To Kaptin M

[thermo-riser]

TTT

Take a look at the number of personal references and denigrations contained in your most venomous posts. You be-little anyone who holds a different point of view than your own.

I seem to recall that Forrest Gump had a phrase that goes, “stupid is as stupid does” and I submit the AFAP was stupid and the 30% ambit claim was stupid…..

These are the facts, whatever the subliminal intent of the AFAP in starting the industrial action in the first place 30% was to coin your favourite word STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

So here we are almost 14 years down the track still listening to the empty platitudes and rhetoric of an indecisive (yes you changed your mind more than once during the dispute) and very bitter and twisted and tortured minority of souls, who are hell bent on foisting their views on everyone else.

When an action is planned and executed and lost, it is the leadership that must be held accountable and must accept responsibility …..

It would have made no difference whatsoever if all the Pilots had stood firm…30% was STUPID when there were more than enough pilots in the industry to go around.

Redirect your anger towards those in the AFAP who ill advised you.

Could it be that with the benefit of hind sight, many feel a sense of guilt and foolishness at having followed like a sheep to the slaughter…..????

BTW I also remember the ubiquitous “Bex” powder, but it was more than 30 years ago……….

[Tool Time Two]

You have been told, T-R, numerous times in this forum, the facts.
Choosing not to accept them is your affair.
Equally, I do not choose, but know you are hopelessly incorrect.
NOWL's membership of the ETU explains his foolishness relative to Australian unionism, and at a guess, given he didn't know what a Bex was, indicates he may have emerged from Pommieland.
But one thing he doesn't know, despite his claim, and assuming I have the context he wants to use correct, is what it takes to make a pilot.
Punching software into a sim. computer won't tell him.
Before he blasts RM Ansett too much, perhaps he should look at history more closely, and see who stripped the company he used to work for.
As for AN going under - who cares - it wasn't the Ansett most of us knew before Fat Man and Dirty Digger got it anyway.
PS. By the way, I never said I held GS in contempt, just the other way around, as NOWL's post(s) clearly define.

[thermo-riser]

TTT

The one fact you chose to totally ignore is , THE AFAP LOST THE BATTLE........

GET OVER IT... MOVE ON ....

[Kaptin M]

thermo-riser, your over-simplification of the 1989 dispute would indicate that you have either not researched the subject, or are incapable of understanding it eg. your statement, "..there were more than enough pilots in the industry to go around." is TOTALLY incorrect in the context of that time, and under the (then) and CURRENT Australian immigration laws.
Run off and do some study, if you want to be taken seriously.

Skimming through the post, it appears that some of the contributors are putting words into Tool Time's mouth.
he mentioned the SPIRIT of ANZAC, and was immediately taken to task.
One doesn't have to engage in active combat to possess the SPIRIT of ANZAC!!

Similarly, the BEX quip....lie down and take a BEX....has now been misconstrued by sick minds to suggest that TT or Amos was pointing the bone at poor old TNO, and wishing some sort of curse on him that would reek pain and renal disfunction on his body.
I guess the same small minds would have had TNO thinking the witch doctors had pointed the liver sclerosis bone at him, had he been advised to sit down and have a coldie (or a glass of wine.).

BTW, thermo, in your opinion the AFAP may have lost the battle, but we DIDN'T lose the WAR!!

Oh yes, I've been told that apparently I get better looking after about a dozen bourbons, Go Girl - I try it on a regular basis, but haven't seen any improvement yet. I do agree with your sentiments - I hope the poor little ****** has got more of Mrs M's genes..she's not a bad looker, even if I do say so myself!!
September 14 is ETA.

[TheNightOwl]

Agreed, TTT, and I hereby express my SINCERE apologies to the memory of RMA. I have just re-read my post, and want to make clear that my intent was to criticise the managers POST RMA, i.e. the cretins who forced him out and those who followed, from both sides of the Tasman. I never knew the man, but the tales I have heard of his exploits, along with having just read Geoff Easdown's book, make him a bit of a legend in my eyes, as well as of other Aussies.
Note: I said "other Aussies", for that is now my nationality. Your assumption that I emanated from Pommieland was almost correct, TTT, but not quite. If you were referring to Britain, then you are correct, but from the Scottish part, and therefore I do not qualify for the accepted definition of "Pommie". I don't suppose it make one iota of difference to you, and nor should it, but it is important to me.

So tell me, TTT, just what does it take to make a pilot? Am I not paying you due deference, is that it? I said I knew ..."the standards necessary to become a pilot, and to remain one", or words to that effect, and ..."what they go through and give up to achieve their aims" That, and nothing more, was what I meant. If you are of the opinion that pilots are a breed apart, then believe me, I have seen enough of the "steely-eyed, furrowed-brow, squinting into the distance" to realise the falsity of it.
TTT, pilots are people, with ALL the frailties and short-comings of we lesser, earth-bound mortals and, had you paid attention to what you were reading in my post, you'd have realised that I have a huge admiration for pilots and the job they do. I'd LOVE to have been one, once upon a time, 'cos I love being airborne, but it wasn't possible. Don't get me wrong, I despise Hawke for his attempted denigration of pilots during the dispute, but nor do I subscribe to the "steely-eyed killer" ethos I endured in the Air Force.
My "foolishness", as you call it, was engendered by the attitudes I encountered from union members and officials alike, and on that I base my dislike of, and contempt for, the "one-for-all" bulldust you espouse. Great in theory, but I have yet to see an instance of it working in reality. Sure, it is easy to band together when your back is against the wall with a recalcitrant employer /group but, at other times, I have found it vital to watch your back or someone will shaft you, and if you expect me to believe that pilots are ANY different, not a chance!! It's sad to relate but, even in my last union, there was no cohesion and everyone had an agenda of some sort. Sorry, mate, but no way will I ever believe people are sufficiently altruistic to consider the wishes of others before themselves. For evidence from your own post, just re-read the penultimate line ..."As for AN going under.." Just because AN hadn't stayed in a time warp, and kicked you out of your comfort zone, it didn't matter that the company went under. Nice one! Very "all together"! What about the 16000 who went under?

TheNightOwl.

[mo_gravy]

throw some gravy™ on the fire

i-uh... i against i,
flesha my flesh an
minduh my mind...
Massive Attack said that

i-uh.. think what's important to remember here, fans, is that no one cares.

during '89 the current new gen of young turk drivers was more worried about will i ever get my endaway the first time than will i get 30%.

after school finished and lacking a playstation, he slouched in his armchair training his already fattening @rse for his as-yet un-realised ambition ---un-foreseen as his natural predisposition towards laziness has not yet dictated his inevitable awareness of and gravitation to the proud primal profession of pilate--- he saw b mccarthy on telly as he flicked (remote-lessly) through the channels looking for monkey magic or beverly hillbillies. and he was less likely to wonder: is B the hero of the hour than might he have a 16yo daughter who puts out

forget groundhog day, watch that other classic of the ages, "beavis and butthead do america"... check out what those two dudes are focussed on you'll see what most guys who are flying these days were thinking about during the pilots strike.

gravy™

[amos2]

You don't think a self imposed 5 point penalty might be in order here Woomera with your attempt to hi jack this thread with that Bex dissitation?
GOD help us if we mentioned speeder springs or poppet valves to you!!

PS: you got the wrong web site M-g...try the junior flyers club!

[thermo-riser]

How complicated do you want to make it KM & TTT...... The AFAP picked a blue, got got their lights punched out and after crawling back to their collective feet 14 years ago commenced to bleat about, how unfair everything was.....

Yes the immigration laws were very tight at the time, however since the AFAP had pi$sed the whole of the Australian travelling public, AN management and the former head of the whole union movement (then PM Bobbie Hawke) off with their unrealistic, in defensible 30% ambit claim, there was no way that Australia was goin to be held to Ransom.

Quite simply the rules were changed to defeat the AFAP, which is exactly what every government does when a gun is pointed at it.

The fact is 30% is STUPID, SUICIDAL and Unacceptable.. Blame the AFAP leadership......

[Woomera]

amos 2 just thought I'd lighten it up a bit.

Now about those poppet valves and springs, when I were a lad at the Le Rhone factory................

[Kaptin M]

Sounds like you've got a good GRIP on it, t-r
But you give the little Silver Budgie too much credit for having the brains to dream up the temporary changes to the Oz Constitution that were played out.
Rumour has it that that strategy came from within Ansett legal circles - a husband and wife duet!!

Speaking of BEX, it couldn't have been ALL that bad. I remember a certain old lady who used to live on the same floor of flats I dwelt in during the '70's. She used to take several packets of them over the day, and was always in a "happy" frame of mind (with pupils the size of door handles!!)...nothing to do with the G&T's she washed them down with, I guess.

And on that subject, whatever happened to Vincents APC powders??

[greybeard]

Gidday,

There was a dispute.
Some people went back.
Some people did not.
Those who "did not" describe those who did in a "particular way".
Those "who did" made sure those who "did not" could never work for their old employers again.(12 or so exceptions)
The Ansett part of those "who did" went gutz up and those who "did not" were glad it happened to "the dids", sad for the rest who were tossed out as there were some great people still there.
Some of the "described people" had to move overseas to places where those who "did not" were living.

That is life, don't have to like the "who dids", don't have to fly with them, enjoy their discomfort if it's seen and even the locals don't seem to be too keen on them either.

Get over it? NEVER,
Forgive? NEVER,
Forget? NEVER

[thermo-riser]

Here we go again, take another look at the comments directed to the person and not the subject.

Out of curiosity does anybody really know how the AFAP came up with the magic 30% ambit claim?? Was it BM? Who?

There has been so much discussion over who did what, who didn't do that etc etc, but nobody has come forth to give credible account to justify the 30% ambit claim..

At 18-24 stick hours per month average, how could any AFAP member justify the size of the claim. You do the math divide the proposed annual salary (with 30% ambit claim) by yearly stick hours......

In 1989 the average Australian process worker in a factory - council worker - office clerk - taxi driver - nurse - copper - bus driver - road worker - carpenter - mechanic - shop assistant etc earned between $ 23,000.00 & 38,000.00 per annum for a 38 hour week.

Then along come the arrogant AFAP leadership and demand a pay increase in line with the average wager earner annual salary.

Someone please supply a credible account of how the 30% was fair & dinkum arrived at .... and how it was justified given the minimal hours flown.

I look forward to reading the post that is able to Justify this incredible amount...

Maybe BM might care to chip in here!

[Kaptin M]

t-r, you're wasting a lot of bandwidth by asking questions that could be answered by doing a little research yourself - you conveniently appear to be able to quote 1989 salaries for non and semi-skilled workers - and have plucked some mythical 18-24 stick hours from somewhere, yet claim you cannot find how the ambit log of 29.47% was comprised!
Or do a check of the D&G archives for a thread titled, The BEST thing about 1989.

However, FYI, quoting from the book Sky Pirates, "The total claim was (also) meant to reflect a comparison with salary movements of other professional groups, as well as unspecified improvements in productivity which pilots claimed had gone unrewarded.
McCarthy's team arrived at the magical number of 29.47 per cent by adding to 21 per cent the compounded effect of 7 per cent for projected inflation over the next year.

[VR-HFX]

1989 seems like a lifetime ago for me but obviously not for many posting on this thread.

I vividly recall at the time that myself and many of my colleagues in HK were gobsmacked at the original ambit claim that led to the lights being turned out.

The PR battle was lost on the first day. Public opinion was always agin the AFAP. Abeles was ruthless in his prosecution of the end-game.

And now, those that returned in 89 to Ansett and those that joined them have had their lights put out.

Isn't that enough misery for one lifetime.

I recently re-read Alex Paterson's treatise. This time as an historical document. It is well researched and well articulated. I recommend everyone have another read.

It is however an historical document. The main protaganist is dead as is the company.

Abeles would be laughing in Hades if he had access to pprune. I for one would not be give him the satisfaction.

[thermo-riser]

KM

On the contrary I just wanted to hear a credible argument to substantiate a 30% ambit claim.... STILL WAITING...

Are you contending that the AFAP had no idea what the Battlers & Back bone of Australia were earning ? Are you saying that the AFAP had no idea why the majority of Australians were against them ?..

If you are then you are dead right, the AFAP were completely out of touch with the Australian public and reality. That gave Sir P all he needed.. again STUPID.

I recall a young woman on tv crying her guts out over not being able to make it to her dying mothers bed side because of the dispute. Ok not the AFAP's problem right ? Dead wrong the viewing public (myself included) got a lump in the throat... she never made it to her mother.. she worked 40 hours a week for $21,000.00 per annum and had to borrow the money for a ticket, which she never got to use. Did the public think she was getting a fair go ? Did the public sympathise with her plight ?

There would have been hundreds of similar and less emotional stories all over Australia... You think about anger and hate and betrayal, then think about how you would have felt in her shoes. Only wished I could have assisted her. Right there on TV the AFAP lost the Battle, War, and every last shred of credibility..

I bet she will NEVER forget either.. Forgive AFAP members doubt it.. Give a hoot over being betrayed after resigning... Take a dip in lake real.

Still waiting for a CREDIBLE justification of the infamous 30 %.

Not so much venom in the latest post, thats a good sign..

[TANUA]

Kaptin M

You just made a quote from Sky Pirates. I lent my copy to someone ages ago and wonder if you could check how many members of the AFAP actually voted on the final resolution, prior to any Industrial action taking place?

TTT stated earlier- Let me remind you old boy, or girl as the case may be, (one mustn't assume too much), that at secret ballot in '89 there was a 95% vote by the AFAP membership involved. Now, by any standards, that is unity.

I recall that the figure in Sky Pirates was that less than 70% of the total Membership voted and we should present things fairly. Obviously if the total vote represented only 70% of the membership then TTT’s 95% actually equates to appx 65% of the Membership -giving a MANDATE (albeit marginal) that set up the premise for years of heartache to all concerned.

Assuming the above is representative of the actual numbers I think this is where WE all started our self-destruction. Because the mandate appeared so convincing most of our members sat quietly and were not game to speak up for fear of ridicule. MANY members believed that things would turn out all right in the end -even though they did not even take the time to attend the final meetings.

I think we had real problems with overall support from the outset but the AFAP leadership would not allow that to interfere with what they considered was a well thought out campaign. Recent history told them that they would wrap this up in short order and they believed they were acting in our interests.

There are many comments here by people that were not directly involved at the time and despite ones obvious bias I keep saying to anyone that asks or ridicules the “passion” of debate on this forum that “ITS JUST NOT THAT SIMPLE!”

The premise that anyone that did not go back to work is a person of great integrity and beyond moral reproach is just as absurd as the one that says everyone that went back to work is gutless, immoral and a scab in nature. People were confused, frightened, bewildered and without proper direction.

Whilst much dishonesty was displayed by both sides many were very quick to “question” and often “threaten” anyone with a discerning view. This was a huge shortcoming on the AFAP management side- in my opinion and should have been given a much higher priority. As a consequence some considered the AFAP no longer had the means to organise an orderly return to work.-(with respect you considered this for a nano second Kaptin M-I only mention that to illustrate the point -it does not question your veracity in any way shape or form)

Lets consider some “real life” decisions made at the time-

 Did it take courage to stand with others and the AFAP and watch your lifelong career disappear before your eyes?-ABSOLUTELY

 Did it take courage to hold out for years(in some cases) in the hope that some resolution would be found?-ABSOLUTELY

 Did it take courage to move overseas and leave everyone and everything you had worked hard to achieve behind with others in your place-?-ABSOLUTELY

 Did it take courage to say openly to friends and colleagues that I don’t believe the AFAP can resolve this and I am going back to work?-ABSOLUTELY

 Did it take courage to accept that many would never talk to you again or work with you again?-ABSOLUTELY

 Did it take courage to make a stand against the AFAP directives and make a return to work on your own?-ABSOLUTELY

The variations in this theme could go on forever and I chose “absolutely” because of the GT context in An last days(humor has some place!)

I doubt that there is any person that was involved in 1989 that does not wish it had never taken place. Whether this is someone on very high moral ground (self-imposed) or otherwise the feeling is probably much the same.

It is interesting to note that the post dispute pilots were pretty much the same on average -in personality and ability as pre dispute pilots(in my observation). I can hear TTT and AMOS winding up already.

I have always tried to respect each individuals right to have their say on 89 and the events surrounding it. Its very easy to become “one sided” because that then justifies an individuals stance.

There are hundreds of young pilots that worked with Ansett and Australian that had nothing to do with the decisions we made and yet they are surrounded by innuendo all the time.

Accepting that we are similar to a marriage break up in every sense how can WE (non-returnee’s and returnee’s or non-SCABS and SCABS -to keep TTT and Amos happy) as aviators try and get Australian aviation back on an even keel. The AFAP might well be the appropriate vehicle to achieve this?

Is there any prospect that the huge experience base we have can be directed at the interests of the young aviators in Australia or will we continue to destroy one another until the grave? Unfortunately that scenario does nothing for any of our younger colleagues or children that might enter the industry in the future.

There is much discussion about VB not employing ex An pilots that are considered
SCABS or STIKEBREAKERS. Personally I find this stance by JR as quite reasonable because it mirrors, in affect what took place in 1990. Regardless of what view you have its better to have the crew on reasonable terms and to ignore this premise would be foolhardy.

The younger ex An pilots are doing well at VB and its fantastic to see them moving into the LHS so rapidly.

If you ignore the actual wording and just look at the personalities and passion involved in any of the 89 threads you can visualise any AFAP monthly meeting-people bluing left right and center? The only real difference is that most got over whatever offence was caused by the time the next meeting came up-here it is ongoing.

This is an attempt to get US to consider moving forward as a group in the interests of Australian Aviation. Its not necessary to forget or forgive in order to achieve that-we just have to rise to the occasion and RESPECT that vision.

Awaiting incoming----------------------?

[Kaptin M]

Pilots and other "tall poppies" - no, as a matter of fact, ANYONE earning more than the person reading/hearing/watching someone else's bid for a salary increase...no matter HOW small - will be against it, in Australia.
"A pilut is a pilut, 'e must be on a bloody good wicket - they don' do nuffink for der money anyways. Bloody prima donna, glorified bus drivers, struttin' round like they own the place."

There would be NO argument that could be presented to the "Great Unwashed" that will EVER convince them otherwise - and quite frankly I don't care and can't be bothered.

I recall a young woman on tv crying her guts out over not being able to make it to her dying mothers bed side because of the dispute. Ok not the AFAP's problem right ? Dead wrong the viewing public (myself included) got a lump in the throat

...that's pretty tough, but that's life!

I had a similar experience during one of our demonstrations at Brisbane Airport, when a cabiie - you know, salt of the earth, "Battlers & Back bone of Australia" (God knows, aren't we ALL!! ) type, abused me (as one of those greedy, tall poppies) for costing HIM money, because there were no passengers at the airport.

Tough titties. It's a fact of life that not everyone is going to earn top dollar.
I had MY share on my way to SAVING up and PAYING to learn to fly, as a floor coverings and furniture salesman, a labourer at the Sinter Plant of the BHP in Newcastle, and a council labourer mowing parks.....all "Battlers & Back bone of Australia" type stuff.
I SAVED the money (instead of p!55ing it up against the wall) and worked hard to get where I am now.

The 30% was an AMBIT claim, however unless you understand the basic mechanics of contract negotiation and renewal, that point will be lost on you.

BTW, t-r - it was the Airline companies that grounded their aircraft and stood us aside, thereby stopping ALL flights.
But THAT point was missed by you and most of the rest of the GUM's whose ONLY news source is 10 minutes of television, 6 pm most nights!

Try taking a dip out of Lake Cesspit and open your eyes to the REAL world.

Go and do that research.
Try starting here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hing+from+1989

[thermo-riser]

Was The 30 % Ambit claim politically stupid. ABSOLUTELY

Was it totally foreseeable that the dispute would be lost. ABSOLUTELY.

Was it totally foreseeable and STUPID for the AFAP to gamble its members careers. ABSO-BLOODY-LUTELY.

Should the AFAP be held responsible ABSOLUTELY

Do the membership regret their choice to follow like sheep. ABSOLUTELY.

Can anyone justify the 30% ambit claim. ABSOLUTELY NOT...

Where does courage come into the SUICIDE of the AFAP?

30% ABSOLUTELY outrageous.

BTW Still waiting for the Credible Justification ... and great understanding of the basic mechanics of negotiation..... i.e dictate and then refuse to fly at night....... Why do you think AN took the aircraft off you.. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.... Basic isn't it!

[Kaptin M]

A very well thought out, and presented post, TANUA.

I can't say that I subscribe to all of your points of view, however, in general, you have raised some relevant points.

One observation that I would like to make, was the AFAP was the pilots, and I don't believe that there was "much dishonesty" - if any at all - on the part of the Federation.
During the dispute, the branch offices were manned on a daily basis by many rank and file members who had complete, unimpeded access to ALL information flowing through.

Further, I don't recall any "threatening" actions being aimed at those who got wobbly legs. I can honestly say that no-one threatened, abused, or accused me......the self-torment was probably worse than anything someone could have said.

You are correct - because of the protracted length (in time) of the dispute, and the magnitude, everyone who was involved was aware that the decision he/she made was going to be one that would have LIFELONG consequences. Not only on themselves, but also on their families, and especially how they would be seen by their children years later.

A decision to "go back" (ie. to become a "scab" in an industrial dispute) was not something that was going to end upon retirement.

However, decisions were made, and I believe that your post is one that is looking for a way forward, now.
There will NEVER be complete reconciliation between the two sides - careers that had taken decades to shape were destroyed by opportunists, many of whom had had no former relationship with the companies nor the pilots.

Accepting that we are similar to a marriage break up in every sense...

Dick Smith drew this analogy on a morning talk show during 1989, and I felt it was quite an appropriate one, esp. from the point of "outsiders" becoming involved, and metaphorically running off with the bride, and then later actively denying the "husband" access.

Is there any prospect that the huge experience base we have can be directed at the interests of the young aviators in Australia or will we continue to destroy one another until the grave?

Virgin Blue has re-imported a quantity of that experience base back into Australia, by re-employing some of the 1989 pilots. However, the little Silver Budgie, and the now defunct Ansett Pilots' Association ensured that the vast majority was prevented from returning for too many years after.
Australia has lost them forever....so much for Hawke and his claim of making Australia "The Clever Country"!

IMO, I would like to see the Government employ some of these older, ex-airline pilots of the 1989 era in their Aviation departments. In that way some of the experience would be able to be re-injected in from the top.

[TANUA]

Kaptin M

Thank you for your response.

You know I don’t pursue the “tit for tat” routine on this forum. The reason for that is because arguments between the two opposing views remind me very much of discussions that my wife and I sometimes have with our teenage daughters! These can be very long winded and often require a good intellect, in order to survive the “debate” -HOWEVER -at the end of the day, little is ever accomplished. A lot of time and energy is wasted because sometimes that’s just the way “IT IS” and we all have to accept that reality.

Most discussions here involving 89 end in a similar vein and that’s just the way “IT IS”.

If I may, just make a couple of quick responses-from my perspective.

You said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One observation that I would like to make, was the AFAP was the pilots, and I don't believe that there was "much dishonesty" - if any at all - on the part of the Federation.
During the dispute, the branch offices were manned on a daily basis by many rank and file members who had complete, unimpeded access to ALL information flowing through.

Further, I don't recall any "threatening" actions being aimed at those who got wobbly legs. I can honestly say that no-one threatened, abused, or accused me......the self-torment was probably worse than anything someone could have said.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My experience was totally different to yours in this respect and as such the “wobbly legs” and “self torment” lie with someone else and not me. That is not to say that I don’t have the greatest of sympathy for everyone involved in the whole 89 issue because there were no winners, in my view.

You said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not only on themselves, but also on their families, and especially how they would be seen by their children years later.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My children have had a wonderful upbringing in Australia(as I am sure others have all around the globe) and they have no concern about my decision to return to work in 89. My comments were directed specifically at the possibility that you or I might interview our respective children(or younger members of the Industry) for jobs sometime in the future-and that they should be judged on their own merits and nothing else.

Unfortunately some prejudice has already started to show up and that was part of the concept I was suggesting we consider. Until someone breaks the mould we will continue to “self destruct” and that does nothing for the Industry in Australia. Most people involved in 89-despite the horrendous consequences since-have enjoyed the Aviation Industry in Australia at some stage of their career.