Virgin Australia Cadet program
I'm sure you're pretty good, but you ain't the best, you aren't the next Yeager or Hoover, nor will you likely be a 'better pilot than anyone VA choose'. You'll most likely be a hack, like the vast majority of pilots, myself included. That is to say we screw smalls things up every flight, but strive to improve.
The ego you display will most likely get you and your future pax killed or seriously injured.
But hey I'm just a hack who's been around the block in Aviation a bit, I'm sure you know best with your vast aviation experience.
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There are a whole gamut of urban recruiting myths being run here, and whilst it might be cathartic for some to believe these fallacies as self evident truths, the reality is more benign;
1. Airline recruiters don't want the best pilots, they are actively engaging in affirmative action ie they want minority pilots.
Despite some ridiculous things that get said in the media from time to time, no airline in Australia engages in affirmative action for pilot recruitment. Airlines don't have the budget to waste time on unsuitable people and no Pilot involved in the recruitment process would sully their reputation by being involved in such a folly.
2. I have a friend who's a great bloke who failed an interview, therefore the recruitment process is invalidated.
Nobody who ever failed an airline recruitment process in the history of aviation has ever gone back to their friends and explained that in the interview they acted like a total muppet. They lied or demonstrated an inability to accept responsibility, they couldn't articulate a single thought process, or that when they get stressed their natural response is to become obnoxious and that this was demonstrated to perfection in the process.
3. Airlines are nepotistic, they want airline captain's sons.
When an airline says "what sort of people do we want?" they look at their best and then actively recruit people with those qualities. It's not rocket science or even a stretch to think that an exceptional Captain may have a son/daughter with similar qualities and personality traits.
4. I'm awesome and didn't pass the recruitment process, therefore the airline doesn't recognise awesomeness, I've been discriminated against and the whole process is invalidated.
Nope. It worked perfectly.
If your natural response to being critiqued is anger and an inability to accept responsibility (apportioning blame), then be happy in the knowledge that you are the reason why there is a vetting process.
1. Airline recruiters don't want the best pilots, they are actively engaging in affirmative action ie they want minority pilots.
Despite some ridiculous things that get said in the media from time to time, no airline in Australia engages in affirmative action for pilot recruitment. Airlines don't have the budget to waste time on unsuitable people and no Pilot involved in the recruitment process would sully their reputation by being involved in such a folly.
2. I have a friend who's a great bloke who failed an interview, therefore the recruitment process is invalidated.
Nobody who ever failed an airline recruitment process in the history of aviation has ever gone back to their friends and explained that in the interview they acted like a total muppet. They lied or demonstrated an inability to accept responsibility, they couldn't articulate a single thought process, or that when they get stressed their natural response is to become obnoxious and that this was demonstrated to perfection in the process.
3. Airlines are nepotistic, they want airline captain's sons.
When an airline says "what sort of people do we want?" they look at their best and then actively recruit people with those qualities. It's not rocket science or even a stretch to think that an exceptional Captain may have a son/daughter with similar qualities and personality traits.
4. I'm awesome and didn't pass the recruitment process, therefore the airline doesn't recognise awesomeness, I've been discriminated against and the whole process is invalidated.
Nope. It worked perfectly.
If your natural response to being critiqued is anger and an inability to accept responsibility (apportioning blame), then be happy in the knowledge that you are the reason why there is a vetting process.
Last edited by psycho joe; 10th Jun 2017 at 08:23.
Joe,
Whilst I agree that airlines don't hire unsuitable candidates, what exactly makes a candidate unsuitable? This varies greatly between companies.
You could ace the sim and interview but if management think you will be unwilling to move bases in 2 years time they may be inclined to take someone who performed at a much lower (but still satisfactory) standard than you.
Your notice at current company and where you live now are also factors that can work for you or against. The Darwin GA guy may be great but misses out cause he can't make type rating course in 10 days. So they take Mr very average who can.
Also Jetstars new CP announced that she is pushing for 50% female pilot recruitment so if that isn't affirmitive action I don't know what is.
Whilst I agree that airlines don't hire unsuitable candidates, what exactly makes a candidate unsuitable? This varies greatly between companies.
You could ace the sim and interview but if management think you will be unwilling to move bases in 2 years time they may be inclined to take someone who performed at a much lower (but still satisfactory) standard than you.
Your notice at current company and where you live now are also factors that can work for you or against. The Darwin GA guy may be great but misses out cause he can't make type rating course in 10 days. So they take Mr very average who can.
Also Jetstars new CP announced that she is pushing for 50% female pilot recruitment so if that isn't affirmitive action I don't know what is.
Last edited by pilotchute; 10th Jun 2017 at 22:46.
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At a recent assessment day one of the first statements made by HR was "we have a target of 30% females".
There is definently an agenda at play and with political correctness gone mad, it's probably only going to get worse.
I think you could be an argument that females perform better in the types of interviews we see in these cadetships. Through my own experience, I have found that females are much better at giving the interviewer what they want than their male counterparts when it comes to off the street kind of positions.
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23 Alpha,the mind boggles of the HR departments these days.
Ive got 4500 hrs rotary wing ATPL with 700 multi engine IFR glass cockpit multi crew time in heli, due to the oil and gas downturn I applied as I also have a CPL(A) Frozen ATPL(A) with a lapsed multi engine IPC rating. I didn't get through as I was told i had too many hours.
.
Ive got 4500 hrs rotary wing ATPL with 700 multi engine IFR glass cockpit multi crew time in heli, due to the oil and gas downturn I applied as I also have a CPL(A) Frozen ATPL(A) with a lapsed multi engine IPC rating. I didn't get through as I was told i had too many hours.
.
Hiring criteria changes at the whim of management. I worked at a A320 operator that changed its mind 3 times in 6 months. First they targeted turbo prop FO's. Then the new HOTAC wanted people with time on type. Just before I left they wanted single pilot IFR time.
It's a lottery.
It's a lottery.
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Firstly, to be clear I have no connection with the thread topic whatsoever, however I am familiar with the subject of recruiting generally.
Coop et al. It's important to understand that meeting the minimum requirements to apply for a position is no guarantee of success. Whilst it is true that I have no idea how you presented yourself, likewise you have no idea how others presented themselves either. It's also important to keep perspective, there's a difference between not being competitive in the selection process and outright rejection. You won't get detailed coaching from a recruiting department. This is real life and not high school, airlines have neither the resources nor the inclination to spend man hours coaching every unsuccessful applicant. The airline and the industry owes you nothing. How you react is entirely up to you. Pick yourself up and move on, or use this as an excuse to define the rest of your life. I'd suggest that you stop whinging, this isn't even close to the worst rejection that will confront you in this industry.
I believe that it was the CEO. Im aware of this statement in a paid advertorial and I've written at length about this on another thread. Essentially talk is cheap, recruiting is expensive. These days every airline department fights for, and is accountable for every dollar so results are essential. Furthermore, HR people are generally viewed as being expendable and most companies turn over hr people faster than rolls of toilet paper. Given that it takes a whole team of people to recruit every individual, a single hr person playing games by stacking a recruitment drive with unsuitable people would result in a massive failure rate, and subsequently a new HR vacancy.
Coop et al. It's important to understand that meeting the minimum requirements to apply for a position is no guarantee of success. Whilst it is true that I have no idea how you presented yourself, likewise you have no idea how others presented themselves either. It's also important to keep perspective, there's a difference between not being competitive in the selection process and outright rejection. You won't get detailed coaching from a recruiting department. This is real life and not high school, airlines have neither the resources nor the inclination to spend man hours coaching every unsuccessful applicant. The airline and the industry owes you nothing. How you react is entirely up to you. Pick yourself up and move on, or use this as an excuse to define the rest of your life. I'd suggest that you stop whinging, this isn't even close to the worst rejection that will confront you in this industry.
Also Jetstars new CP announced that she is pushing for 50% female pilot recruitment so if that isn't affirmitive action I don't know what is.
Last edited by psycho joe; 11th Jun 2017 at 03:58.
It seems as if the program heavily favours females as well.
Take a look at the previous class that was a run a few years ago:
http://www.flyfta.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_0682A.jpg
You can see from the photo that out of 8 cadets, 5 were women. You can't seriously tell me that 60% of the applicants were women. Last time I looked at the statistics, less than 10% of commercial pilots licences in Australia are issued to women. I would think applicant numbers in this program would be similar. You would therefore have a far higher chance of getting through just by not being a bloke.
This is the problem with companies trying to use quotas to rectify perceived injustices. There are less female pilots simply because less women want to fly, just like there are less male nurses and teachers because less men want to go down those career paths.
Shame on Virgin.
Take a look at the previous class that was a run a few years ago:
http://www.flyfta.com/wp-content/uploads/DSC_0682A.jpg
You can see from the photo that out of 8 cadets, 5 were women. You can't seriously tell me that 60% of the applicants were women. Last time I looked at the statistics, less than 10% of commercial pilots licences in Australia are issued to women. I would think applicant numbers in this program would be similar. You would therefore have a far higher chance of getting through just by not being a bloke.
This is the problem with companies trying to use quotas to rectify perceived injustices. There are less female pilots simply because less women want to fly, just like there are less male nurses and teachers because less men want to go down those career paths.
Shame on Virgin.
Incorrect... 7 cadets. 4 women. One female in that photo is a cadet mentor and current 737 FO.
Whilst the correction doesn't exactly disprove your point, it may indication your assumptions may not be all as they seem. I would be more inclined to believe what someone else here has said, in that the company cannot afford to run a recruiting quota.
HR departments have so many applicants to choose from that they can cherry pick who they want and weed someone out because they don't like the colour of their eyebrows.
In many threads here, there are stories of captains going for direct entry with thousands of hours of jet experience being turned down in favour of someone with a few hundred hours of instructing in a duchess.
HR departments are a cancer on every organization. Don't for one second believe they will choose the best person for the job.
Flying an aeroplane isn't difficult, you can train any monkey to fly. Who gets the job comes down to what kind of candidate the twisted HR personnel are frothing at the mouth for at that point in time.
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Flying skills are but a small part of the skill set that airlines are looking for these days.
At the end of the day you may be able to flying anything like it's on rails, but if you're the sort of person that nobody wants to sit next to for 8 hours, then you may find yourself out of the running.
I'm surprised some of you haven't figured that part out yet??
At the end of the day you may be able to flying anything like it's on rails, but if you're the sort of person that nobody wants to sit next to for 8 hours, then you may find yourself out of the running.
I'm surprised some of you haven't figured that part out yet??
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I applied for Virgin's inaugural program back in 2012 and subsequently got to the final round. I knew of one of the young women who got in and she performed excellently in the group work exercises and public speaking. I have no doubt she performed well in the other stages too.
However, I didn't progress past the first stage the following year. To say I didn't have "it" would be at odds to my performance the year prior. After some thought, I came to the conclusion that I had not shown self improvement during the time that had elapsed. However (and perhaps more importantly) there didn't seem to be any sort of prejudice given my gender or past performance - I had to prove myself just like everyone else.
At the time I was with the military (and later joined a paramilitary company). It was here that I spent my time reflecting upon the skills that a pilot needs, and then went about developing said skills. These included (the list is no way exhaustive): strong communication skills, the ability to work in a team, able to work under pressure, able to take criticism on board, ability to self reflect/assess, etc. I deliberately picked a career path within the organisations so I could get the exposure and challenges that I need to grow. I also spoke extensively to aviation experts and enthusiastists to get their inputs, opinions, etc.
With a few more years of work experience under my belt I applied for another Australian based cadetship as well as overseas cadetship. I got offers for both cadetships and am due to start training soon for my chosen airline. I don't think these successes came about being the owner of a vagina - I know I performed strongly in the group exercises as I have plenty of practice. I also had quite a lot of interviewing experience by then, and I had a number of real world examples to expand on.
End of the day would not say I am an excellent pilot (I didn't break any records when soloing!), or that I am particularly smart or talented. But I took on the lessons learned from going through the recruitment process of Virgin then set out gaining valuable life skills that would serve me well in any job.
I guess my point is that you have to roll with the punches and stop playing the victim card (dare I say "man up" :P). Because while you spend your time complaining, people like me are working away....
Others who took dozens and dozens of flying hours before first solo are some of the best pilots I know, and make particularly good instructors. They have some real experience in overcoming problems they can use to help students overcome their issues as well. They also strive to self improve regularly, something the minimum time brigade doesn't do.
Last edited by dr dre; 14th Jun 2017 at 15:51.
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DDAO
Congratulations on your success.
This is the single best bit of advice on the subject of airline recruitment that anyone could take away. Like it or not behavioural science based Pilot recruitment is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
Congratulations on your success.
I deliberately picked a career path within the organisations so I could get the exposure and challenges that I need to grow.
Open descent,
I would rather sit next to a**hole for 8 hours knowing that if stuff goes wrong big time he/she won't drop the ball. I couldn't care less about how polite/charismatic someone is. Its a job not a social club
I would rather sit next to a**hole for 8 hours knowing that if stuff goes wrong big time he/she won't drop the ball. I couldn't care less about how polite/charismatic someone is. Its a job not a social club
Having an a-hole in the flight deck next to you is, in my opinion, going to cause many more incidences of things going wrong to begin with. And when it does, this isn't a single pilot game, two crew working effectively together will provide a better outcome than an a-hole single pilot hero anyday.