Multicom vs area frequency
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Can somebody please show me where you need to say anything at all flying at a "paddock" ALA?
Not too big on history, I just do what my employers tell me to and in my private flying normally stay on gliding frequencies!
Yeah, you know, the couple of hundred of us flying around every weekend largely ignoring this crap!
Not too big on history, I just do what my employers tell me to and in my private flying normally stay on gliding frequencies!
Yeah, you know, the couple of hundred of us flying around every weekend largely ignoring this crap!
The VFR that was going up above 5000ft would make a broadcast on the Area freq before getting to 5000ft. Similarly, descending below (into the "potential" Multicom area) they would broadcast on 126.7 before they got there.
There are many Broadcast Areas (Mega CTAFs) where the frequency split at 5000ft occurs, and arguably, the same thing happens at normal CTAFs today: broadcast on the CTAF before you "enter" and broadcast on the Area during departure before getting too far away from the airport.
There are many Broadcast Areas (Mega CTAFs) where the frequency split at 5000ft occurs, and arguably, the same thing happens at normal CTAFs today: broadcast on the CTAF before you "enter" and broadcast on the Area during departure before getting too far away from the airport.
Geez guys - its not rocket science .......
I just spent six days flying in the area between Bankstown - Port Pirie - Ayers Rock - Bankstown in the C208. Most flying was at levels between 5500 and 9500. I strictly monitored the "area " frequency spending some of the time looking down at the charts to work out the correct frequency rather than looking out for other aircraft. Not once did I hear a VFR aircraft call when climbing above 5000'. I monitored hundreds of calls - not one rellevent to my flight .
On three occasions I heard the centre call VFR aircraft at identified locations-no doubt to give the pilots traffic info on nearby aircraft . At no stage did a VFR aircraft reply to the ATC call.
The current system is a sham. Either go back to the pre-AMATS system and reintroduce FS or move forward the the proven North American NAS system as decided by Federal Cabinet.
Giving non directed calls calls from VFR aircraft on frequencies used by ATC for separation purposes is clearly a safety problem. That's no doubt why most pilots do not comply.
On three occasions I heard the centre call VFR aircraft at identified locations-no doubt to give the pilots traffic info on nearby aircraft . At no stage did a VFR aircraft reply to the ATC call.
The current system is a sham. Either go back to the pre-AMATS system and reintroduce FS or move forward the the proven North American NAS system as decided by Federal Cabinet.
Giving non directed calls calls from VFR aircraft on frequencies used by ATC for separation purposes is clearly a safety problem. That's no doubt why most pilots do not comply.
Can somebody please show me where you need to say anything at all flying at a "paddock" ALA?
That’s why the definition of “aerodrome” is so important. The broadcast obligations apply when you are in the vicinity of and operating to and from an “aerodrome”.
That’s why I was hoping you’d walk us through the evolution (demolition?) of the mid-eighties system to where Australia is now.
We started by noting that back in the mid-eighties broadcasts for operations to and from Farmer Brown’s paddock and from licensed aerodromes were on the same frequency: the equivalent of what is now the area frequency. Then the old licensed aerodromes became MBZs and CTAFs and CTAF(Rs) and non-towered and unlicensed and unregistered, and they had frequencies marked on the Chart and in ERSA, there was confusion about the difference between procedures and airspace classifications, blah, blah, blah. But through it all, Farmer Brown’s paddock didn’t rate a mention.
Is Farmer Brown’s paddock an aerodrome? My (perhaps confused) assumption is that it is an aerodrome, but only during the period in which it is being used for the take off and landing of an aircraft. At other times it's used to amuse sheep. During the periods in which it is being used for the take off and landing of aircraft, it’s in the interests of safety for people to know that the place is being used for the take off and landing of aircraft. And, if Farmer Brown’s paddock isn’t marked on the charts, the only sensible frequency on which to broadcast what’s happening is – dare I say: remains – the frequency you used in the mid-eighties.
The voice of sweet reason:
If 126.7 is used for airfields that are not marked on published ASA charts, those flying in and out of them VFR will NOT be listening to area and will not be contactable by either Centre or all those other VFR pilots in the vicinity who have no idea of the airfield's presence. This would be dangerous and much more likely tp result in a tragedy.
The alternative is for ASA to require all such airfields to be notified and incorporated in the charts. Not terribly practical as is evident when you fly VFR across remote Australia.
The alternative is for ASA to require all such airfields to be notified and incorporated in the charts. Not terribly practical as is evident when you fly VFR across remote Australia.
And BTW Trent, any word on the nomination of a hive of aviation activity that isn’t marked on any aeronautical chart? Any meltdowns yet?
Edited to add: Then why not just turn the radio off and listen to music Dick? No one else complies with the rules, apparently.
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I just spent six days flying in the area between Bankstown - Port Pirie - Ayers Rock - Bankstown in the C208. Most flying was at levels between 5500 and 9500. I strictly monitored the "area " frequency spending some of the time looking down at the charts to work out the correct frequency rather than looking out for other aircraft. Not once did I hear a VFR aircraft call when climbing above 5000'. I monitored hundreds of calls - not one rellevent to my flight .
On three occasions I heard the centre call VFR aircraft at identified locations-no doubt to give the pilots traffic info on nearby aircraft . At no stage did a VFR aircraft reply to the ATC call.
On three occasions I heard the centre call VFR aircraft at identified locations-no doubt to give the pilots traffic info on nearby aircraft . At no stage did a VFR aircraft reply to the ATC call.
Perhaps those aircraft above 5000 filed their plans and made their calls in another FIA? Perhaps they were below 5000 and in proximity of an airfield with a CTAF? Or perhaps, like JR said, they just aren't listening?
Buggered if I know what conclusion should be drawn from your anecdote, but the legal requirement is pretty clear. In my view, the safety comes more from listening than making unnecessary calls in remote areas.
The only traffic I actually physically saw while in the air on my whole trip were RPT jets at AYE and BAS, helicopters at AYE, and a mate arriving at BHI in an RFDS Kingair at the same time as I joined the circuit (he waited for me, too). The absence of other light GA aerial activity was starkly apparent. The only collective activity I saw while on the ground was a group of 5 avid aviators in RAA aircraft at Curtin Springs who had arrived from the Whitsundays via Cape Leveque and were on their way home via the French Line across the Simpson.
We are having an open day and fly-in at Shepparton Aerodrome in conjunction with the Heritage weekend organised by "Emerald Bank" on 7 September. The Victorian Minister for Aviation, Gordon Rich-Phillips will be attending and all visitors are welcome. The Unicom is 118.8 and the FIA is 122.4.
Kaz
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I was lower than 5000 most of the way over because of headwinds but coming home across SA I did a lot at 7500 where I caught some good tailwinds and I gave the FIA a heads-up as I climbed.
I didn't call as I crossed boundaries because the only and infrequent traffic was much higher than me and I could see the regular interrogation of my transponder showed ATC knew I was there. But I listened the whole time. I gave an inbound on the FIA frequency at PAG because an RFDS aircraft called 30 NM out but he was on the ground before I got there. I think I was descending through 5500 about 15 NM out then.
Departing WMC. I couldn't make contact until above 7500 and even then had difficulty filing my SARTIME by radio (no mobile coverage). Velocity someone or other very kindly helped out along with another high flyer whose call sign I didn't catch.
I was very impressed with the RPT and scenic helicopter drivers at AYE...lots of courtesy and lots of checking in/notifying positions and altitudes.
Are you coming to Shepp?
Kaz
I didn't call as I crossed boundaries because the only and infrequent traffic was much higher than me and I could see the regular interrogation of my transponder showed ATC knew I was there. But I listened the whole time. I gave an inbound on the FIA frequency at PAG because an RFDS aircraft called 30 NM out but he was on the ground before I got there. I think I was descending through 5500 about 15 NM out then.
Departing WMC. I couldn't make contact until above 7500 and even then had difficulty filing my SARTIME by radio (no mobile coverage). Velocity someone or other very kindly helped out along with another high flyer whose call sign I didn't catch.
I was very impressed with the RPT and scenic helicopter drivers at AYE...lots of courtesy and lots of checking in/notifying positions and altitudes.
Are you coming to Shepp?
Kaz
Did you give a call on the area frequency as you climbed above 5000 each time ? If not why not?
For those of us who don’t have access to that rulebook and don’t understand how the system is meant to work, Dick, should we be broadcasting on area when climbing through 5,000’?
I strictly monitored the "area" frequency spending some of the time looking down at the charts to work out the correct frequency rather than looking out for other aircraft.
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There is no rule requiring a call to ATC in the FIA frequency when climbing VFR through 5000 of which I am aware.
But there is a requirement to monitor the FIA frequency above 5000 (with exceptions for gliders and for non-radio aircraft operating under stress of weather).
I recall it always used to be considered appropriate to choose a quiet moment to call them and let them know what you were up to if above 5000 and most still seem to appreciate it.
Clearly, it is simply not possible at some locations where coverage is not so good and you have to be considerably higher to communicate. In those areas it gives me a lot of reassurance to be at that higher level and to let them know what I'm doing.
Kaz
But there is a requirement to monitor the FIA frequency above 5000 (with exceptions for gliders and for non-radio aircraft operating under stress of weather).
I recall it always used to be considered appropriate to choose a quiet moment to call them and let them know what you were up to if above 5000 and most still seem to appreciate it.
Clearly, it is simply not possible at some locations where coverage is not so good and you have to be considerably higher to communicate. In those areas it gives me a lot of reassurance to be at that higher level and to let them know what I'm doing.
Kaz
Yes call ATC by all means and if you are on radar they have a responsibility to give you a traffic service .
If you have a mid air your family will probably able to sue AsA
Not so in the USA or Canada- they look after their ATCs - no frequency boundaries are shown on charts .
You can get flight following but that's at the ATCs discretion and the second it's over they tell you to move off the frequency - very professional system
If you have a mid air your family will probably able to sue AsA
Not so in the USA or Canada- they look after their ATCs - no frequency boundaries are shown on charts .
You can get flight following but that's at the ATCs discretion and the second it's over they tell you to move off the frequency - very professional system
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Jack Ranga kaz3g, are you heading down to Lethbridge for the opening on Sunday by any chance?
Kaz
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Gordon Rich Phillips will be there too, I really don't like politicians but this bloke is doing well. Official airport opening, a couple of hundred Harley's are expected, a prostate cancer fundraiser, Lethbridge will be busier than.........well, busy!
Creampuff. I am amazed at just how deficient you are on knowledge of the FAA
NAS airspace system which is current Australian Government policy.
Yes there are charts in the NAS- however there is no such thing as an en- route frequency for VFR to monitor so they can make announcements on ATC frequencies . This means US pilots are not obsessed with looking at charts in an attempt to be on the "correct" frequency. They remain vigilant with their eyes outside as much as they can.
With our multiple colour lines and different frequencies in many places depending on what altitude the aircraft is flying I bet many pilots are often on the incorrect frequency.
That's probably why VFR aircraft pilots do not reply a lot of the times when called by ATC in radar airspace.
I think the people at CASA are attempting to turn the en route un controlled airspace back to a "radio arranged separation" airspace that we had pre 1990s
It won't work but at least Bloggs will be pleased!
NAS airspace system which is current Australian Government policy.
Yes there are charts in the NAS- however there is no such thing as an en- route frequency for VFR to monitor so they can make announcements on ATC frequencies . This means US pilots are not obsessed with looking at charts in an attempt to be on the "correct" frequency. They remain vigilant with their eyes outside as much as they can.
With our multiple colour lines and different frequencies in many places depending on what altitude the aircraft is flying I bet many pilots are often on the incorrect frequency.
That's probably why VFR aircraft pilots do not reply a lot of the times when called by ATC in radar airspace.
I think the people at CASA are attempting to turn the en route un controlled airspace back to a "radio arranged separation" airspace that we had pre 1990s
It won't work but at least Bloggs will be pleased!
"Australian government policy" doesn't mean squat if the rules say something different. Remember: Governments leave all this airspace and procedures trivia for the "experts" to run.
But in any event, just tell everyone what your rule book says, and everyone can choose to comply with your rule book. Simple.
If you want to advise all VFR pilots not to monitor area frequency and not to make broadcasts on area when operating into or out of a strip that's not on any aeronautical charts, just grow a pair and give them that advice.
But in any event, just tell everyone what your rule book says, and everyone can choose to comply with your rule book. Simple.
If you want to advise all VFR pilots not to monitor area frequency and not to make broadcasts on area when operating into or out of a strip that's not on any aeronautical charts, just grow a pair and give them that advice.
It won't work but at least Bloggs will be pleased!
