The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

King Air down at Essendon?

Old 21st May 2021, 04:02
  #1341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Further away
Posts: 933
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
Checklist correct use - I know a 350 operator of 26 years who are still arguing about this
megle2 is offline  
Old 21st May 2021, 04:39
  #1342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 0
Received 262 Likes on 143 Posts
KADS crash: diverging left very shortly after liftoff.
YMEN crash: very similar.
The only similarity I see with those two accidents is the left deviation of horizontal tracking. The KADS crash the Kingair is quite clearly banking over to inverted in the pictures available, highlighting an uncontrolled yaw/roll. The YMEN accident the aircraft is maintained wings level showing a significant amount of control prior to impact. I would assume, that if the pilot at YMEN had full right aileron but also left rudder, which would be a coordination exercise in itself, the aircraft would have similarly lost lateral control as well and rolled. This would be only be worsened by actual power loss on the left side, which would have made an uncontrolled roll inevitable, which did not happen.
43Inches is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2021, 02:30
  #1343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
Have you any first-hand experience, either in the simulator or the aircraft, of flight with the rudder trim set to full nose left deflection and both engines delivering maximum thrust?


In answer to the question, the higher the airspeed the greater the rudder load, Whether it be one engine at flight idle or full opposite rudder trim at takeoff power and 140 knots will require full opposite rudder, in my opinion holding that load on one leg without full rudder trim in the correct sense would cause muscle fatigue and failure in about 30 seconds. For a V1 cut excercise, 95kts, requires full opposite rudder, without rudder trim, I doubt your leg would make it to 140kts.



Xeptu is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2021, 02:40
  #1344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,007
Received 214 Likes on 120 Posts
Thanks Xeptu.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 28th Jun 2021, 12:27
  #1345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes on 11 Posts
Your welcome. Be aware there will be differences of opinion. I'm a 20.7.1b person and use claytons for takeoff performance procedure and terrain clearance departure procedures. Those that have had no exposure or knowledge of that will have a different technique more akin to the normal cat procedures, yes I know those terms have changed, I'm old.
Unless you are briefed by those in the know while climbing to 400ft at V2, it takes quite a few times to get your head around "it's ok you can relax your leg now the rudder pedal will stay there. it buffets a bit and it's a weird un-natural feeling. Rudder boost in all cases is nothing more than a stand on this one.
Xeptu is offline  
Old 21st Sep 2021, 07:40
  #1346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Australia
Posts: 500
Received 50 Likes on 18 Posts
Coronial investigation in this accident is finally underway.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ring/100480126


Cloudee is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2023, 21:13
  #1347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,620
Received 93 Likes on 45 Posts
Not sure if youíll be able to read this behind the paywall:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...16-p5dojv.html

Seems the airport owner allegedly didnít follow guidelines when building a shopping centre next to the runway. Who would have thought?
Squawk7700 is offline  
The following 2 users liked this post by Squawk7700:
Old 18th Jul 2023, 07:18
  #1348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Canberra ACT Australia
Posts: 524
Received 86 Likes on 49 Posts
The ATSB investigation details a 2003 email it uncovered, in which an Essendon Airport management officer advised that CASA had agreed verbally to the airport applying a strip width of 180 metres rather than 300 metres.

“This should open up about 36,000 square metres of new land for development,” the email says.

Essendon Airport relied heavily on a letter from a CASA officer confirming that interpretation a month later, but CASA told the ATSB investigation that advice was wrong and had no legal validity.
This is another example of CASA apparently ‘disowning’ responsibility for its own officer’s inconvenient actions.

It appears that the only way in which to have confidence that anything written by any CASA officer is CASA’s position is to write to the CEO and seek confirmation that the CEO acknowledges and accepts that what the CASA officer said is CASA’s position.
Clinton McKenzie is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Jul 2023, 01:33
  #1349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: All at sea
Posts: 2,122
Received 103 Likes on 68 Posts
Originally Posted by Squawk7700
Not sure if you’ll be able to read this behind the paywall:

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...16-p5dojv.html

Seems the airport owner allegedly didn’t follow guidelines when building a shopping centre next to the runway. Who would have thought?
The airport owner (and CASA, if implicated) will argue that the buildings had no influence on the outcome of the King Air crash. In this particular case they would be right, but it was sheer luck that no one was there on the ground to get hurt.
If a heavier bizjet plows into the shopping centre and kills a dozen or two seeking some retail therapy, Essendon Airport will close overnight. It will briefly open for ferry flight take-offs only. CASA will claim to have eliminated the risk.
The developers will circle like sharks, hangars will become trendy apartments, and the runways will make very convenient parking areas for new high rise buildings.
How to destroy valuable aviation infrastructure 101.

Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 19th Jul 2023 at 01:44.
Mach E Avelli is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 19th Jul 2023, 09:35
  #1350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Here and there
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
There are two sets of rules. One for some and one for the others. In regard to Essendon it would appear that the development extended far beyond the original boundary from the runway.
By the time anyone realised what was going on it was too late to pull the concrete up.
R
runway16 is offline  
Old 19th Jul 2023, 12:15
  #1351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aus
Posts: 2,522
Likes: 0
Received 262 Likes on 143 Posts
Originally Posted by Mach E Avelli
The airport owner (and CASA, if implicated) will argue that the buildings had no influence on the outcome of the King Air crash. In this particular case they would be right, but it was sheer luck that no one was there on the ground to get hurt.
If a heavier bizjet plows into the shopping centre and kills a dozen or two seeking some retail therapy, Essendon Airport will close overnight. It will briefly open for ferry flight take-offs only. CASA will claim to have eliminated the risk.
The developers will circle like sharks, hangars will become trendy apartments, and the runways will make very convenient parking areas for new high rise buildings.
How to destroy valuable aviation infrastructure 101.
I completely agree there, the horse has already bolted. Any push to remedy the boundaries will result in no change to the shops and more restrictions on Aviation, and push Essendon closer to a shut down date. Australian politicians will never push back on developers, the pollis involved might 'take one for the team' and resign or spend a few night in min security hotel or even just be told they have been bad and nothing else, like a recent 'very corrupt' but 'we won't do anything about it' ex NSW elected.
43Inches is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.