To Kaptin M
Thread Starter
To Kaptin M
I rarely post here but I have just read your post on Ansett pilots in Cambodia, I must say you appear a sad person.
I remember you from our days in Cesnock and my memories were that you were a delightfull bloke and a lot of fun.
What has happened to you, where did that person go?
I remember you from our days in Cesnock and my memories were that you were a delightfull bloke and a lot of fun.
What has happened to you, where did that person go?
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I guess it disappeared around 13 years ago, when people that you thought to be friends or whom you could trust to be there when it mattered, be it in your personal life, or on a flight deck, disregarded their previous values, some for opportunism or others who cracked under the pressure of 'take it now or it could be gone forever' from their former companies or even their families.
Fortunately I wasn't directly involved, but was close enough, to understand, whilst not condone or agree with those who returned.
Pre 89, like most, I would have parted with my right testicle for the chance to fly for an Airline, but to accept a position in that environment would have been worse than total castration. The price was simply too high.
Even before the recent demise of Ansett, I still sleep comfortably in the knowledge that my decision was correct, and that my ethics are still intact.
The once proud Anzac spirit of protect your mates, died in 89.
From someone who doesn't know Kaptain M, I hope bob_bowne, this may explain how he feels
Fortunately I wasn't directly involved, but was close enough, to understand, whilst not condone or agree with those who returned.
Pre 89, like most, I would have parted with my right testicle for the chance to fly for an Airline, but to accept a position in that environment would have been worse than total castration. The price was simply too high.
Even before the recent demise of Ansett, I still sleep comfortably in the knowledge that my decision was correct, and that my ethics are still intact.
The once proud Anzac spirit of protect your mates, died in 89.
From someone who doesn't know Kaptain M, I hope bob_bowne, this may explain how he feels
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Very perceptive, Marauder - you have summed it up far better than I would have. Thank you.
But FYI, Bob, I presently have one of my ex Space Academy, Blue Flight course companions staying with me in Japan, for 5 days.
He was also ex-Ansett, and SQ, then later Cargolux, and National Jet, but is now out of aviation.
Cessnock was fun days - there`s been a lot of water pass under the bridge since then - but Life, for me at least, is still what one makes of it.
And I`m enjoying it, although with another little M on the way, it might be time to cut out (or off) some of the more expensive habits!!
There`ll be 3 of us Aussies in a tiny little town in Kyushu having one or two tonight for friends we HAVE, and those we thought were our friends.
And of course to Sparkie, Black Dog (NASA), and Mrs J!!
But FYI, Bob, I presently have one of my ex Space Academy, Blue Flight course companions staying with me in Japan, for 5 days.
He was also ex-Ansett, and SQ, then later Cargolux, and National Jet, but is now out of aviation.
Cessnock was fun days - there`s been a lot of water pass under the bridge since then - but Life, for me at least, is still what one makes of it.
And I`m enjoying it, although with another little M on the way, it might be time to cut out (or off) some of the more expensive habits!!
There`ll be 3 of us Aussies in a tiny little town in Kyushu having one or two tonight for friends we HAVE, and those we thought were our friends.
And of course to Sparkie, Black Dog (NASA), and Mrs J!!
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The once proud Anzac spirit of protect your mates, died in 89.
Let's stick to the facts mate. The Anzac spirit (if there is such a thing) was forged as a result of fighting for your country.
1989 certainly WAS NOT. It might have been a matter of fighting for your beliefs, but definitely DID NOT involve risking your life (and in most instances), dying for your country.
GET YOUR HAND OFF IT!!!!!
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The worse part about this whole post is it has become personal. The 1989 industrial action was doomed before it began, blind Freddy could see that the size of the ambit claim was over the top.
While I believe unity is the key to every industrial action designed to achieve change and improved conditions, the whole strategy of the AFAP was suicidal in concept and execution.
The anger and angst between those who stayed out and those who went back is well and truly past its use by date.
Maybe we should approach Don King and invite all and sundry to get in the ring and punch the crap out of each other as therapy and the means to end once and for all the energy sapping belligerence.
After televising it worldwide, collecting the royalties and divvying up the cash, what would have been achieved.....NOTHING. we can't change the past... Get over it ....
While I believe unity is the key to every industrial action designed to achieve change and improved conditions, the whole strategy of the AFAP was suicidal in concept and execution.
The anger and angst between those who stayed out and those who went back is well and truly past its use by date.
Maybe we should approach Don King and invite all and sundry to get in the ring and punch the crap out of each other as therapy and the means to end once and for all the energy sapping belligerence.
After televising it worldwide, collecting the royalties and divvying up the cash, what would have been achieved.....NOTHING. we can't change the past... Get over it ....
Just Binos
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Oh dear, the Siamese Twins, Amos and Tool Time are back in tandem operation. Not a reasonable word to be heard from either of them.
Hugh Jarse actually spoke a lot of sense, and Kaptin M is capable of accepting, albeit reluctantly, that the world doesn't begin and end with 1989. The rest of the protagonists in this sad epic seem destined to repeat their sad chorus ad infinitum. Does it make it better or worse that I had or have nothing to do with the original dispute? Am I consigned to disdain for not knowing what I'm talking about, or is an untainted view perhaps in some way more valid? Methinks I know the answer(s) to that one.
Carry on, boys, but but for the edification of those you profess to be trying to educate, I can tell you that the less personal invective your argument contains, the more likely it is to be recognised by those not involved. And I hate to tell you what you really know, but those who were not involved, in any way, are the ones who are now filling the seats, and their innocent question is: 1989? What is all the fuss about? It's an awful and difficult acceptance that the world moves on, and the previous generation, including me, are regarded as irrelevant.
Kaptin M, good luck with the new sprog!
Hugh Jarse actually spoke a lot of sense, and Kaptin M is capable of accepting, albeit reluctantly, that the world doesn't begin and end with 1989. The rest of the protagonists in this sad epic seem destined to repeat their sad chorus ad infinitum. Does it make it better or worse that I had or have nothing to do with the original dispute? Am I consigned to disdain for not knowing what I'm talking about, or is an untainted view perhaps in some way more valid? Methinks I know the answer(s) to that one.
Carry on, boys, but but for the edification of those you profess to be trying to educate, I can tell you that the less personal invective your argument contains, the more likely it is to be recognised by those not involved. And I hate to tell you what you really know, but those who were not involved, in any way, are the ones who are now filling the seats, and their innocent question is: 1989? What is all the fuss about? It's an awful and difficult acceptance that the world moves on, and the previous generation, including me, are regarded as irrelevant.
Kaptin M, good luck with the new sprog!
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Ah!...the scab puppets are coming out of the woodwork again as they do so often when you remind them of the weakness of certain people back in 89'.
Amazing that so many people have scab tendencies and wish to be tarred with the same brush!
Oh well!...takes all types I guess!
Amazing that so many people have scab tendencies and wish to be tarred with the same brush!
Oh well!...takes all types I guess!
Just Binos
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It sure does, Amos. Two types in particular. One is capable of seeing the existence of two sides.
The other chooses to spend his life rotting away from the inside with bitterness, convinced that this view is justified by his noble stand on good aussie values in a dispute forgotten by everybody in Australia except a couple of thousand diehards who can't accept that time has moved along.
Err, is there any way you would like to justify the "scab puppet" tag concerning me? I would be most enlightened.
The other chooses to spend his life rotting away from the inside with bitterness, convinced that this view is justified by his noble stand on good aussie values in a dispute forgotten by everybody in Australia except a couple of thousand diehards who can't accept that time has moved along.
Err, is there any way you would like to justify the "scab puppet" tag concerning me? I would be most enlightened.
PPRuNette
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Oh geez, another M to currupt society 
Let's hope MrsM's genes rule once again, cos you're fugly
Approximately when should we prepare for this?
And when you are here next time, get your buttocks up the coast for a few ales.
Congratulations
GG
Let's hope MrsM's genes rule once again, cos you're fugly
Approximately when should we prepare for this?
And when you are here next time, get your buttocks up the coast for a few ales.
Congratulations
GG
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I wouldn't expect anything different from TTT and Amos
The point I was trying to make is that it is poor form to draw a comparison between an industrial dispute and and an event in history that cost many thousands of lives...
I'm surprised you haven't drawn an analogy to the Jewish Holocaust.
That would be equally repulsive.
The point I was trying to make is that it is poor form to draw a comparison between an industrial dispute and and an event in history that cost many thousands of lives...
I'm surprised you haven't drawn an analogy to the Jewish Holocaust.
That would be equally repulsive.
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Quote:"The worse part about this whole post is it has become personal. The 1989 industrial action was doomed before it began, blind Freddy could see that the size of the ambit claim was over the top.
While I believe unity is the key to every industrial action designed to achieve change and improved conditions, the whole strategy of the AFAP was suicidal in concept and execution." Unquote.
Now, T-R, whatever that means, let's see if we can locate your logic.
"Doomed before it began" - then you say "the key to every industrial action is unity."
Let me remind you old boy, or girl as the case may be, (one mustn't assume too much), that at secret ballot in '89 there was a 95% vote by the AFAP membership involved. Now, by any standards, that is unity.
Let me also remind you, T-R, and BB, (AKA HJ), that 22% scabbed.
Let's just say, that the 5% who voted against the AFAP resolution scabbed. That would represent about 83 pilots. And let's just assume that that 5% scabbed over the same time frame.
It is then also reasonable to assume that the Australian public might not have been so well disposed towards the fact that nearly all of their country's airline aircraft being trotted around the Australian by foreign scabs.
But, back to the whole 22% who scabbed, these turkeys demonstrated their true contempt for all that is truly Australian, for the sake of their former mates' pay packet, offered to them by a disgraceful, and un-Australian, now deceased Abeles. He cannot be libelled, being well and truly dead.
So it is a fact, that the turkeys who scabbed, and were happy to replace their friends with lots of GA and a few foreign scabs, are as much a disgrace to the Australian way of mateship and solidarity they professed at secret ballot, as Abeles, the bedroom bandicoot, and the little cherub mates were and are.
As for bleatings by binocs and others about posts being personal, not so. Hard to be personal when addressing a pseudonym.
Of course, the owner of the pseudonym feels offended, but then he or she is still anonymous.
While I believe unity is the key to every industrial action designed to achieve change and improved conditions, the whole strategy of the AFAP was suicidal in concept and execution." Unquote.
Now, T-R, whatever that means, let's see if we can locate your logic.
"Doomed before it began" - then you say "the key to every industrial action is unity."
Let me remind you old boy, or girl as the case may be, (one mustn't assume too much), that at secret ballot in '89 there was a 95% vote by the AFAP membership involved. Now, by any standards, that is unity.
Let me also remind you, T-R, and BB, (AKA HJ), that 22% scabbed.
Let's just say, that the 5% who voted against the AFAP resolution scabbed. That would represent about 83 pilots. And let's just assume that that 5% scabbed over the same time frame.
It is then also reasonable to assume that the Australian public might not have been so well disposed towards the fact that nearly all of their country's airline aircraft being trotted around the Australian by foreign scabs.
But, back to the whole 22% who scabbed, these turkeys demonstrated their true contempt for all that is truly Australian, for the sake of their former mates' pay packet, offered to them by a disgraceful, and un-Australian, now deceased Abeles. He cannot be libelled, being well and truly dead.
So it is a fact, that the turkeys who scabbed, and were happy to replace their friends with lots of GA and a few foreign scabs, are as much a disgrace to the Australian way of mateship and solidarity they professed at secret ballot, as Abeles, the bedroom bandicoot, and the little cherub mates were and are.
As for bleatings by binocs and others about posts being personal, not so. Hard to be personal when addressing a pseudonym.
Of course, the owner of the pseudonym feels offended, but then he or she is still anonymous.
I'm with you Jarse. I find it appalling an industrial dispute involving a few dissatisfied protagonists should be compared to national values established over a century of international conflict, from which many Australians did not return.
Move on. This is the 21st century!
Move on. This is the 21st century!
Nunc est bibendum
TTT, you may reckon you have HJ but you're wrong on his identity. Guess again.
BTW, I can see both sides here. Comparing '89 to Gallipolli (or any armed conflict) is just crass. Comparing the 'spirit' and beliefs of those who fought (sticking up for your mate etc) and comparing that to the spirit that abounds in Australia today is worthy of discussion. It may that we have changed, it may be that our perception of ANZAC is based on poor evidence.
Still, both can be discussed without reverting to name calling you morons! h
BTW, I can see both sides here. Comparing '89 to Gallipolli (or any armed conflict) is just crass. Comparing the 'spirit' and beliefs of those who fought (sticking up for your mate etc) and comparing that to the spirit that abounds in Australia today is worthy of discussion. It may that we have changed, it may be that our perception of ANZAC is based on poor evidence.
Still, both can be discussed without reverting to name calling you morons!
h
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No, amos2, HJ and I are not related, but I'd be proud to be. As a serviceman of 22 years, I agree with his pertinent destruction of the pathetic arguments of you and your kind, e.g. Marauder. Perhaps you should all look to the treatment of yourselves by the organisation which supposedly represented your interests in the dispute of 89, as well as the exhibtion of selfish bloody greed inherent in your claim in the first instance. No restraint for the AFAP, no way! "we were in danger of losing too much ground in the pay stakes, and wished to reinstate our standing in the public's eye as professionals equated with lawyers, judges, doctors, etc., etc." I have no argument with anyone trying to better their lot, but NOT at the risk of bringing down the rest of the company in the achievement of that aim, at the same time as expecting support from everyone else. As on of the AFAP people put it to me, "support us in this and, when it is your turn, we'll support you". Bulldust!! All the AFAP wanted was the restoration of a power base for themselves and, by default, their members. Now, by your reckoning, since I am/was not a pilot, I will probably be one of your "scab puppets", and I'll wear that description, it means nothing to me, any more than you do. You are an irrelevance in the field of Australian aviation, long may you remain so. Just remember, YOU RESIGNED from employment, don't complain when someone takes a vacancy you created in your own interest. While I'm on the subject, please tell me how many GA pilots lost work through ex-airline people coming back to GA, as opposed to GA going to the airlines? There was a great deal of anger towards your mob at Moorabbin for a long time!
The two people for whom I have any respect in these posts have been KaptinM and Slasher, the former for his continued restraint and constructive argument, however much I disagree with them, and Slasher for the vitriol and anger, which I never doubted was genuine. You, by comparison, are a "sniper", that is you manufacture the bullets for someone else to fire, but don't have the guts to formulate your own argument in support. Go away, you unpleasant little man, back to wherever it is in Asia you now ply your trade, sorry!, profession!
TheNightOwl.
The two people for whom I have any respect in these posts have been KaptinM and Slasher, the former for his continued restraint and constructive argument, however much I disagree with them, and Slasher for the vitriol and anger, which I never doubted was genuine. You, by comparison, are a "sniper", that is you manufacture the bullets for someone else to fire, but don't have the guts to formulate your own argument in support. Go away, you unpleasant little man, back to wherever it is in Asia you now ply your trade, sorry!, profession!
TheNightOwl.
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TTT
Unity is one thing, stupidity quite another. Did the AFAP seek a reasonable and fair pay rise ? maybe 5 - 10 % ?.... Unity on this cause would have been fair, accepted by the public and hard for AN to argue against.
NO NO the AFAP and all the sheep that followed demanded almost 30%, and in the process tried to dictate their terms to the rest of the Australian people. That TTT was from a political and ethical and moral point of view SUICIDAL. Suddenly the Mr & Mrs Battlers of Australia were being DICTATED to by a select group, whose ambit claim was almost as much as the Battlers annual salary. (see how it is nolonger employee v employer dispute)
Now the AFAP being so smart had, unwhittingly united the AN management and Australian public against them and blind Freddy could see the inevitable out come, to top it off Bob Hawke the then Prime Minister (and former head of the ACTU) even jumped on the wagon. Why ? because nobody likes being dictated to and when someone is being screwed, they like to be kissed first.
Yes TTT unity is a great thing and the AFAP experienced the full force of it, it is all a matter of being reasonable & fair. The AFAP was NOT.
If there should be any animosity, it should be toward the incompetent leadership of the AFAP at the time and the SUICIDAL gamble approved by them with their members careers. If they had taken a more diplomatic, and reasoned approach then, we most surely would not be listening to the rhetoric now.
Being Fairdinkum is all about being Australian, Fair and dinkum. Everyone deserving a Fair go is all about being Australian. There was nothing fairdinkum about the dictatorial methods employed by the AFAP and the Australian public were not being given a fair go.
The only thing fairdinkum about this whole sordid affaire was that the AFAP were acting like fairdinkum rsoles and fairdinkum screwed its membership.
Aim your hostilities toward the AFAP who gambled and lost their members careers.
Unity is one thing, stupidity quite another. Did the AFAP seek a reasonable and fair pay rise ? maybe 5 - 10 % ?.... Unity on this cause would have been fair, accepted by the public and hard for AN to argue against.
NO NO the AFAP and all the sheep that followed demanded almost 30%, and in the process tried to dictate their terms to the rest of the Australian people. That TTT was from a political and ethical and moral point of view SUICIDAL. Suddenly the Mr & Mrs Battlers of Australia were being DICTATED to by a select group, whose ambit claim was almost as much as the Battlers annual salary. (see how it is nolonger employee v employer dispute)
Now the AFAP being so smart had, unwhittingly united the AN management and Australian public against them and blind Freddy could see the inevitable out come, to top it off Bob Hawke the then Prime Minister (and former head of the ACTU) even jumped on the wagon. Why ? because nobody likes being dictated to and when someone is being screwed, they like to be kissed first.
Yes TTT unity is a great thing and the AFAP experienced the full force of it, it is all a matter of being reasonable & fair. The AFAP was NOT.
If there should be any animosity, it should be toward the incompetent leadership of the AFAP at the time and the SUICIDAL gamble approved by them with their members careers. If they had taken a more diplomatic, and reasoned approach then, we most surely would not be listening to the rhetoric now.
Being Fairdinkum is all about being Australian, Fair and dinkum. Everyone deserving a Fair go is all about being Australian. There was nothing fairdinkum about the dictatorial methods employed by the AFAP and the Australian public were not being given a fair go.
The only thing fairdinkum about this whole sordid affaire was that the AFAP were acting like fairdinkum rsoles and fairdinkum screwed its membership.
Aim your hostilities toward the AFAP who gambled and lost their members careers.