The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

S211 Down Port Phillip Bay

Old 19th Nov 2023, 16:29
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Augusta, Georgia, USA (back from Germany again)
Posts: 233
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The link to the advertisement is interesting. It's a lot of hyperbole with errors in it. I assume it's a ride rather than someone flying.

It's interesting to see this as I'm flying one of these in Texas for two days of UPRT in a couple weeks. 7500 Australian for 45 minutes w/ an exchange rate of 0.65 seems to make this about $6500 US for an hour of two airplanes. That's what I'm paying for two one-hour sorties in Texas, but I get to fly the plane.

Sad loss of plane and crew.
LTCTerry is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2023, 18:03
  #22 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,952
Received 859 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by LTCTerry
The link to the advertisement is interesting. It's a lot of hyperbole with errors in it. I assume it's a ride rather than someone flying.

It's interesting to see this as I'm flying one of these in Texas for two days of UPRT in a couple weeks. 7500 Australian for 45 minutes w/ an exchange rate of 0.65 seems to make this about $6500 US for an hour of two airplanes. That's what I'm paying for two one-hour sorties in Texas, but I get to fly the plane.

Sad loss of plane and crew.

It's a nice little jet, underpowered but good for what it was proposed to do. That is one phat little wing on it. had one eject in front of us on an approach into Payalebar many years ago. we terminated the approach, had a lindholme in the bomb bay and dropped it about 60 seconds after the crew went in the water. Got back later the same day to find a soggy lindholme sitting beside the rear stairs. Visiting ops to FPL back to Butterworth, asked how the crew were, "what are?", "the crew that ejected this morning, from the 211, splashed into the water off Pulau Ubin there..." No, not us. we haven't lost a plane in many years". Thanks for the lindholme return. cheers. 是你!

Nice plane. Getting that canopy off for a manual bailout might be interesting. The SOG2 had an excellent mechanical system, Mr H. Robinson would have been proud. The 211 would be about as much fun to pop as the 326H was if the seats are inerted.

Hope the guys got out but a mayday call from the ding wing bird after there is a splash in the water sounds more like a loss of a stab and a prompt termination to flying events, which is not a big survival chance. Hope that is wrong and they did a controlled ditch, that plane would have a highly survivable ditching in controlled case.

P.S.: the remaining Viper handled the aftermath pretty damned well. Wash up will be interesting, but the return was pretty well handled. The aircraft condition was understood by the driver by the time he got near built up areas. A case may be made to have had a recovery to YMML not for the runway but to have some flightpaths that avoided low speed near the airport environment, remaining clear of built up areas. When ATSB looks at that sort of issue, please remember that the airports came first, the houses later, deciding to put a development proximate to an airport is not the pilots concern, that is on the developer. The safety case is pretty simple in this case, the pilot did a credible management of risk, to ALARP, that is the ICAO standard to be applied, not zero risk.
fdr is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by fdr:
Old 19th Nov 2023, 18:54
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Victoria
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Agreed. I was waiting for fuel when DQJ came back to land. I was surprised to see him.om 26 when 18 was the active, but they did change the active at that point.

Taxied out past the hangar and saw it parked up, numerous people in yellow vests standing around. I didn't know at that point and didn't hear until I landed 3 hours later. Sad to hear of the loss.

Regarding safety, o ly.other thought I would've had was AVALON was surely similar distance as Essendon, longer runways and nothing but cows and mud in the flightpath, but we do the best we can in the moment. Good job to the pilot getting their aircraft back safely, probably in a significant amount of shock. I didn't notice any emergency vehicles, so I assume that they felt controllable enough.
DARKMAIZE is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2023, 19:18
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,870
Received 191 Likes on 98 Posts
Point Cook was the other less obvious choice @1371m 17/35.

Sometimes best to stick with what we know when things go bad. Easier to clear out traffic from class C rather class G if needed.
Squawk7700 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Nov 2023, 20:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,870
Received 191 Likes on 98 Posts
Originally Posted by niss200sx
Filming for the Any Fool Can Fly documentary series perhaps?

Unable to post the link here, however a Google search will locate it.
Looks like you were spot on.

https://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...4799bdcabc2843
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2023, 22:07
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Down Under somewhere not all that far from YPAD
Age: 79
Posts: 570
Received 14 Likes on 7 Posts
I took this photo of a sweet looking little jet at Temora back in 2015 not even knowing at the time what type it was. This morning, looking though my archives, I've discovered to my even greater sadness that it seems to be the aircraft which is lost.

RIP




Last edited by FullOppositeRudder; 19th Nov 2023 at 23:54. Reason: Still can't spell :-(
FullOppositeRudder is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2023, 22:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Naming a television show "Any Fool Can Fly" has to be out there with naming a passenger liner "unsinkable"; yes, it might be a great marketing idea but it is probably tempting fate too. If I was a professional pilot (which I am not) I would be taking exception to the notion that having spent thousands of hours training for a job that is relatively complex by comparison to the majority of jobs, some TV show is now going to tell me any fool can fly a plane. Seriously!? I have enough hours to be dangerous, and those hours spent training over the skies of Port Phillip Bay were enough to illustrate to me how much skill, knowledge and awareness (aka professionalism) is required to fly a plane. One of my flying instructors told me you could probably teach a monkey to fly a plane, but we all know that keeping a plane straight and level is just a fraction of the task. If the title of this show was to try and encourage more people to become pilots, then it is misguided. (...and do you want to be sharing the sky with "fools"?).

I work as a professional photographer and so my sympathies go out to the family of the cameraman (and the pilot) who have been lost in this accident. One thing I know as a professional image maker is that we are always wanting to get closer to our subject, even in air-to-air situations, just for the sake of making an image look more dramatic. My hope is that this is not the root cause of this accident... but then again, it is what professionals end up doing to keep executives on some television show happy.

Last edited by Antsl; 19th Nov 2023 at 22:28.
Antsl is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Nov 2023, 23:34
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 552
Received 81 Likes on 63 Posts
Assuming they were following their advertised routine (it would seem from the flight track they might have been), from the advert at https://www.jetworksaviation.com.au/...rmation-sortie :
The two aircraft will perform some air show style formation aerobatic manoeuvresbefore separating into the dynamic combat formation. After criss-crossing over the bay in a modern dogfight, the two aircraft will return in formation passing close to Melbourne’s beautiful skyline.
Flying out of YMMB yesterday at the time of the crash, I can say there was no visible horizon in that location at the time due significant haze, with visibility only getting worse as the day progressed and depth perception would have been really difficult to judge. Basically a really, really, sh**tty day for doing aerobatics of any kind but with the sun shining brightly it seems like they went with it anyways.

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.

Last edited by PiperCameron; 20th Nov 2023 at 01:21. Reason: Fixed link
PiperCameron is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 20th Nov 2023, 00:31
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Victoria
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by PiperCameron

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.
I would assume if they were indeed filming, there should be some good videos for atsb investigation which may assist in identifying a root cause.

Also, you're link goes to a page that does not exist
DARKMAIZE is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 00:34
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,870
Received 191 Likes on 98 Posts
Originally Posted by PiperCameron
Assuming they were following their advertised routine (it would seem from the flight track they might have been), from the advert @ https://www.jetworksaviation.com.au/...mation-sortie:

Flying out of YMMB yesterday at the time of the crash, I can say there was no visible horizon in that location at the time due significant haze, with visibility only getting worse as the day progressed and depth perception would have been really difficult to judge. Basically a really, really, sh**tty day for doing aerobatics of any kind but with the sun shining brightly it seems like they went with it anyways.

It'll be interesting to read the ATSB report when it comes out.
I was flying at Mt. Martha shortly after the crash (as in minutes) and I had no issues with visibility, I could quite happily see the horizon.

It if was that bad, YMMB would probably have been Special VFR.

I also quite easily spotted the R44 fly through Moorabbin with no transponder from a couple of miles away. That place gets crazier every week.

Squawk7700 is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 20th Nov 2023, 00:55
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 552
Received 81 Likes on 63 Posts
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
I was flying at Mt. Martha shortly after the crash (as in minutes) and I had no issues with visibility, I could quite happily see the horizon.

It if was that bad, YMMB would probably have been Special VFR.
Whilst the vis was reduced to 10 miles or so (I don't remember exactly what the ATIS said, but it was up to Xray when we were flying an hour or so later), it wasn't anywhere near bad enough to be SVFR and I've flown SVFR at YMMB in bushfire smoke haze, so I know what that's like! - but you certainly couldn't see across the bay and it only got worse as the sun got lower.

Maybe you were in a clear patch...

Originally Posted by Squawk7700
I also quite easily spotted the R44 fly through Moorabbin with no transponder from a couple of miles away. That place gets crazier every week.
On that we do agree!

Last edited by PiperCameron; 20th Nov 2023 at 01:30.
PiperCameron is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 00:58
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: FNQ ... It's Permanent!
Posts: 4,290
Received 167 Likes on 85 Posts
Originally Posted by DARKMAIZE
Also, you're link goes to a page that does not exist
It does when you remove the colon : from the end of the link!

Here it is...
Capt Fathom is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 00:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,870
Received 191 Likes on 98 Posts
Just be careful with your terminology. You stated "no visible horizon" which may lead readers to believe that the flight was conducted in something other than VFR conditions.

Squawk7700 is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by Squawk7700:
Old 20th Nov 2023, 01:03
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Posts: 552
Received 81 Likes on 63 Posts
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
Just be careful with your terminology. You stated "no visible horizon" which may lead readers to believe that the flight was conducted in something other than VFR conditions.
Yep, fair enough. Point taken. It was certainly a safe VFR day, just not "visibility unlimited" that's all.
PiperCameron is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 01:22
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Victoria
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 3 Posts
Herald Sun reporting that the owner of the business was the pilot (apologies main article is behind a pay wall it seems)

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecri...1583b0f5e98186
DARKMAIZE is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 01:33
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,991
Received 14 Likes on 10 Posts
Those experts taking about other runways to land on miss the best one around. AVALON. No one to hit if you donít make the runway and itís bloody long with ATC and RFF. Would have been an option Iím sure. YMMB? ummmmmmm no. YMPCÖno, YMML yes a good choice.

but he chose YMEN and I canít fault him.
ACMS is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 01:53
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Brisbane
Age: 58
Posts: 267
Received 32 Likes on 27 Posts
Originally Posted by DARKMAIZE
Herald Sun reporting that the owner of the business was the pilot (apologies main article is behind a pay wall it seems)

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecri...1583b0f5e98186

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia...5d9ef822f9a8d#

The second person feared dead at sea after two planes collided near Victoria’s Mount Martha has been identified as police provide a sad update on their search effort.

Two ex-military jets operated by civilians collided mid-air over Port Phillip Bay about 1.45pm on Sunday before one plunged into the water while the other landed safely at the nearby Essendon Airport.

Owner of Jetworks Aviation and pilot Stephen Gale and MasterChef cameraman James Rose were the two occupants of the downed jet who are still missing, The Herald Sun reported.

Mr Gale owns the two Viper S-211 Marchetti planes that crashed when one reportedly lost control off the coast of Mornington Peninsula.

He had joined the Royal Australian Air Force as an electronics engineer before taking up flying. Since then, he has flown jets at a number of events, including the Avalon International Airshow.
My condolences to family and friends, given they were filming I suppose vision may become available if gear is recovered for the investigation.

Last edited by markis10; 20th Nov 2023 at 02:17.
markis10 is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 02:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Coal Face
Posts: 1,293
Received 330 Likes on 125 Posts
The aircraft type is being widely misreported as a "Viper S211 Marchetti". "Viper" is the callsign the formation was using and is not part of the name of the aircraft as far as I'm aware. One of the company's pilots being an ex-RAAF QFI probably inspired the choice of callsign.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...19-p5el4e.html
Chronic Snoozer is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 20th Nov 2023, 03:10
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 3,337
Received 182 Likes on 75 Posts
...jet plunging 20 metres into the water...
​​​​​​​If that is true, not much time to react.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 20th Nov 2023, 03:42
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SEQ
Age: 54
Posts: 512
Received 24 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally Posted by cooperplace
V Sad news. Would this be an ex-RSAF aircraft? Is anything known of the aircraft that's reportedly returned to Essendon?
Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
If that is true, not much time to react.
Nope, just the meeja getting the story crossed up again. The water is apparently around 20m deep where the bits of wreckage were found.
spinex is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.