Windfarms
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I regularly conduct Ag operations in amongst them while they are turning and I haven't experienced anything that I would describe as turbulence. The most dangerous part of any wind farm to a pilot is those wind monitoring towers that are always found nearby because they are so difficult to see. The NZ Ag. Association got all the ones in NZ made high vis under their OH&S laws, don't really understand the hold up in Australia for this to happen, considering the fatal accidents they have caused over seas.
On a personal note, the fact they require more 'dirty' energy to manufacture, than 'clean' energy that they will ever produce in their life, renders them kind of pointless to me.
On a personal note, the fact they require more 'dirty' energy to manufacture, than 'clean' energy that they will ever produce in their life, renders them kind of pointless to me.
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On a personal note, the fact they require more 'dirty' energy to manufacture, than 'clean' energy that they will ever produce in their life, renders them kind of pointless to me.
Apparently the same argument exists against electric cars, given the battery packs must be replaced every five to seven years.
Solar cells, ditto, due to the very dirty industrial processes required for their manufacture.
"Clean" energy might or might not exist.
"Zero-emission" energy certainly does not.
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On a personal note, the fact they require more 'dirty' energy to manufacture, than 'clean' energy that they will ever produce in their life, renders them kind of pointless to me.
While using common sense you should ask yourself where these anti clean energy stories are coming from.
Lazy repetition of untrue BS is how OWTs start and look what that has cost our industry over the years.
Only 30% efficient some earlier post lamented. So what. My aircraft engine is only 30% efficient too. It cost $50K and in it's lifetime will burn 5 times it's original cost in fuel. At least with wind turbines the meter is running the right way.
Enough for now. I'm sure the sun is over the yard arm. (and my solar panels---Kachung )
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IMO, the current styles of design of wind generators and electric car are merely initial, crude designs, that will improve out of sight with more research, improved technology and better materials.
For example, I fail to see how a big propellor is the most effective way of turning a generator. In the same way that jet engines are superior to propeller-turning IC engines, so there must be, and are, wind generator designs that are superior in efficiency, in manufacture, in lower noise levels, and in improved safety levels.
There are substantial numbers of alternative designs of wind generator already on the market and in prototype stage.
Do Alternative Designs for Wind Turbines Work? - Scientific American
The problem is, that the manufacturers of the propellor-style wind generators have ensured that their design is currently prominent, because they have aggressively marketed them, ramped up production of them, built a large database of knowledge about them, and cornered the market - just like Henry Ford did with the Model T, and Sopwith did with the Pup.
No-one in their right mind would consider manufacturing and driving a Model T or manufacturing and flying a Sopwith Pup today - but they were right for their time.
We are better situated to make use of a variety of sources of free energy, rather than totally relying on the huge monopoly that is the oil and gas industry, to provide what is essentially, a single energy source. Besides, nothing would please me more than telling the Arabs to shove their oil. I have already reduced my home electricity bill to less than $150 a year with solar panels.
I don't believe anyone complained too much about grain-grinding or water-pumping windmills in the 17th and 18th century, did they? Or were the anti-windmill "activists" of that era, shouted down and run out of town? Perhaps it was because there were no aviators around, to grumble about windmills, back then?
For example, I fail to see how a big propellor is the most effective way of turning a generator. In the same way that jet engines are superior to propeller-turning IC engines, so there must be, and are, wind generator designs that are superior in efficiency, in manufacture, in lower noise levels, and in improved safety levels.
There are substantial numbers of alternative designs of wind generator already on the market and in prototype stage.
Do Alternative Designs for Wind Turbines Work? - Scientific American
The problem is, that the manufacturers of the propellor-style wind generators have ensured that their design is currently prominent, because they have aggressively marketed them, ramped up production of them, built a large database of knowledge about them, and cornered the market - just like Henry Ford did with the Model T, and Sopwith did with the Pup.
No-one in their right mind would consider manufacturing and driving a Model T or manufacturing and flying a Sopwith Pup today - but they were right for their time.
We are better situated to make use of a variety of sources of free energy, rather than totally relying on the huge monopoly that is the oil and gas industry, to provide what is essentially, a single energy source. Besides, nothing would please me more than telling the Arabs to shove their oil. I have already reduced my home electricity bill to less than $150 a year with solar panels.
I don't believe anyone complained too much about grain-grinding or water-pumping windmills in the 17th and 18th century, did they? Or were the anti-windmill "activists" of that era, shouted down and run out of town? Perhaps it was because there were no aviators around, to grumble about windmills, back then?
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"We are better situated to make use of a variety of sources of free energy, rather than totally relying on the huge monopoly that is the oil and gas industry, to provide what is essentially, a single energy source. Besides, nothing would please me more than telling the Arabs to shove their oil. I have already reduced my home electricity bill to less than $150 a year with solar panels."
A single energy source is always dangerous but so is over reliance on wind and solar. Hence why some alternative - be it coal, oil, gas, hydro or nuclear is required for at least Peak demand if not normal demand.
"anti-windmill "activists"
It's quite OK for Greenies to protest against Hydro Electric dams on the basis it damages the land, even though it's clean, renewable energy but it's OK for them to change the rules to damage the land to install unsightly wind turbines on previously untouched ground and cause erosion of fragile ecosystems, not necessarily straight away but over time.
And all with Gov't subsidies of some sort at some point in the chain.
What makes them so special apart from being flavour of the month ?
"We are better situated to make use of a variety of sources of free energy, rather than totally relying on the huge monopoly that is the oil and gas industry, to provide what is essentially, a single energy source. Besides, nothing would please me more than telling the Arabs to shove their oil. I have already reduced my home electricity bill to less than $150 a year with solar panels."
A single energy source is always dangerous but so is over reliance on wind and solar. Hence why some alternative - be it coal, oil, gas, hydro or nuclear is required for at least Peak demand if not normal demand.
"anti-windmill "activists"
It's quite OK for Greenies to protest against Hydro Electric dams on the basis it damages the land, even though it's clean, renewable energy but it's OK for them to change the rules to damage the land to install unsightly wind turbines on previously untouched ground and cause erosion of fragile ecosystems, not necessarily straight away but over time.
And all with Gov't subsidies of some sort at some point in the chain.
What makes them so special apart from being flavour of the month ?
Last edited by 500N; 2nd Sep 2014 at 04:16.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Wind turbines? Hate the Gottverdammt things with a passion.
A visual blight on the landscape and too expensive.
A friend has some property up the Flinders Ranges way and has been approached to have some on his property. Purely on principle he told them to shove it, despite knowing that he'd make quite a bit of money having them.
A visual blight on the landscape and too expensive.A friend has some property up the Flinders Ranges way and has been approached to have some on his property. Purely on principle he told them to shove it, despite knowing that he'd make quite a bit of money having them.
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Just to continue on my band wagon for a minute.
If I want to build a tall tower, be it a Building, Mobile phone tower or whatever in areas where they have built a fair few of these Wind Turbines,
no end of objections would be forth coming, especially on the grounds of being pristine bush and unsightly.
Yet they end up being able to build in places no one else could, cutting roads across delicate pristine ground (was thinking of the wind turbines near Ararat).
And that's before we even get onto the subject of Renewable Energy Certificates (bit fat subsidies) that last from day 1 for up to (in some cases) 30 years, paid for by guess who, us, the consumers. And they are mandatory, we don't get a choice.
Efficiency
Check out this web site, actual results, not skewed by whoever writes a report.
A good example are the two wind farms near Canberra
CAPTL_WF Capital Wind Farm
WOODLWN1 Woodlawn Wind Farm
They can theoretically produce 188MW of power, they don't even get close to that. Not only that, most of the time electricity is required, they are calm and or the graph goes up and down like a yo yo which doesn't help anyone.
Wind Energy in Australia | Aneroid
This graph depicts performance of wind farms connected to the electricity grid in south-eastern Australia over a 24-hour period.
The default, capacity factor graph shows the output as a percentage of registered capacity.
On average wind farms in south-east Australia operate at a capacity factor of around 30-35%.
And just because it produces 30%, it doesn't mean that the 30% is actually produced at a time when people want it.
I'll now vacate this thread !
If I want to build a tall tower, be it a Building, Mobile phone tower or whatever in areas where they have built a fair few of these Wind Turbines,
no end of objections would be forth coming, especially on the grounds of being pristine bush and unsightly.
Yet they end up being able to build in places no one else could, cutting roads across delicate pristine ground (was thinking of the wind turbines near Ararat).
And that's before we even get onto the subject of Renewable Energy Certificates (bit fat subsidies) that last from day 1 for up to (in some cases) 30 years, paid for by guess who, us, the consumers. And they are mandatory, we don't get a choice.
Efficiency
Check out this web site, actual results, not skewed by whoever writes a report.
A good example are the two wind farms near Canberra
CAPTL_WF Capital Wind Farm
WOODLWN1 Woodlawn Wind Farm
They can theoretically produce 188MW of power, they don't even get close to that. Not only that, most of the time electricity is required, they are calm and or the graph goes up and down like a yo yo which doesn't help anyone.
Wind Energy in Australia | Aneroid
This graph depicts performance of wind farms connected to the electricity grid in south-eastern Australia over a 24-hour period.
The default, capacity factor graph shows the output as a percentage of registered capacity.
On average wind farms in south-east Australia operate at a capacity factor of around 30-35%.
And just because it produces 30%, it doesn't mean that the 30% is actually produced at a time when people want it.
I'll now vacate this thread !
Last edited by 500N; 2nd Sep 2014 at 05:03.
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Some facts about cars, from what seems to be a reputable source, the Argonne National Laboratory in the US.
Comparing conventional, hybrid and hydrogen powered cars, there's no doubt that the conventional cars are worst by a wide margin in terms of total energy used in a lifetime of production + 160,000 statute miles + disposal per vehicle. (Battery pack replacement is accounted for where relevant.) This is especially true if the vehicle is mostly used in an urban environment.
However, there is no overall winner in terms of pollutants per kilometre (CO, NOx, SOx, PM10). At this point the excessively dirty technologies used in some industries are detracting from the benefits of clean energy. For example, if your household electricity is primarily derived from coal, charging the electric car at home is not as helpful as one would hope. Dirty rare earth mining in China is a major drag on battery pack "cleanness". (Buy Lynas. They are cleaner than Chinese production, and it contributes to my retirement.
)
Still, early days. Probably not fair to compare tenth generation (?) internal combustion engines with second generation electric vehicles.
I think that's a fair summary of the information. Corrections welcomed.
Comparing conventional, hybrid and hydrogen powered cars, there's no doubt that the conventional cars are worst by a wide margin in terms of total energy used in a lifetime of production + 160,000 statute miles + disposal per vehicle. (Battery pack replacement is accounted for where relevant.) This is especially true if the vehicle is mostly used in an urban environment.
However, there is no overall winner in terms of pollutants per kilometre (CO, NOx, SOx, PM10). At this point the excessively dirty technologies used in some industries are detracting from the benefits of clean energy. For example, if your household electricity is primarily derived from coal, charging the electric car at home is not as helpful as one would hope. Dirty rare earth mining in China is a major drag on battery pack "cleanness". (Buy Lynas. They are cleaner than Chinese production, and it contributes to my retirement.
)Still, early days. Probably not fair to compare tenth generation (?) internal combustion engines with second generation electric vehicles.
I think that's a fair summary of the information. Corrections welcomed.
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They can theoretically produce 188MW of power, they don't even get close to that. Not only that, most of the time electricity is required, they are calm and or the graph goes up and down like a yo yo which doesn't help anyone.
NZ actually do wind power fairly well, as a couple of major cities are adjacent to some very windy areas of low population density. I understand Denmark is in a similar position. NZ also do geothermal and hydroelectric base load production in a fairly big way.
But even in those two places, wind power requires subsidies and tariffs to be competitive. I can't see Australian wind power being competitive in the foreseeable future.
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But even in those two places, wind power requires subsidies and tariffs to be competitive. I can't see Australian wind power being competitive in the foreseeable future.
You can't see them being competitive, because you can't see what research and knowledge gained from setting them up (in practical terms), will produce by way of new technology.
Anyone want to hazard a guess at how much subsidy money has gone into producing the set of wheels you drive?
Gubbmints hand out major subsidies to motor car manufacturers (and - gasp, yes - aircraft manufacturers as well), and a lot of that motor-car manufacturing (or aircraft manufacturing) handouts doesn't necessarily go into producing new, cutting edge designs, either! Seems like a lot of it ended up in senior executives and CEO's pockets!
I seem to recall Australia has supplied about $2.5B in motor car subsidies over the decades since car manufacturers started whining about handouts - which was not long after WW2.
Subsidies took the form of free land for buildings, substantial tax concessions, ports and roads and infrastructure, installed specifically for the manufacturer - and so on and so on.
I'm sitting on the fence when it comes to wind generators. I neither dislike them, nor do I like them enormously. I do feel they're worth adding to the energy supply mix, just to create competitiveness in the market. Perhaps wave energy will take over from wind, it's pretty promising, and it supplies more continuous power. However, it only takes one breakthrough to sometimes provide a quantum leap in the status quo. Who saw LED's providing such a bonus in low energy requirements?
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As the investment in WT in Australia is primarily by foreign backed companies, not even the subsidy stays in the country. Same for CSG. In Qld much of the CSG is owned by Koreans, Chinese. They sell the gas overseas as the price is higher and the market can take the capacity. This means that profit (and taxes on sales) goes overseas with each boat load exported.
The downside for us, apart from ruining our water supplies and depleting the artesian basin and leaving millions of tonnes of salts by-product lying around that no one knows what to do with yet, is that we can no longer be charged a domestic rate for the gas as the government was not smart enough to hive-off a separate deal to guarantee domestic supply. From next year we will be paying the same international rate for our domestic gas as everyone else.
The downside for us, apart from ruining our water supplies and depleting the artesian basin and leaving millions of tonnes of salts by-product lying around that no one knows what to do with yet, is that we can no longer be charged a domestic rate for the gas as the government was not smart enough to hive-off a separate deal to guarantee domestic supply. From next year we will be paying the same international rate for our domestic gas as everyone else.
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There's a very close correlation between GDP and energy consumption
There is a very close correlation between energy consumption and CO2 emissions
The government of most western countries, Australia included, accounts for 30%-70% of GDP
A substantial reduction of CO2 emissions could be achieved by eliminating or substantially reducing government and replacing it with wind turbines.
There is a very close correlation between energy consumption and CO2 emissions
The government of most western countries, Australia included, accounts for 30%-70% of GDP
A substantial reduction of CO2 emissions could be achieved by eliminating or substantially reducing government and replacing it with wind turbines.
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while not a fan of wind turbines, nothing like standing on the top of Mt Perisher, in awe of the inspiring vistas before me, until i see the huge wind far right in the middle of the best part of the view...
though they are great nav fixes.
i am more a fan of Solar, but not a fan of being forced to accept a far lower rate for the energy i produce, i feel we should be paid the wholesale rate that the large energy providers receive, but the last thing the big companies want is homeowners taking their profits. and can fortunately pay lobbyists to ensure it stays that way..
but the question im posing, what kind, if any,would such a development below have on Aviation?
If solar energy was bought from providers at the wholesale rate as paid to large generators, then we would see far more of this, solar covered car parks...
or projects like this..
then we would have little or no use for coal burners, Hydro and maybe small Nuke power plants for base load power.
as for nuke being very very bad? what happened to Hiroshima? and Nagasaki? are they nuclear wastelands dead for 1000's of years as predicted? doesn't get much worse than nuked in the military sense of the word... and i hear the French have great technology in Nuclear waste disposal, considering most of the country is powered by it..
though they are great nav fixes.
i am more a fan of Solar, but not a fan of being forced to accept a far lower rate for the energy i produce, i feel we should be paid the wholesale rate that the large energy providers receive, but the last thing the big companies want is homeowners taking their profits. and can fortunately pay lobbyists to ensure it stays that way..
but the question im posing, what kind, if any,would such a development below have on Aviation?
If solar energy was bought from providers at the wholesale rate as paid to large generators, then we would see far more of this, solar covered car parks...
or projects like this..
then we would have little or no use for coal burners, Hydro and maybe small Nuke power plants for base load power.
as for nuke being very very bad? what happened to Hiroshima? and Nagasaki? are they nuclear wastelands dead for 1000's of years as predicted? doesn't get much worse than nuked in the military sense of the word... and i hear the French have great technology in Nuclear waste disposal, considering most of the country is powered by it..
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"and i hear the French have great technology in Nuclear waste disposal, considering most of the country is powered by it.. "
Spose it would be like when they were doing the nuclear testing, do it in somebody else's back yard. Is their waste disposal method to sink it in the Pacifc somewhere?
Spose it would be like when they were doing the nuclear testing, do it in somebody else's back yard. Is their waste disposal method to sink it in the Pacifc somewhere?