Radar Coverage at Ballina

[triadic]

I think that Ambidjii set one up at BRM pre tower. Some attempts also at AYE but not sure if it came off??? Trouble is everyone wants someone else to pay!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I figured that the cost/benefit would be a pretty hard sell. At the time I remember discussing it with my boss (Airport Manager amongst his other hats) , and he remarked that he would never be able to recover the costs if user pays was applied, did not want a bar of the potential risks/liabilities, and that it was typical government thinking....decide a service was not warranted and cease providing it, and then come out and say here's a great idea and expect someone else to pay for it.

[Capn Bloggs]

Precisely why "your friendly unicom of the 70s and 80s" does not work...

[LeadSled]

Precisely why "your friendly unicom of the 70s and 80s" does not work...

Folks,
Amazing, is it not, that things aeronautical that work just fine in many countries, and have done successfully for years, undoubtedly as an aid to aviation safety, ie: risk reduction.

But ----- will not work in Australia???

The "only soldier in the battalion marching in step" syndrome, some of which Australia, aviation wise, is an undoubted world leader ---- resulting in out very inferior air safety outcomes.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

The problem with you, Leadsled, is that you have no idea what goes on out in the bush here. Go to Paraburdoo (or any number of other places around the traps) and point out to me ONE person who has the time to talk to aircraft on the CTAF or maintain ANY semblance of a traffic picture. Then go and tell all the pax that get off RPT there and tell them that some office wally (no offence intended) who is also doing ramp and load control, is keeping an eye on us so we don't run into each other.

As I said, we don't have the 70s and 80s "follow me" girls, run-out-to-compete-for-turnaround-services FBO people to do all that nice stuff that you get in the US of A. Face reality!

Speaking of reality, I see RHS has started his Airspace 2015 campaign. Perhaps you'd liek to explain ot us all how Class E would have helped the 3 IFR deal with that VFR that MJBOW2 said was making things dicey in Ballina in the bad weather of post one. Or are VFR exempt from participation in the real airpsace system, free to just do their own thing oblivious to all others?

And yes, the Flight Service Stations at Port Hedland and Ayers Rock (and formerly at Broome) work very well, thanks. Graded service for the level of risk.

Toodle Pop.

[LeadSled]

The problem with you, Leadsled, is that you have no idea what goes on out in the bush here.

Just about a standard answer --- another way of saying "it won't work in Australia".

At the core of the objections are people like you, who are so convinced that what you are doing now is the only answer ---- and the rest of the world (not just US) has got it wrong.

As for reverting to a Flight Service system, forget it, although I don't expect you to believe it, the only reason we had (policy wise) two separate systems was militant unions, if one system was struck, the other would keep domestic aviation going, sort of. That was the political reason we ever had a dual system, not because it was the best answer, aviation wise. Facts can be so inconvenient.

In my early days, it got used that way just once. All ATC in the ASSY FIR was shut down for quite a while. It was quite interesting at the time.

As for the VFR at Ballina example, tell us all again why E with positive separation between all IFR, would have been less safe than G!!!

If the weather was so bad, why was the VFR there at all --- was it really keeping the necessary vertical and lateral distance from cloud.

Or was a non-problem turned in to a perception of a problem because of the penchant for Regional pilots to play mobile ATC from their flight stations.

Tootle pip!!

[Capn Bloggs]

Good on ya Leddie; full of ideology, a bit of union-bashing thrown in, throw a few more punches at the inconsiderate Regional airline pilots, but nothing of substance.

Nothing like being controlled around the sky on/by Centre and having to self-separate with a VFR on the CTAF. To quote MJBOW2:

The day in question involved 3 IFR aircraft and 1 VFR with stratus layers of cloud and rain showers in the vicinity. The frantic controller gave up trying to give ongoing updates on everyone's position as 2 aircraft were on the CTAF and 2 were on Centre frequency then 1 went back to CTAF as they thought there might be a conflict based on Centre's traffic information. In short it was unsafe and an absolute cluster!

You may well ask what that VFR was doing in there! Let's fix that; put in a Class D tower and VFR can pay their fair share, since they are part of the problem...

[Dick Smith]

I would certainly support a Class D tower before a $13.5 million fire station with 17 staff.

Even better - the tower operated on a contract basis by ATCs. Years ago a group of Aussie ATCs contacted me as they wanted to run contract towers at a far lower cost than AsA. Means we could get twice as many towers as there would be no need to cover the enormous AsA Canberra overheads.

And Bloggs. Have you ever flown a class E approach in France, the U.S. or Canada? I have many times , both in radar covered and no radar airspace. I would prefer the safety of class E . I have not experienced delays.

And what's wrong with the Firies running the Unicom and giving traffic info?

Suggest everyone reads the major article on this on the front page of the Aus this weekend or listen to Macca today. It's just the start!

And I flew into Newman a few weeks ago. Ridiculous! Hugely expensive RFFS without even a Unicom ,tower or controlled airspace to help prevent runway collisions or mid airs in the first place

[Clare Prop]

Facepalm.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian Pilots, victims’ families call for change as planes fly blind

"Smith’s friend and co-pilot on the flight to Ballina, former US Air Force F-16 fighter pilot and airline captain Richard Woodward, says the Australian system “drives me nuts”.

“You’ve got this very advanced national air traffic control system but, instead, you have pilot*s flying around in clouds saying to each other, ‘Hi, I’m here, where are you, let’s work out how not to crash into each other’,” Woodward says."

Well I have never heard anyone say anything of the kind on CTAF or in G or elsewhere, People will read this absolute inaccurate drivel and believe it! Is Mr Woodward on this forum? If so, please stand up.

And having a CA/GRO (a very experienced former SATCO) at Jandakot didn't prevent one aeroplane landing on top of the other, something he had no power to prevent. Thank goodness we got the tower back after that little experiment.

[LeadSled]

Bloggs,
Difficult as it may be for you to comprehend, I am a former branch officer of the AFAP, and I have seen, up close and personal over the years, just how much damage ratbag union policies (not limited to the AFAP) have done to Australian aviation.

The history of the necessary formation of AIPA is the history of the ratbag policies of AFAP that simply ignored the real world of aviation technical development. It is simply impossible to estimate the cost to Australian aviation of the "Two Airline" policy and its "beneficiaries".

Indeed, the "regulations" that have resulted in Ballina (and elsewhere) now having unjustified on-airport fire services were put together by two "officers of the Dept. of Transport" who were ex-firies, and remained members of that union.

Any suggestion of rational risk analysis, and cost/benefit justification was bluntly rejected at the time, in favour of generating jobs for firies at the expense of the traveling public.

It remains a fact that there has never been an aviation accident on an airport/aerodrome in Australia, where the presence of on-airport ARFF has made any difference to the primary outcome.

A bit more union bashing in the interests of economic aviation jobs in Australia would be a damned good thing ---- but look at where we are going, with the likelihood of "cabotage" rights for foreign carriers above the Tropic of Capricorn, because of a perception of union resistance to change damaging tourism in particular, and business generally.

Not for one minute would I accept that such traffic rights are justified, but a perception has been generated, just like the perception that E airspace doesn't work.

As to Class D at Ballina, that is exactly what should be instituted at Ballina, a Class D tower, if the demonstrated traffic levels equal or exceed to establishment levels for a Class D tower.

As for the reported statements of Captain Richard Woodward, ex- NWA ( aka Lt. Colonel Richard Woodward, USAF Retired), of course they are not the words used in the air, that is a paraphrase of EXACTLY what goes on, in terms the public can understand. Do-it-yourself ATC.

Tootle pip!!

[NOtimTAMs]

I fly in and out of Ballina regularly in my own IFR (and now ADSB equipped) lighty in all kinds of weather. Until the new RNP RNAV procedures came out, I would regularly be able to get in where the RPT’s couldn’t. I get radar identified most times at about 1100-1300’.

RPT, Emergency services, 2 flying schools (fixed wing – ex-Jetstar CFI, and rotary), GA + ultralight traffic coexist quite well. The local flying club is proactive enough to brief its members on what the IFR procedures are, so when Captain (or FO) Skygod in the inbound Airbus/Boeing/Embraer announces they are on the 06 or 22 RNAV at waypoint XX, folks know what they’re on about (still can’t get the Skygods to give a sensible VFR-intelligible position report - or an accurate ETA for that matter).

In low cloudbase conditions it is uncommon to have 2-3 IFR inbound/outbound and rare to have more than that. Occasionally there is a gaggle of RPT arrivals if things have gone wrong in Sydney and Rex, Virgin and Jetstar arrive at one. If the coast is clear and land is clagged in, there may be VFR aircraft in the area. That being said, I don’t see the fuss – even in turbulence and flying single pilot IFR with a single axis autopilot I monitor 2 frequencies and it doesn’t take too much to sort out what is a safe altitude or sector. As for Brisbane Centre being unable to give updates ….

Can’t see how a UNICOM would help – in true low cloudbase situation a UNICOM would not have primary or secondary radar to call traffic and it would be no better than self-separation which has worked fine and continues to work fine.

For more info on Ballina airspace: www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/oar/papers/ballina-study.pdf

[CaptainMidnight]

of course they are not the words used in the air, that is a paraphrase of EXACTLY what goes on, in terms the public can understand.

The unfortunate statement did him no favours. Most of the public aren't quite that stupid.

As regards the usefulness of ARFF vs. a Tower. As I understand it the regulatory requirement for the introduction of ARFF is based on pax numbers, and the requirement for introduction of a Tower is based on aircraft movements. Presumably Ballina and Newman don't yet have the movements to justify a Tower.

If you don't like it, have the regs changed.

[cogwheel]

I believe the crux of this issue is the inability of many pilots in Australia to come to terms with Class E airspace. Nobody likes change, but there is one thing that is consistent in this business, and that is change! If we are to develop and use the international classes of airspace then we need to understand what each class provides and then work within those boundaries. Class E is fine with or without radar, but you need to be aware that in VMC you need to keep a lookout as it is only the IFRs that ATC are working. If there is radar coverage you may get some traffic info, but as you get lower of course the coverage usually limits that. Of course the other issue is that in class G and in the CTAFs far too many pilots don't think before they hit the PTT and as a result there is far too much talk. Some standardisation would be good with some education, but I don't see that happening as many of the CASA officers don't understand the basics either!!

[LeadSled]

"what would a bloody Yank military and airline pilot know about flying in Australia anyway?".

Typical xenophobic, exceptionalist and generally biased ignorant remark I would expect ---- after all, the air is different in Australia.

And, the average John Q. Public actually believes it is Australia's superior aviation regulations and CASA that prevents Australian irresponsible, borderline suicidal pilots from "crashing" ---- ain't propaganda wonderful, given the reality of a very very ordinary Australian aviation safety record.

Perhaps, after so many years in Australia, Captain Woodward does know a little about Australian airspace management and its shortcomings, maybe that is why the Commonwealth Government hired him as an airspace management consultant to NAS.

Catseye,
Different Richard Woodward.

Cogwheel,
Well said.

If you don't like it, have the regs changed.

Midnight,
I did my level best to get the at the time Government policy for rational risk assessment and cost/benefit justification applied, as was theoretically mandatory, but public servants in general and CASA in particular systemically hate such cost discipline, because they imagine they all know better than the demonstrated facts --- all justified by the "mystique of aviation safety".

Load a union push to retain/increase jobs on top of all that, I couldn't beat it, and once such things go into place, it is even harder to amend, unless you have a Minister with real fire, no matter how wasteful and expensive the " safety regulations".

Aviation in general in Australia, and GA in particular is being not so slowly crushed by the cost of so called "safety regulation" in Australia, it is all very sad, when it could be so different.

The number of pilots coming in on 457 visas is one measure of where we are at!! Thanks, CASA.

Tootle pip!!

[CaptainMidnight]

I hear what you're saying, Leady

Perhaps, after so many years in Australia, Captain Woodward does know a little about Australian airspace management and its shortcomings, maybe that is why the Commonwealth Government hired him as an airspace management consultant to NAS.

It's a pity that didn't come out in the publicity and press. Captain Woodward is clearly experienced and across the Australian airspace management environment, and therefore no doubt provided valuable advice during the NAS exercise. Its a pity if at the time that advice and expertise wasn't followed.

Cogwheel - agree also.

And what's wrong with the Firies running the Unicom and giving traffic info?

Dick - I agree. They are highly trained professionals, and being part of Airservices one would think they could arrange for the ATC academy to give them the relevant training modules.

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by Dick Smith

And what's wrong with the Firies running the Unicom and giving traffic info?

What is this paranoia you have about needing to talk to people, Dick? There's a beepback and an AWIB. That's all you need. Unicoms are part of a bygone era. Get over it.

As for

They are highly trained professionals

at putting out fires! Not providing RPT with a traffic service. That is what ATC/Class F is for. So one second we're sledging the Firies because they are a monumental waste of money, now we're going to train them as ATC-Lite, just because they are there. How much extra is that going to cost for no benefit?

Class E is fine with or without radar, but you need to be aware that in VMC you need to keep a lookout as it is only the IFRs that ATC are working.

Oh that's nice, Cog. Let me add that to my PA. It's 2015 with safety management cruelling almost everything on earth and a vociferous minority of VFR pilots insist on having airspace that requires me to look out to avoid them! For goodness sake, get real. The most pathetic thing I used to hear on the airwaves was Centre passing, to almost every jet inbound from the east to Perth, VFR traffic on a parachuting aircraft operating in E. Fortunately, after a VFR Tobago almost took out a Virgin 737 in Tassie because it misjudged where the 737 was actually going and caused an RA, terminal E got canned.

What right does VFR have to do what they like in terminal airspace occupied by A380s using unalerted See and Avoid to prevent midairs?? Are you guys serious??

Ledsled, please describe where and when Qantas ever flew through Class E in the USA.

As for the Virgin driver spruiking doom, death and gloom at Ballina, how about holding overhead at 7000ft until it's all clear?

I'm glad there is a little sanity here... Notimtams .

[Lookleft]

The reason Jetstar radio calls into Ballina are crap is that they keep sending the most inexperienced F/Os and they are handling the radios. Their only previous experience of CTAFs was flying light aircraft with an instructor onboard. As for Jetstar being Skygods thats the funniest thing I have ever heard. All we are trying to do is get in and out of that place without being made SOC because of a breakdown in separation.

[no_one]

Ledsled, please describe where and when Qantas ever flew through Class E in the USA

Everytime they fly into LAX/DFW or JFK!!!!!

The class B only extends to about 10,000 above the airport. Above that and below class A at 18,0000 is class E

[NOtimTAMs]

Lookleft- That Skygod thing stung, huh? In the interests of fairness, I’ve edited my previous post to widen the range of aircraft involved. I didn’t coin the term “Skygod”, BTW. I got it from my more or less regular flying buddy who flies A380’s (he hand-flies my plane in IMC beautifully…but still flares a little high, for some reason).

To be serious: Ballina has no parallel taxiway. When an RPT arrives or departs, the runway is unavailable for 5-10 minutes due to the associated turn and full length runway taxi time. If multiple RPT arrive or depart closely spaced, then the runway is not available for a commensurately increased period of time. So you can see that timing and cooperation is important for all.

Things that don’t help trust of the inbound RPT’s (and other jet traffic’s) calls or can otherwise cause problems are:

Announcing an ETA that is 5 or more minutes earlier than real ETA to try and keep “the circuit area clear” – inbound GA aircraft try to be understanding and will elect to hold clear of the RPT/jet approach if their ETA is close to the RPT/jet ETA. Pilots of aircraft who do thus to accommodate get pissed off when the ETA comes and goes and a further 5 minutes pass until actual arrival time of RPT….. and the GA could after all have landed and vacated well before the RPT actual arrival time and now will have to hold for what will be a total of 15-20 minutes - for no good reason.

Making a radio call that makes no sense to the non-IFR initiated, as per my previous post. That an “inexperienced FO” in an RPT operation makes the call is no defence – they have an experienced captain beside them and Jetstar ops have been notified of the problem previously. Experienced captains are there to pass on their experience to the inexperienced….

Directing traffic – a call like this on the CTAF to: a VFR GA aircraft on long downwind from an RPT 25 NM mile out: “Hold north of the field until after we land” or to: a GA IFR in IMC on 5NM final “Maintain 2000” etc. Really?

Arriving and flying a left hand circuit on RWY 06 – it’s a right hand circuit according to the ERSA….

It is only a small minority who do the “Skygod” thing out of ego or ignorance – but they need to remember that the folks flying around them are often very experienced ATPL’s in their own aircraft and it reflects poorly on them....

Just do the right thing and the system will work.

As for a tower or ARFF at Ballina – a WOFTAM, IMHO.

[Lookleft]

Lookleft- That Skygod thing stung, huh?

No its laughable when you refer to Jetstar pilots as skygods. If you go back through any thread dealing with Jetstar pilots they are usually referred to as scum of the earth and a blight on aviation. Never are they referred to as skygods.

BTW. I got it from my more or less regular flying buddy who flies A380’s

He was probably referring to himself.

That an “inexperienced FO” in an RPT operation makes the call is no defence – they have an experienced captain beside them and Jetstar ops have been notified of the problem previously. Experienced captains are there to pass on their experience to the inexperienced….

If you have never been in the flight deck of an RPT jet coming into a small country airport then you have no idea what you are on about. Who notified Jetstar Ops and which Ops are you referring to? Jetstar Ops don't listen to their own pilots so what makes you so special?

The system was developed by a bloke who hadn't flown anything bigger than a 310 and who thought the biggest thing flying into the place would be a Dash-8. If you don't know who I am talking about ask around for the DVD that accompanied the CTAF booklet produced by DOTARS in 2005. He is full of helpful hints and tips, none of which is relevant to a 60t passenger carrying aircraft.

I do agree with DS on the point if they can put a fire station in then they can put a tower in.