Virgin Australia Cadet program
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I would rather sit next to a**hole for 8 hours knowing that if stuff goes wrong big time he/she won't drop the ball. I couldn't care less about how polite/charismatic someone is. Its a job not a social club
Being an a**hole or even a half-a** isn't a skill, its an art-form and as such has no place in a technical environment.
I hope that helps.
Last edited by psycho joe; 13th Jun 2017 at 05:08.
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DDAO, thank you for illustrating so eloquently what any major aviation company should be looking for when they recruit.
Over several decades in aviation, I have been involved with recruitment, induction, training and checking of candidates for a major airline and you sound like you have developed into the type of pilot that every airline would be very happy to have in their fold so congratulations on your achievement.
The suggestion that you may have achieved based on gender is offensive to me as a recruiter and fellow pilot.
I firmly believe the only thing quotas achieve is awarding a job to someone less qualified.
For some people though, there will always be an excuse for not getting a job.
So much more convenient to say, I wasn't (choose an adjective) enough.
Be mature enough to admit (just like DDAO did), I wasn't good enough.
And then you can go about improving your self.
And while we are on it, no-one wants to sit next to an a,hole for ANY length of time. If you show yourself to be an a,hole, I guarantee you will not be getting the job.
Over several decades in aviation, I have been involved with recruitment, induction, training and checking of candidates for a major airline and you sound like you have developed into the type of pilot that every airline would be very happy to have in their fold so congratulations on your achievement.
The suggestion that you may have achieved based on gender is offensive to me as a recruiter and fellow pilot.
I firmly believe the only thing quotas achieve is awarding a job to someone less qualified.
For some people though, there will always be an excuse for not getting a job.
So much more convenient to say, I wasn't (choose an adjective) enough.
Be mature enough to admit (just like DDAO did), I wasn't good enough.
And then you can go about improving your self.
And while we are on it, no-one wants to sit next to an a,hole for ANY length of time. If you show yourself to be an a,hole, I guarantee you will not be getting the job.
Jim,
Whilst I would prefer not to sit next to an ahole, the quality of some of the people I had to fly with recently makes me wonder. Whilst being very polite and book smart, planning an approach seems beyond their ability.
I will take the abrasive but skilled person any day.
Whilst I would prefer not to sit next to an ahole, the quality of some of the people I had to fly with recently makes me wonder. Whilst being very polite and book smart, planning an approach seems beyond their ability.
I will take the abrasive but skilled person any day.
For the record, if I am unsuccessful with any job, whether the reason(s) be a single issue or a list as long as a whole page, and whether I agree with them or not - I'll take it on the chin and attempt to address every single reason until I can say 'hand on heart' that I have done the best I possibly can in every single listed aspect to make myself a better recruitment prospect. No issue with me whatsoever.
What is total bullsh*t though, is when you meet (and/or exceed) every single advertised requirement then get a bog standard 'thanks but no thanks' email with no explanation as to where your deficiencies were.
I'd like your advice Jimnhorace how one should reflect on how they aren't good enough if they aren't told why they were not successful.
I don't want to make excuses. I can receive criticism. I can act on advice. I can make myself a better person and a better pilot... but only if I am told where I am lacking.
What is total bullsh*t though, is when you meet (and/or exceed) every single advertised requirement then get a bog standard 'thanks but no thanks' email with no explanation as to where your deficiencies were.
I'd like your advice Jimnhorace how one should reflect on how they aren't good enough if they aren't told why they were not successful.
I don't want to make excuses. I can receive criticism. I can act on advice. I can make myself a better person and a better pilot... but only if I am told where I am lacking.
Sorry to say it, but HR have zero responsibility towards failed applicants. None at all. They solely deal with succesful cadets and current employees.
If you want feedback here's a tip. Discuss your interview with your peers and mentors, and be self aware enough to realise where you may have gone wrong. If you can't do that that may be a big hint into why you failed in the first place.
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Coop, I understand your frustration. It is very difficult to know how you stack up against the other candidates or prospective company standards without that feedback so, you have to work with what you know.
Critique yourself honestly and concentrate on all the areas you think you could have improved on. No-one has ever flown a perfect sim or sat a perfect interview. There is always room for improvement. Seek guidance from those you know that have been successful and leave no stone unturned in your preparation. Conduct mock interviews with your friends. Have them ask supplementary questions that you may not have anticipated. If you haven't done a lot of hand flying lately or you know you will be assessed on a particular sim, consider buying an hour for familiarity and to get your scan going.
Look like a professional. if your only suit is ill fitting or shabby then hire, borrow or buy one. Polish your shoes. Bind your resume, have copies for the people conducting the interview and know what is in it. Same with your log book.
If you are asked to bring copies of check and training records for the past 2 years then bring all of them from that time frame. Even if they are not particularly complimentary. I can tell you that candidates who have been just average in every other aspect have been given jobs because of how they responded to questions about those assessments. They owned them. Didn't try to blame any one else and were able to tell us what they learnt from that experience and how they are now better pilots.
From experience, a lot of people think they failed the interview when in fact they have failed the sim.
And don't believe just because you failed in your application for one airline, you will be undesirable to the next or unsuccessful in your next attempt. Back in the day, a lot of people who failed the Ansett selection criteria ended up successful with Australian or Qantas and vice versa.
Good Luck in your quest and don't give up. Nothing succeeds like perseverance.>
Chute, I can teach some one how to set up and fly an approach but i can't teach someone how to not be an a,hole.
Critique yourself honestly and concentrate on all the areas you think you could have improved on. No-one has ever flown a perfect sim or sat a perfect interview. There is always room for improvement. Seek guidance from those you know that have been successful and leave no stone unturned in your preparation. Conduct mock interviews with your friends. Have them ask supplementary questions that you may not have anticipated. If you haven't done a lot of hand flying lately or you know you will be assessed on a particular sim, consider buying an hour for familiarity and to get your scan going.
Look like a professional. if your only suit is ill fitting or shabby then hire, borrow or buy one. Polish your shoes. Bind your resume, have copies for the people conducting the interview and know what is in it. Same with your log book.
If you are asked to bring copies of check and training records for the past 2 years then bring all of them from that time frame. Even if they are not particularly complimentary. I can tell you that candidates who have been just average in every other aspect have been given jobs because of how they responded to questions about those assessments. They owned them. Didn't try to blame any one else and were able to tell us what they learnt from that experience and how they are now better pilots.
From experience, a lot of people think they failed the interview when in fact they have failed the sim.
And don't believe just because you failed in your application for one airline, you will be undesirable to the next or unsuccessful in your next attempt. Back in the day, a lot of people who failed the Ansett selection criteria ended up successful with Australian or Qantas and vice versa.
Good Luck in your quest and don't give up. Nothing succeeds like perseverance.>
Chute, I can teach some one how to set up and fly an approach but i can't teach someone how to not be an a,hole.
You completely missed the point. I met all the specified criteria and I didn't get to an interview stage at which I could request the feedback of peers and mentors. Pretty hard to be "self aware enough to realise where (I) may have gone wrong" don't you think?
Im also quite aware of the fact that no-one who is rejected at the first (or second, or even third) round will receive feedback.
Also, do you honestly think if you applied for a job (any job - even outside of aviation) and you were rejected despite meeting all the criteria they were seeking, that your inability to work out why you were unsuccessful was in fact, the reason itself? I don't think so.
Im also quite aware of the fact that no-one who is rejected at the first (or second, or even third) round will receive feedback.
Also, do you honestly think if you applied for a job (any job - even outside of aviation) and you were rejected despite meeting all the criteria they were seeking, that your inability to work out why you were unsuccessful was in fact, the reason itself? I don't think so.
Or you could just be unlucky and got rejected on a technicality because they have 1000's of applicants for less than 10 positions and not enough HR staff to look through them all indepth. But don't worry, the world needs over 600'000 new pilots over the next 20 years and not getting into the VA cadet program this year won't hurt your career. Just be prepared to accept any honest critique of your attitude or behaviour along the way.
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Well you submitted an application that got rejected, right? There might be something in your application that stood out as being a negative. Have a few experienced airline pilots run their eyes over it, or maybe a few HR specialists. They might find something that may be an instant "red flag" for recruitment.
Or you could just be unlucky and got rejected on a technicality because they have 1000's of applicants for less than 10 positions and not enough HR staff to look through them all indepth. But don't worry, the world needs over 600'000 new pilots over the next 20 years and not getting into the VA cadet program this year won't hurt your career. Just be prepared to accept any honest critique of your attitude or behaviour along the way.
Or you could just be unlucky and got rejected on a technicality because they have 1000's of applicants for less than 10 positions and not enough HR staff to look through them all indepth. But don't worry, the world needs over 600'000 new pilots over the next 20 years and not getting into the VA cadet program this year won't hurt your career. Just be prepared to accept any honest critique of your attitude or behaviour along the way.
Coop, I understand your frustration. It is very difficult to know how you stack up against the other candidates or prospective company standards without that feedback so, you have to work with what you know.
Critique yourself honestly and concentrate on all the areas you think you could have improved on. No-one has ever flown a perfect sim or sat a perfect interview. There is always room for improvement. Seek guidance from those you know that have been successful and leave no stone unturned in your preparation. Conduct mock interviews with your friends. Have them ask supplementary questions that you may not have anticipated. If you haven't done a lot of hand flying lately or you know you will be assessed on a particular sim, consider buying an hour for familiarity and to get your scan going.
Look like a professional. if your only suit is ill fitting or shabby then hire, borrow or buy one. Polish your shoes. Bind your resume, have copies for the people conducting the interview and know what is in it. Same with your log book.
If you are asked to bring copies of check and training records for the past 2 years then bring all of them from that time frame. Even if they are not particularly complimentary. I can tell you that candidates who have been just average in every other aspect have been given jobs because of how they responded to questions about those assessments. They owned them. Didn't try to blame any one else and were able to tell us what they learnt from that experience and how they are now better pilots.
From experience, a lot of people think they failed the interview when in fact they have failed the sim.
And don't believe just because you failed in your application for one airline, you will be undesirable to the next or unsuccessful in your next attempt. Back in the day, a lot of people who failed the Ansett selection criteria ended up successful with Australian or Qantas and vice versa.
Good Luck in your quest and don't give up. Nothing succeeds like perseverance.
Critique yourself honestly and concentrate on all the areas you think you could have improved on. No-one has ever flown a perfect sim or sat a perfect interview. There is always room for improvement. Seek guidance from those you know that have been successful and leave no stone unturned in your preparation. Conduct mock interviews with your friends. Have them ask supplementary questions that you may not have anticipated. If you haven't done a lot of hand flying lately or you know you will be assessed on a particular sim, consider buying an hour for familiarity and to get your scan going.
Look like a professional. if your only suit is ill fitting or shabby then hire, borrow or buy one. Polish your shoes. Bind your resume, have copies for the people conducting the interview and know what is in it. Same with your log book.
If you are asked to bring copies of check and training records for the past 2 years then bring all of them from that time frame. Even if they are not particularly complimentary. I can tell you that candidates who have been just average in every other aspect have been given jobs because of how they responded to questions about those assessments. They owned them. Didn't try to blame any one else and were able to tell us what they learnt from that experience and how they are now better pilots.
From experience, a lot of people think they failed the interview when in fact they have failed the sim.
And don't believe just because you failed in your application for one airline, you will be undesirable to the next or unsuccessful in your next attempt. Back in the day, a lot of people who failed the Ansett selection criteria ended up successful with Australian or Qantas and vice versa.
Good Luck in your quest and don't give up. Nothing succeeds like perseverance.
Thanks Dre, JimnHorace,
I have already sought out a couple of professional resume reviewers following this rejection and will be making amendments as necessary. I will also be attempting to improve the 'readability' of my resume by ATS (applicant tracking software). It is possible that my application simply wasn't read correctly and never even made it to human eyes. Whether this was the case or not, it is still an area I can improve on.
I have also taken additional flying lessons and will continue to do so (despite the potential peril of "too much flying experience" for ab-initio programs) because I want to know I have the skills (and, at the risk of sounding like a nerd, I love flying). At the end of the day, If I exceed the maximums before I am offered a cadetship then it will just be off to GA world for a few years. Same goal, different journey.
I am proud of my logbook and keep it neat, tidy and legible but I did not think to make sure I bring it should I ever get to an interview and I will absolutely remember to do so. Would've been a rookie error I guess, but not now. Thanks.
I am confident in my interviewing ability and own a pretty nice suit
but I do not have contacts in aviation world (other than my instructor) to whom I could interrogate about the hiring process. This is something I will also work on.Very disappointed about this rejection from Virgin but there is no way I will just give up or wallow in self-pity despite being accused of such in some posts on this thread.
I'm just going to push on and I have no doubt I will be able to make a career in aviation in one way or another. Thanks for your positive feedback and genuine advice.
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I'll add one more...
I agree wholeheartedly with dr dre, Jimnhorace, and psycho joe and have little to add to their comments.
There is another possibility for the response Coopmeup got, and it's along the lines of:
As has been said previously: HR has limited time and resources. A hypothetical cadetship is advertised: There are only 10 positions, and thousands of applications. Since HR's time is valuable to the company, if they get 100 (say) applicants who meet all the criteria they MIGHT say:
"Enough. We've got 100 people we can shortlist for sims. interviews, etc. Disregard any further applications."
So any further applicants, regardless of qualifications, won't even have their applications read by the company, even if those applications are submitted before the cut-off date.
This is reasonably common in other industries, and I've done this myself when I was in I.T. and we had over 200 applications for 2 graduate entry positions.
The take-away from this is: Have your C.V. references, etc, ready. When a position opens, get your submission in ASAP. If you wait for the 'day before the deadline' you may well be too late.
DIVOSH!
There is another possibility for the response Coopmeup got, and it's along the lines of:
Or you could just be unlucky and got rejected on a technicality because they have 1000's of applicants for less than 10 positions and not enough HR staff to look through them all indepth.
"Enough. We've got 100 people we can shortlist for sims. interviews, etc. Disregard any further applications."
So any further applicants, regardless of qualifications, won't even have their applications read by the company, even if those applications are submitted before the cut-off date.
This is reasonably common in other industries, and I've done this myself when I was in I.T. and we had over 200 applications for 2 graduate entry positions.
The take-away from this is: Have your C.V. references, etc, ready. When a position opens, get your submission in ASAP. If you wait for the 'day before the deadline' you may well be too late.
DIVOSH!
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Hi Divosh,
I have considered your suggestion but can advise that I submitted my application, in full, on the very first day the applications opened (to the general public).
As I said in my previous post, it is possible that my application was ignored by ATS and never made it to a human (I dont know if Virgin use this sort of software but it would be a good guess that they do for the amount of applications they must receive) so I am taking positive steps to eliminate this possibility from occurring in the future (irrespective of whether it occurred in this instance) as well as other actions to make myself more appealing.
Cheers.
I have considered your suggestion but can advise that I submitted my application, in full, on the very first day the applications opened (to the general public).
As I said in my previous post, it is possible that my application was ignored by ATS and never made it to a human (I dont know if Virgin use this sort of software but it would be a good guess that they do for the amount of applications they must receive) so I am taking positive steps to eliminate this possibility from occurring in the future (irrespective of whether it occurred in this instance) as well as other actions to make myself more appealing.
Cheers.
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I applied for the Sharp Cadetship back around 2011-2012.... got rejected, applied again in 2015, got in... just keep at it.. perseverance.... When I got rejected all I did was go back to work and sorted myself financially in the meantime, then when mining slowed down thought I would have another go... I am much better for it from a financial perspective in the fact I have my car I own outright, and a house... so now I can ENJOY the flying - even if I don't get paid as much in flying - as long as it covers the bills I will be happy. :-)
Also a tip for applicants, I know mining companies actually use software to scan CV's, and the software picks out the CV's to show to the HR Recruitment.... it scans for Keywords that they choose.... like "SAFETY", "LEADERSHIP", "SOP" etc. ...not sure if Virgin use such software - but it wouldn't surprise me.
Also a tip for applicants, I know mining companies actually use software to scan CV's, and the software picks out the CV's to show to the HR Recruitment.... it scans for Keywords that they choose.... like "SAFETY", "LEADERSHIP", "SOP" etc. ...not sure if Virgin use such software - but it wouldn't surprise me.
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and, at the risk of sounding like a nerd, I love flying
That is another curious thing about interviewing.
Over the years, I have been confused, bemused and frustrated by the number of people who we want to employ but who convince us not to because of a professed lack of passion for aviation. There is nothing uncool about loving what you do. It is what drives a career wanting to be better at our craft and noone on the interview panel is Chuck Yeager. Most pilots have to work to maintain a good standard.
What is important to us above almost everything else is, are you the type of person who will still be engaged enough by what you do to still be putting in the effort required to achieve well in 5, 10, 20 years time?
What sort of Captain will you make and what impression will you leave on your subordinate crew at the end of a trip and career?
This strikes at the cultural core of any airline. Be surrounded by people who want to be good at what they do and you will find yourself in that mind set as well.
One final thought. No recruitment protocol is infallible. We all know people who got the job that should have gone to some one else. That is not right nor is it fair but that is life. Sometimes a persons best attribute is their ability to sell themselves and the employer gets to wear that mistake for 30 + years. Don't waste any energy worrying about why that guy got the job. Just do what DDAO did and get on with it.
One final, final thought. I wonder how many people have tried to enlist the advice of DDAO. She is recently successful not once but twice in applications for Cadetship. I would have expected a raft of questions directed to her about all manner of things and maybe that happened on a PM platform out of view. I hope so. She was gracious enough to share her experience here and that makes her a resource prime for plucking.
(I hope you don't mind the reference, DDAO)
Good Luck to you all.
That is another curious thing about interviewing.
Over the years, I have been confused, bemused and frustrated by the number of people who we want to employ but who convince us not to because of a professed lack of passion for aviation. There is nothing uncool about loving what you do. It is what drives a career wanting to be better at our craft and noone on the interview panel is Chuck Yeager. Most pilots have to work to maintain a good standard.
What is important to us above almost everything else is, are you the type of person who will still be engaged enough by what you do to still be putting in the effort required to achieve well in 5, 10, 20 years time?
What sort of Captain will you make and what impression will you leave on your subordinate crew at the end of a trip and career?
This strikes at the cultural core of any airline. Be surrounded by people who want to be good at what they do and you will find yourself in that mind set as well.
One final thought. No recruitment protocol is infallible. We all know people who got the job that should have gone to some one else. That is not right nor is it fair but that is life. Sometimes a persons best attribute is their ability to sell themselves and the employer gets to wear that mistake for 30 + years. Don't waste any energy worrying about why that guy got the job. Just do what DDAO did and get on with it.
One final, final thought. I wonder how many people have tried to enlist the advice of DDAO. She is recently successful not once but twice in applications for Cadetship. I would have expected a raft of questions directed to her about all manner of things and maybe that happened on a PM platform out of view. I hope so. She was gracious enough to share her experience here and that makes her a resource prime for plucking.
(I hope you don't mind the reference, DDAO)
Good Luck to you all.
Jim's advice is solid.
I've got a few cents to add.
The recruitment process is changing. It is no longer 'here's the minimum requirements, if you meet them you'll get a job.' But on the minimum requirements topic....
Coop - in about 2007, when times were good and everyone was moving through their little part of aviation, Skytrans minimum requirements were 2500 hours just to get a job flying a 310 out of Cairns, because it was a multi-job not stuck in some
hole like Horn island or Kunners or TFC (Tennant F'ing Creek). Virgin and QF at the time had a minimum of 500 hours multi-command and a few other bits and pieces. Now, that's not to say the rare person got in with that, but I can assure you most of Cairns that got a job at the time had over 3000 hours with a hell of a lot more than 500 multi. Minimum requirements are just that. Minimum. Why don't they just raise the minimum they expect people to have you ask? Because it's their train set and that's how they want to play with it.
I personally know an AME for QF with more flying than you who has been rejected from a couple of cadetships too. I assure you his cover letter, resume and qualifications didn't just meet the minimum but smashed them. He is a well rounded individual who any airline would be lucky to have (IMHO) and is modest (yes this is something we look at). Did he get on a forum to complain about being rejected from not one, but two cadetships? No, he's up at old Taity's on the coast smashing out CPL subjects like a lord! He sold up everything he owns and is determined to get a job the good old fashioned way.
The key words to the last paragraph here are 'well rounded.' The people who are lucky enough to get these cadetships (not something that was around when I started) don't just meet the minimum requirements, they generally have been in the industry in some form or another. They have uni qualifications too - heck, half the industry has some useless bit of paper gathering dust that plays no benefit to their actual job. They do check-in, chuck bags, or whatever just to get the experience in the industry they want to be in the rest of their career.
Equality. 40% of the QF group Chief pilot's are female. If you knew either of them, you'd know they both earned their position through hard work. Both of them have been in the industry long enough that trying to 'even the numbers' didn't exist and thus reflects their efforts more.
We all try and do our best, that's all you can ask for. Perhaps the question the OP should've asked wasn't what he had to get rejected, but what the successful candidates did have to get such a meritorious position. I know a couple of cadets who both gladly offer their time to discuss this with anyone who asks.
If you get rejected, reapply. It's called tenacity.
RC
I've got a few cents to add.
The recruitment process is changing. It is no longer 'here's the minimum requirements, if you meet them you'll get a job.' But on the minimum requirements topic....
Coop - in about 2007, when times were good and everyone was moving through their little part of aviation, Skytrans minimum requirements were 2500 hours just to get a job flying a 310 out of Cairns, because it was a multi-job not stuck in some
hole like Horn island or Kunners or TFC (Tennant F'ing Creek). Virgin and QF at the time had a minimum of 500 hours multi-command and a few other bits and pieces. Now, that's not to say the rare person got in with that, but I can assure you most of Cairns that got a job at the time had over 3000 hours with a hell of a lot more than 500 multi. Minimum requirements are just that. Minimum. Why don't they just raise the minimum they expect people to have you ask? Because it's their train set and that's how they want to play with it. I personally know an AME for QF with more flying than you who has been rejected from a couple of cadetships too. I assure you his cover letter, resume and qualifications didn't just meet the minimum but smashed them. He is a well rounded individual who any airline would be lucky to have (IMHO) and is modest (yes this is something we look at). Did he get on a forum to complain about being rejected from not one, but two cadetships? No, he's up at old Taity's on the coast smashing out CPL subjects like a lord! He sold up everything he owns and is determined to get a job the good old fashioned way.
The key words to the last paragraph here are 'well rounded.' The people who are lucky enough to get these cadetships (not something that was around when I started) don't just meet the minimum requirements, they generally have been in the industry in some form or another. They have uni qualifications too - heck, half the industry has some useless bit of paper gathering dust that plays no benefit to their actual job. They do check-in, chuck bags, or whatever just to get the experience in the industry they want to be in the rest of their career.
Equality. 40% of the QF group Chief pilot's are female. If you knew either of them, you'd know they both earned their position through hard work. Both of them have been in the industry long enough that trying to 'even the numbers' didn't exist and thus reflects their efforts more.
We all try and do our best, that's all you can ask for. Perhaps the question the OP should've asked wasn't what he had to get rejected, but what the successful candidates did have to get such a meritorious position. I know a couple of cadets who both gladly offer their time to discuss this with anyone who asks.
If you get rejected, reapply. It's called tenacity.
RC
Last edited by romeocharlie; 15th Jun 2017 at 23:44. Reason: Grammatical errors, I'm sure there's more.
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Assessment centre invites out now.
Anyone know if the ab initio and advanced will be done at the same time?
Seems about 8-10 people per day? Fair bit of culling still to do it would seem.
Anyone know if the ab initio and advanced will be done at the same time?
Seems about 8-10 people per day? Fair bit of culling still to do it would seem.
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I also got an invite to the Assessment Day. I'm in the advanced stream of applicants. Another guy I know is in the ab-initio stream of applicants, both on on the same day so it seems they both streams will be done on the same day. Anyone know how many applicant we would be down to now??
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I was too slow to see how many interview spots there were but I assume total number is however many multiplied by day. I'm going to guess about 10-12 days, probably 8 per day. Assume equal for advanced and ab initio and we're likely in the top 30-50 for each stream. Could be totally wrong of course.
Nice surprise that both are done on the same assessment days (sort of) double your odds.
I have a hunch they'll hire at the upper limit of their cadet class sizes, given their direct entry hiring.
Nice surprise that both are done on the same assessment days (sort of) double your odds.
I have a hunch they'll hire at the upper limit of their cadet class sizes, given their direct entry hiring.
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Soooo... Initially I was notified I was unsuccessful for the AB initio process... but just one hour ago I was emailed a message saying I agreed to come to the assessment day... welp... I better take this opportunity.
So how are you guys prepping for this?
So how are you guys prepping for this?
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I think everyone got it. Don't get too excited unfortunately!