edited by CT7; 26th Jun 2003 at 07:37.
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Actually it is relevant in NZ. I myself reguarly undertake IFR flights from uncontrolled airfields outside Radar coverage and seems perfectly sensible to advise that I am "airborne" to OH or CH Control so they know to activate alerting services etc.
CT7 your argument about estimating etc could be valid but really... is it worth deviating from the sports pages to have a whinge to your Co (or yourself) about it. I doubt it.
I was taught that your Position reports were to be in the PTA ETA format. Hence a requirement to mention the time the position was valid, if it is a the same time as you broadcast it easier to say "this time" than actually report the time. Sometimes you can't get through when you want to so you may want to report that you were overhead Position X at time YY (which may be some minutes ago). Again nothing to distract you from your personal columns.
I'll bet you say as part of your normal R/T when changing control freq etc that "FLTXXX is with you, maintaining..." . That is also quite obvious, isn't it.
Do we know each other, I had a light-hearted rebuke over the NZNR freq, from a Ct7 operator about this very subject.... Is it still nawing away at you???
Cheers
S2K
CT7 your argument about estimating etc could be valid but really... is it worth deviating from the sports pages to have a whinge to your Co (or yourself) about it. I doubt it.
I was taught that your Position reports were to be in the PTA ETA format. Hence a requirement to mention the time the position was valid, if it is a the same time as you broadcast it easier to say "this time" than actually report the time. Sometimes you can't get through when you want to so you may want to report that you were overhead Position X at time YY (which may be some minutes ago). Again nothing to distract you from your personal columns.
I'll bet you say as part of your normal R/T when changing control freq etc that "FLTXXX is with you, maintaining..." . That is also quite obvious, isn't it.
Do we know each other, I had a light-hearted rebuke over the NZNR freq, from a Ct7 operator about this very subject.... Is it still nawing away at you???
Cheers
S2K
the "heavy" guys are surely the worst....most cant even muster a landing clearence response.....more often than not all you hear is a ".....hhhmmmppphh".....
the departures page clearly states to contact 124.3 airborne AA but they obviously cant be bothered reading that either for they remain on TWR frequently - and no not because they have been told to.
when did this happen?? last thursday?? or perhaps when you yourself "moved on".
a funny thing to say.
the departures page clearly states to contact 124.3 airborne AA but they obviously cant be bothered reading that either for they remain on TWR frequently - and no not because they have been told to.
Maybe it's something creeping in from the Flying Schools since the more experenced instrs. have moved on???
when did this happen?? last thursday?? or perhaps when you yourself "moved on".
a funny thing to say.
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Mate, I'm not trying to point fingers here, there would be enuf pointing back.. just trying to see where correct (and our guys are to blame as well...) R/T Proc can slot back in....
Hey, I remember the days when Massey Pilots used to readback everything incl. the temp & dewpoint......
Your point about u/cont airfields is noted, but the point I'm making there are the operators IN radar coverage ie out of AA, WN, CH that are slack.
It just sounds silly with people saying the word estimating when we know what it is.
I even heard "Estimated ETA at Blah Blah..." May as well just say "I think I'm going to be at Blah Blah Pub at about this time - I think!"
"This time", well, the actual figure(s) sounds better (and is more correct), but again, just trying to get some feedback....
Knawing, nah. Got better things to knaw about, just got an earfull of it two days ago around the country and was wondering what the F/Instrs are not teaching out there, or are they just interested in building hours?
And that quip was a light hearted hassell. Hadn't seen ya for a while, and yet to see Shaun...
Regards to the new family....
Ciao! 4 Now.
Hey, I remember the days when Massey Pilots used to readback everything incl. the temp & dewpoint......
Your point about u/cont airfields is noted, but the point I'm making there are the operators IN radar coverage ie out of AA, WN, CH that are slack.
It just sounds silly with people saying the word estimating when we know what it is.
I even heard "Estimated ETA at Blah Blah..." May as well just say "I think I'm going to be at Blah Blah Pub at about this time - I think!"
"This time", well, the actual figure(s) sounds better (and is more correct), but again, just trying to get some feedback....
Knawing, nah. Got better things to knaw about, just got an earfull of it two days ago around the country and was wondering what the F/Instrs are not teaching out there, or are they just interested in building hours?
And that quip was a light hearted hassell. Hadn't seen ya for a while, and yet to see Shaun...
Regards to the new family....
Ciao! 4 Now.
Last edited by CT7; 26th Jun 2003 at 18:12.
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NIKE - Remaining on the tower frequency until instructed to change to departures is a fairly general world wide practice - only in NZ is the change "automatic" (I acknowledge there will be other exceptions) - "Heavy" operators are by definition longhaul/international operators - you will notice that ATC does not in fact assume that intl departures will automatically change freq when airborne, but in fact issue a change instruction. As an NZ pilot who flies domestically within NZ (private IFR and VFR) and longhaul intl, I can tell you intl crews are more careful about R/T than a domestic pilot, in any country, who is used to only one idiom and set ofprocedures and accents etc, and are more procedural and deliberate about R/T .
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Hmmmm - I think back to when I was taught the FRTO and since dual flying has largely ended I find my (possibly at times) improper RTFO has actually come from listening out to every one else on the Control/Info freq. It would appear that it is everyones fault that everyone else is doing it 'not quite right'.
The one RTFO thing that does nagg me is when making intial contact with.... 'ABC is Avalon this time 2500ft' - Where were you last time?? - Its your intial contact.
Personally I dont think the RTFO in NZ is too much to worry about in the big sceme of things. - ATC understand the a/c and the a/c can understand each other - If it was a problem im sure the matter would have been addressed such as overdue SARwatches.
The one RTFO thing that does nagg me is when making intial contact with.... 'ABC is Avalon this time 2500ft' - Where were you last time?? - Its your intial contact.
Personally I dont think the RTFO in NZ is too much to worry about in the big sceme of things. - ATC understand the a/c and the a/c can understand each other - If it was a problem im sure the matter would have been addressed such as overdue SARwatches.
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And spare a thought for...
Those poor punters in the training flights
Well on the last three occasions I have been out I have been held on the ground or in the air whilst the local domestic ops get in/out (I don't mind particularly being held in the air, but the 10 mins on the ground = $20 odd that I would rather not spend in that way).
Most of the folks on Pprune have been in the training flights at some stage in their flying career, and the couple of minutes we hold you guys up is also extra pennies in your wages from duty time and time logged at someone elses expense.
I couldnt care less to tell you the truth. New Zealand hardly has cluttered frequencies. if someone wants to add a little bit, good for them.
One thing that does bother me though is delays due to training aircraft. But that could be another thread
One thing that does bother me though is delays due to training aircraft. But that could be another thread
Most of the folks on Pprune have been in the training flights at some stage in their flying career, and the couple of minutes we hold you guys up is also extra pennies in your wages from duty time and time logged at someone elses expense.
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Speaking of being held.
Got caught at a holding point once for about 20mins while four harvards got their act together, taxied and took off.
Got the
at the time. If you can not take a joke you should not have joined I suppose...
Got caught at a holding point once for about 20mins while four harvards got their act together, taxied and took off.
Got the
at the time. If you can not take a joke you should not have joined I suppose...
Antiskid
$20 cost for 10 mins as compared $100 plus for larger aircraft. Seems to speak for itself. ATC try to reduce costs for everybody, but have to prioritise. Seems the training aircraft are at the bottom of the food chain.
You will be logging the time on the ground anyway. "Chock to chock" they say. I understand you would rather be in the air. But everyone has gone through it at some stage
$20 cost for 10 mins as compared $100 plus for larger aircraft. Seems to speak for itself. ATC try to reduce costs for everybody, but have to prioritise. Seems the training aircraft are at the bottom of the food chain.
You will be logging the time on the ground anyway. "Chock to chock" they say. I understand you would rather be in the air. But everyone has gone through it at some stage
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Speaking of Training Aircraft (IFR)....
Can anybody enlighten me please....
Do the instructors put in their flight plans (I suppose they file them..??) what they are going to do and where???
I.E. 2 laps of the Blah hold followed by the Blah approach, std miss, and onwards to that place?
Just the controllers always seem to be asking them what's going to happen after this approach or that hold?
Can anybody enlighten me please....
Do the instructors put in their flight plans (I suppose they file them..??) what they are going to do and where???
I.E. 2 laps of the Blah hold followed by the Blah approach, std miss, and onwards to that place?
Just the controllers always seem to be asking them what's going to happen after this approach or that hold?
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They should do, I'm not an instructor but, when I did my IR, and on currency, you should put on the plan that it is a training flight, not the holds but the number of approaches, then control ask for your intentions en-route. They seem to have simplified the readback for this by specific training Packs.
Yes, for a limited time you get (for example HN) Pack 1: vor/dme via arc, map, hold(s), ndb app, map and onwards to aa. Plus if you call in the next 10 min you also recieve a free set of ginsu knives ???
Nike-
as I said in another tipic, you always seem to be on the defensive about everything, chill the beans mate !!! Your posts do have a little sarcastic tone to them, they would not be that bad if not for the little end comment tho.
Do you think that after flying for 20 plus years your r/t will be absolutely text book.
They know what they have been told so why clutter up the radio on twr freq on a busy day. Controllers probably like it cause of the lack of congestion, simplified by a grunt or whatever.
Yes, for a limited time you get (for example HN) Pack 1: vor/dme via arc, map, hold(s), ndb app, map and onwards to aa. Plus if you call in the next 10 min you also recieve a free set of ginsu knives ???
Nike-
as I said in another tipic, you always seem to be on the defensive about everything, chill the beans mate !!! Your posts do have a little sarcastic tone to them, they would not be that bad if not for the little end comment tho.
Do you think that after flying for 20 plus years your r/t will be absolutely text book.
They know what they have been told so why clutter up the radio on twr freq on a busy day. Controllers probably like it cause of the lack of congestion, simplified by a grunt or whatever.
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The planning manual does give a fairly good discription of what radio calls are supposed to be.
If you can not understand this, there are some quite good ICAO documents as well. (As NZ does claim to be an ICAO country.)
My experience with training schools in NZ is that many do tend to teach incorrect radio terminology. This is mainly due to the way in which the instructor was taught by his/her instructor.
The standard radio calls are fairly simple. So lets try and do it right. It's not that hard.
As mentioned previously, position reports have a very standard format. Position, Time, Altitude, Next Postion, Time (PTA ETA). There is no need to say anything more or anything less.
For those of you who ever intend to work overseas it is in your best interests to try and learn and get used to using the correct ICAO terminology.
If you can not understand this, there are some quite good ICAO documents as well. (As NZ does claim to be an ICAO country.)
My experience with training schools in NZ is that many do tend to teach incorrect radio terminology. This is mainly due to the way in which the instructor was taught by his/her instructor.
The standard radio calls are fairly simple. So lets try and do it right. It's not that hard.
As mentioned previously, position reports have a very standard format. Position, Time, Altitude, Next Postion, Time (PTA ETA). There is no need to say anything more or anything less.
For those of you who ever intend to work overseas it is in your best interests to try and learn and get used to using the correct ICAO terminology.
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The aerodrome I fly out of requires a VFR dep to join a promulgated route. But everytime I use the "flight rules zulu flightplan" phrase once airborne I get the impression ATC think I've gone loopy.
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Cripes Mate!
It's only been in 7 months, let the poor overworked & underpaid ATCOs catch up.....
Although I noticed that the AIP used that word there... "Estimate"
It's only been in 7 months, let the poor overworked & underpaid ATCOs catch up.....
Although I noticed that the AIP used that word there... "Estimate"
Last edited by CT7; 30th Jun 2003 at 19:10.
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NZ R/T ?
I was stunned to hear the attidue of the few ATC people in NZ, I was taxying once at NZRO , he was telling an aircraft which was joinging from the eastern sector that he is un inteligible,,, surpirese surprise ,,,? what kind of ATC procedue is this, poor guy was asking instruction to jointhe circuit, but I was stunned , we never hear , end of the day I got to know him ( the Aircraft) was a student , so the ATC should help them , they get paid becuase of these studen pilots , when I spoke to this chap at the club he showed me the map and said that the reference point in the map is not as big as real on the ground , yes indeed it is not , so whos fault is that ,,, so the NZRO should eat his words. they pay money for the Airways of NZ to opereate this crap Aritraffick system
Is they a rule clause where we can find it from the ICAO to frama these dodgy ATC and Pilots who make dumb commentsn on the Radio. I have been flying for the decade we never hear these things in Aussi , People should lead by examples, flying is a self discpiline ,
Prop
Is they a rule clause where we can find it from the ICAO to frama these dodgy ATC and Pilots who make dumb commentsn on the Radio. I have been flying for the decade we never hear these things in Aussi , People should lead by examples, flying is a self discpiline ,
Prop