King Air down at Essendon?
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Your underlying assumption continues to be that the trim was in that position at the start of the take-off roll. Whilst a reasonable assumption, it does not necessarily follow that it was in that position at that time. As always, there’s no explanation as to how the trim got into that position.
Last edited by tcasblue; 14th Dec 2020 at 18:13.
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B200 is certified under FAR23 in the normal category. It doesn’t require all the bells and whistles that a FAR 25 aircraft does.
Killer items check-great idea. Dassault have a FATS check in all their aircraft. Done in the line ups- Correct Flaps selected and set, Air brakes retracted, Trims set, Speeds set
Killer items check-great idea. Dassault have a FATS check in all their aircraft. Done in the line ups- Correct Flaps selected and set, Air brakes retracted, Trims set, Speeds set
Out of curiosity, have any Kingairs had an accident with full right trim? Could it be trim position markings as mentioned by Al Fentanyl? Can any other contributors say they have taxied out with full trim only to pick it up at tcasblue’s “killer items” check?
Plenty of aircraft including multi-crew RPT have crashed from incorrectly set items.
Plenty of aircraft including multi-crew RPT have crashed from incorrectly set items.
Familiar with an A36 that attempted take off with trim set full nose down, managed to rotate with an immediate return to earth resulting in mucho damage. Came out of maintenance and individual in a rush to get home before last light.
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Does not matter at all how in the first place the trim was placed in this position.
At the end of the day the PIC has to take full responsibility. The end.
The evidence clearly shows that the trim jacks position. It should be noted that in this this position it can not be put in this position due the accident.
Conned.
Can you post a copy of or link to the IPB/maintenance manual pages that show all of the components and physical layout of the rudder trim system?
Can you post a copy of or link to the IPB/maintenance manual pages that show all of the components and physical layout of the rudder trim system?
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Could it be trim position markings as mentioned by Al Fentanyl?
In the Viscount, each rudder trim number had a a vertical indice of the same size next to it. For example, the trim reading could show number 9 but the small indice immediately adjacent to that number could make it look like 19.
Before final approach, the PF was briefed for an intended all engines touch and go. This included the PF would not select ground fine but keep all four throttles against the idle stops like any other landing until the instructor had centralised the rudder trim, reset the elevator trim for takeoff and retracted the flaps to the takeoff position. Those actions completed (about ten seconds max), the instructor would tell the PF to apply takeoff power on all engines and complete the takeoff normally.
Initially, everything went as briefed - or so the instructor thought; including the rudder trim being wound rapidly back to neutral. Shortly after liftoff on all engines, the PF muttered something about the rudder trim. The instructor looked down at the pedestal where the rudder trim in the Viscount was situated, and was startled to see he had inadvertently wound the knob to ten units instead of zero units. The problem being the indice and the number zero looked like zero units. However, because the instructor was looking down and to his left at a slight angle to see the rudder trim knob which he had intended to be neutral rudder trim, it had been inadvertently set to 10 units. This may sound confusing to the reader and perhaps a photo of the Viscount rudder trim knob should have been included. The whole point of this post was to show how markings of the various units of rudder trim on the Viscount and possibly the Kingair, could easily cause momentary confusion.
The lesson learned from that incident was it was not good airmanship to complicate things by turning a practice asymmetric landing (albeit using zero thrust on the "dead" engine) into an all engines touch and go. Put bluntly, the instructor was over-confident in his own ability to handle a busy situation. The instructor is busy enough as it is. He is not only watching the landing but has the extra work involved in looking down at the pedestal in order to reset flaps, plus re-setting rudder and elevator trims while at the same time relying on the PF to keep straight down the runway centre-line and lift off at the correct speed.
One can readily understand how a quick downward glance at the rudder trim setting in a King Air may not be enough to ensure it is in the correct position for the task at hand. In the case of the Viscount incident, the writer pleads guilty as charged Your Honour..
Last edited by Centaurus; 28th Dec 2020 at 05:29.
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Has it been discounted that the trim was moved to that position during the flight? With a disking prop on one side that could have easily been the case. Its the most common killer in the King Air.
How did it get to full right trim in the first place?
Asked about it one day after I found all the trims at full deflection following maintenance, his reply was that it was my job as a pilot to check the trims.
Stupid.
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It used to be a common defect in the Duchess. The pilot would check full and free movement and in correct sense of rudder, ailerons and elevator as part of the pretakeoff check. As full aileron was being applied the aileron (?) trim would move in sympathy and stay in its last position when the control wheel was centralised. As one LAME told me when I wrote it up in the MR "Don't worry about it, it happems all the time and not worth writing it up in the MR".
. There are cowboy LAME's in the game as well as cowboy pilots.
. There are cowboy LAME's in the game as well as cowboy pilots.
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I will repeat my prior assertion that the rudder trim was displaced during the accident breakup sequence. Let me ask you all to consider the significant climb rate of a King Air with two engines operating and the gear remaining down. Now you have that picture in your head consider the photographic evidence showing the actual, much reduced, climb rate of the accident aircraft. There is no doubt in my mind that this was power lever migration and unfortunately it wasn't recognised by the pilot flying. It is a travesty that the ATSB have missed a golden opportunity to educate the King Air pilot community to a latent killer.
Groggy
Groggy
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I will repeat my prior assertion that the rudder trim was displaced during the accident breakup sequence. Let me ask you all to consider the significant climb rate of a King Air with two engines operating and the gear remaining down. Now you have that picture in your head consider the photographic evidence showing the actual, much reduced, climb rate of the accident aircraft. There is no doubt in my mind that this was power lever migration and unfortunately it wasn't recognised by the pilot flying. It is a travesty that the ATSB have missed a golden opportunity to educate the King Air pilot community to a latent killer.
Groggy
Groggy
the rudder trim control surface was still attached to the Trim actulator.
trim required rotary motion to turn into linear. Linear cannot be turned into rotational see above statement.
accident site shows zero reason that any other force can move the trim position
im lead to believe that the forward trim position wheel was in the position of the trim surface position.
there is no electrical motors attached to this trim system so no way for any trim runaway.
any break in the trim cable renders the system inoperative
hence at the accident site the rudder trim was in this position.
so please explain again how it is possible that the trim was in the position and cause by the accident.
most likely he hasn’t set the power lever friction was not set and it experienced roll back he thought he lost an engine place the trim into this position. Also I dare say he had the rudder boost selection to the off position.
if you could hold the rudder without rudder boost it would not be installed in the aircraft.
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Ok I will bite. The trim system is cable operated. During the breakup the right trim cable is severed. The left trim cable remains attached but stretched tight by the breakup sequence imitating that there is left trim required thus rotating the left trim actuator to its maximum before it to severs. This action would have turned the cockpit knob full left and caused full left rudder in an instant. Much like when a marlin hits the bait on a fishing rod and you see the reel spinning at great speed against the clutch brake. Another way to visualise this is to imagine you could insert your hand into the aircraft fuselage at mid point and grab the left trim cable at mid point between the cockpit and the tail and give it a massive tug. The result would be the same.
I have personally experienced PLM in a King Air and I have seen it happen to other pilots. I have also simulated the Essendon scenario in the simulator and even though I knew what was coming ended up over the top of the same building. The ATSB have made a massive mistake which in their defence I can understand because they don't have experience on the type. I stick to my comments in my previous post.
Groggy
I have personally experienced PLM in a King Air and I have seen it happen to other pilots. I have also simulated the Essendon scenario in the simulator and even though I knew what was coming ended up over the top of the same building. The ATSB have made a massive mistake which in their defence I can understand because they don't have experience on the type. I stick to my comments in my previous post.
Groggy
Conned.
Can you post a copy of or link to the IPB/maintenance manual pages that show all of the components and physical layout of the rudder trim system?
Can you post a copy of or link to the IPB/maintenance manual pages that show all of the components and physical layout of the rudder trim system?
