3 lost west of Brisbane Monday 29-8-22
Interesting as well that 80% of VFR into IMC accidents are pilots over 40 years old. This pilot fits into that grouping. I think that shows a confidence issue, or more so an overconfidence issue, probably along the lines of 'I'm sure I know what I'm doing'. Still it is concerning that older pilots seem to be more likely to do this. As somebody mentioned earlier we know he's a highly experienced helicopter pilot, but how much fixed wing time did he have.
Maybe the younger pilots are so used to home computer flight sim that they have no issues pushing the little aircraft pointer around the hills depicted on the aircraft nav screen ?
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Interesting as well that 80% of VFR into IMC accidents are pilots over 40 years old. This pilot fits into that grouping. I think that shows a confidence issue, or more so an overconfidence issue, probably along the lines of 'I'm sure I know what I'm doing'. Still it is concerning that older pilots seem to be more likely to do this. As somebody mentioned earlier we know he's a highly experienced helicopter pilot, but how much fixed wing time did he have.
(BTW: Very big call to already conclude that this accident was caused by operating VFR in IMC. )
Thinking further on the reasoning behind why Mike Patey went for many cockpit screens got me remembering to when I first started flying on the aircraft dials.
Back in the day I had my own VFR aircraft though used to rent the IFR capable machines and flew many types of aircraft from Mooneys, Pipers, and Cessna’s. One thing all these different types of aircraft had were the same basic type of primary instrument flight layout - the ‘six pack’ layout. Vac AH/DG, Air pressure AS/ALT/VSI and an electric TC (Not all aircraft were standardised to the six pack though the aircraft I flew were) The failure checking and resolution were thus standardised to whatever I flew.
Whilst the organisations I rented from always checked me out on an aircraft before I flew it there was never any discussion about the six pack. No matter what ‘type’ of aircraft I flew I had no confusion as to what I should do re flying on the dials or any instrument failure errors. They all had the same ‘type’ of primary instrument panel and the same ‘type’ of failure systematic routine.
Nowadays, there seems to be no standardised layout to aircraft panels re primary instrument flight. I recall when the then Archerfield Cirrus dealer got the first ‘big screen’ aircraft in I got a late night demo run in it. All went well for me the first ten minutes or so into flight whilst I sat there in awe looking at the video game in front of me though, then it occurred to me, what happens if that big glowing screen suddenly goes blank ? Enquiring, I discovered there were a standard AH somewhere about my left knee !!! I wondered how I would transition from a big bright glowing screen going dark to a poorly lit little AH….
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Back in the day I had my own VFR aircraft though used to rent the IFR capable machines and flew many types of aircraft from Mooneys, Pipers, and Cessna’s. One thing all these different types of aircraft had were the same basic type of primary instrument flight layout - the ‘six pack’ layout. Vac AH/DG, Air pressure AS/ALT/VSI and an electric TC (Not all aircraft were standardised to the six pack though the aircraft I flew were) The failure checking and resolution were thus standardised to whatever I flew.
Whilst the organisations I rented from always checked me out on an aircraft before I flew it there was never any discussion about the six pack. No matter what ‘type’ of aircraft I flew I had no confusion as to what I should do re flying on the dials or any instrument failure errors. They all had the same ‘type’ of primary instrument panel and the same ‘type’ of failure systematic routine.
Nowadays, there seems to be no standardised layout to aircraft panels re primary instrument flight. I recall when the then Archerfield Cirrus dealer got the first ‘big screen’ aircraft in I got a late night demo run in it. All went well for me the first ten minutes or so into flight whilst I sat there in awe looking at the video game in front of me though, then it occurred to me, what happens if that big glowing screen suddenly goes blank ? Enquiring, I discovered there were a standard AH somewhere about my left knee !!! I wondered how I would transition from a big bright glowing screen going dark to a poorly lit little AH….
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(BTW: Very big call to already conclude that this accident was caused by operating VFR in IMC. )
Given that the weather was conducive to VMC into IMC and that the photo of the wreckage showed a sudden impact and that VMC into IMC is not uncommon, I am intrigued as to why you would say its a very big call? I agree that to unequivocally state that it was the cause is premature but it is not a stretch to speculate that the accident was a result of VMC into IMC.
I’ve flown around the area of the crash for over thirty years and noted there is rarely a consistent fog or cloud cover. You can be standing on the ground with 50 metre visibility and walk 100 metres and see to the distant hills. There are areas of ground humidity caused by the large water areas. The small hills causing their own micro climates, and the weather demarcation caused by the Brisbane ranges to the near east and the Great Divide to the near west are another factor. Some days flying above the fogs it looks like it is water flowing around the hills and valleys and with very sharply defined edges to the fog.
Anybody driving down the Brisbane valley highway can see the effect of driving in dense fog and suddenly coming out into sunshine. Whilst a car has no choice but to stay on track, an aircraft has the freedom to not stay ‘on the road’.
Just because some cameras thereabout show cloud etc, and a ground observer sees cloud etc, does not mean the accident aircraft were in IF.
Just to clarify, I get the impression that some think “scud running” is an illegal act. I always thought of it, and were under the impression, as it just meant you were not navigating on a defined track but navigating roughly in the direction you wish to go whilst navigating around cloud/fog/heavy rain areas whilst maintaining visual flight.
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LL: Because of the experience of the PIC. Doesn't sound to me like someone who'd flown the same hour 40,000 times over.
Big call to rule out the possibility of a medical event.
And I'd be very interested to know whether either of the PAX were budding pilots.
Still, I agree that O's Razor leads us in a (tragically-common) direction.
Big call to rule out the possibility of a medical event.
And I'd be very interested to know whether either of the PAX were budding pilots.
Still, I agree that O's Razor leads us in a (tragically-common) direction.
And do we have data about how old those pilots were when they first started flying?
(BTW: Very big call to already conclude that this accident was caused by operating VFR in IMC. )
(BTW: Very big call to already conclude that this accident was caused by operating VFR in IMC. )
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 7th Sep 2022 at 02:47.
Perhaps ask Mike Patey why he has gone the multi screen route. He comments in this video about the need to quickly obtain information and to avoid changing ‘pages’ whilst in flight. For those who don’t know of Patey he is an incredibly intelligent private pilot who has flown every thing from jets to helicopters:
A while ago a favourite mid-life crisis decision for men was to buy a Harley or a Harley-lookalike and head out on the highway (usually draped in Harley gear, including the missus wearing Harley lingerie). A sharp increase in prangs involving older motorcyclists ensued.
I started riding motor bikes when I was a teenager and have owned many. Being 55 with 40 years on the road is not the same as being 55 with 4 months on the road.
That's why I'm interested in the stats about when pilots involved in these kinds of accidents first started flying. Anecdotal evidence suggests that lots of private pilots come to flying later in life (or return to flying later in life after a long hiatus).
I started riding motor bikes when I was a teenager and have owned many. Being 55 with 40 years on the road is not the same as being 55 with 4 months on the road.
That's why I'm interested in the stats about when pilots involved in these kinds of accidents first started flying. Anecdotal evidence suggests that lots of private pilots come to flying later in life (or return to flying later in life after a long hiatus).
For those who don’t know Patey he is an incredibly intelligent private pilot who has flown every thing from jets to helicopters:
We are not all Yeagers and Hoovers
Big call to rule out the possibility of a medical event.
Be interesting to see what the ATSB find re phone vids, texts or phone calls.
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Have a look at the ADS-B track, convert the altitude readout from PA to MSL and overlay it with a digital elevation model or topo chart and ask yourself "Would I be happy to do that?" I could (almost) guarantee the answer will come back "Yeah, naahhh...." I don't like speaking ill of those that aren't here to defend themselves, but CPL / CIR or no, there's no way in hell I'd "willingly" fly that profile.
Indeed we are not, but it needs to be remembered that even these two gentlemen made decisions that resulted in accidents where aircraft were written off, the former refusing to take instruction from a junior that lead to the loss of a F-104, the latter refueling his piston Aero Commander with Jet A, belatedly the former refused to accept responsibility, the latter did and went on to introduce to the industry a fuel nozzle that prevented misfuelling.
(Forever Flying pg.275-277)
That - to me at least - is even more concerning that there are / might be commercial pilots out there who think nothing of passing over the top of a hill with just 360 feet terrain clearance in what is demonstrably shitty weather.
Have a look at the ADS-B track, convert the altitude readout from PA to MSL and overlay it with a digital elevation model or topo chart and ask yourself "Would I be happy to do that?" I could (almost) guarantee the answer will come back "Yeah, naahhh...." I don't like speaking ill of those that aren't here to defend themselves, but CPL / CIR or no, there's no way in hell I'd "willingly" fly that profile.
Have a look at the ADS-B track, convert the altitude readout from PA to MSL and overlay it with a digital elevation model or topo chart and ask yourself "Would I be happy to do that?" I could (almost) guarantee the answer will come back "Yeah, naahhh...." I don't like speaking ill of those that aren't here to defend themselves, but CPL / CIR or no, there's no way in hell I'd "willingly" fly that profile.
Noting others comments on the integrity of some of these web trackers I’d like to see an ATSB report reference on the mater.
The latter did not refuel himself, it was a line boy who after the accident felt deeply disturbed for mishandling the fuel. Bob then asked the boy to refuel again for the rest of the airshow
Hoover asked, “Where’s the line boy who serviced my plane?” Everyone seemed reluctant to tell him, apparently afraid that the airshow performer wanted to chew him out or be unkind to him.Finally, someone said, “He’s outside.” Hoover quickly located the boy, standing by the fence, with tears in his eyes.
Hoover went over and put his arm around the youngster and said, “There isn’t a man alive who hasn’t made a mistake. But I’m positive you’ll never make this mistake again. That’s why I want to make sure that you’re the only one to refuel my plane tomorrow. I won’t let anyone else on the field touch it.”
And for the remainder of that weekend’s air show, the young man refueled Hoover’s P-51 without any further incident.
Hoover went over and put his arm around the youngster and said, “There isn’t a man alive who hasn’t made a mistake. But I’m positive you’ll never make this mistake again. That’s why I want to make sure that you’re the only one to refuel my plane tomorrow. I won’t let anyone else on the field touch it.”
And for the remainder of that weekend’s air show, the young man refueled Hoover’s P-51 without any further incident.
Thread Starter
They are safe to use after the fact for historical purposes, however there are real-time delays induced when trying to use them live, like sharing traffic between EFB’s for example - you can’t rely on it.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 8th Sep 2022 at 03:25.
