Multicom vs area frequency
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"I do realise there were ALAs. All of the ones that VH-registered aircraft were allowed to operate in and out of were marked on charts."
Creampuff, that statement is simply wrong!
ALAs were any area that met ALA size requirements. The ones marked on charts were merely well known ones.
Since you are such a scholar regarding regs perhaps you can back up that statement.
Apparently you ARE confused!
Creampuff, that statement is simply wrong!
ALAs were any area that met ALA size requirements. The ones marked on charts were merely well known ones.
Since you are such a scholar regarding regs perhaps you can back up that statement.
Apparently you ARE confused!
Jack Ranga wrote: "Nup, he's a lawyer, nuf said."
Goodness! I've been flying with Creampuff for the best part of thirty years and know him to be a rather competent chappie. It's true that he does have a particular interest in Australian aviation law. (He holds an LLB with First Class Honours from ANU). But as with all of us, he's human and does make the occasional mistake.
That said, I'm prepared to take my chances following his legal counsel far beyond that of Tankengine, Aussie Bob, Jack Ranga or Dick Smith.
Goodness! I've been flying with Creampuff for the best part of thirty years and know him to be a rather competent chappie. It's true that he does have a particular interest in Australian aviation law. (He holds an LLB with First Class Honours from ANU). But as with all of us, he's human and does make the occasional mistake.
That said, I'm prepared to take my chances following his legal counsel far beyond that of Tankengine, Aussie Bob, Jack Ranga or Dick Smith.
I will try a different approach.
When you were taxiing for take off at Farmer Brown's farm in the mid-eighties, on what frequency did you broadcast?
When you were taxiing for take off at a licenced aerodrome in the mid-eighties, on what frequency did you broadcast?
When you were taxiing for take off at Farmer Brown's farm in the mid-eighties, on what frequency did you broadcast?
When you were taxiing for take off at a licenced aerodrome in the mid-eighties, on what frequency did you broadcast?
Creamy. You gave your calls on the FS frequency. There were no CTAFs in those days in Australia .
Now that ATC separates aircraft on some of these "area" frequencies there are real problems if pilots make announcements .
Now that ATC separates aircraft on some of these "area" frequencies there are real problems if pilots make announcements .
You gave your calls on the FS frequency. There were no CTAFs in those days in Australia .
In the mid-eighties, you broadcast on the equivalent of what is now the area frequency at both Farmer Brown’s paddock and the licensed aerodrome.
Then what happened, frequency-wise, at the licensed aerodromes?
I’m merely trying to explain the prevailing confusion about the ‘correct’ frequency on which to broadcast when in the vicinity of an ‘aerodrome’.
As I say, it may just be me that’s confused.
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Yes, everywhere is an aerodrome.
Therefore, below a few thousand AGLs you're always in the vicinity of an infinite number of aerodromes.
Therefore, below a few thousand AGLs you're always in the vicinity of an infinite number of aerodromes.
The definition again from AIP:
Aerodrome: A defined area of land or water (including any buildings, installations and equipment) intended to be used either wholly or in part for the arrival, departure and movement of aircraft.
(my bold)
By your definition the whole of Australia wouldn't be an infinite number of aerodromes, it would be one giant aerodrome - because the area of land you have defined is "Australia".
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Gerry - "legal counsel"
You do realise that in court cases around 50% of lawyers lose!
I actually agree with a lot of what Creampuff is saying re frequencies.
On the subject of ALAs, old and new he is wrong in what he wrote. (Coming from a professional pilot of over 30 years, GA then Airline, with plenty of Sport Aviation as well)
(Regardless whether you have known him for 30 years and whether he is a good pilot, bloke or whatever)
Dick is on the right track with his comments about Control frequencies. In my professional employment I must say it is distracting to hear low level calls from a huge area, thanks to re-transmission, on high altitude frequencies. 126.7 would, in my opinion, be a better place for circuit calls.
You do realise that in court cases around 50% of lawyers lose!
I actually agree with a lot of what Creampuff is saying re frequencies.
On the subject of ALAs, old and new he is wrong in what he wrote. (Coming from a professional pilot of over 30 years, GA then Airline, with plenty of Sport Aviation as well)
(Regardless whether you have known him for 30 years and whether he is a good pilot, bloke or whatever)
Dick is on the right track with his comments about Control frequencies. In my professional employment I must say it is distracting to hear low level calls from a huge area, thanks to re-transmission, on high altitude frequencies. 126.7 would, in my opinion, be a better place for circuit calls.
andrewr: The definition of aerodrome in AIP is not the definition for the purposes of the aviation law.
Tank: In court cases 100% of lawyers win. Always.
But all of this doesn't help to sort out my confusion.
In the mid-eighties, you broadcast on the equivalent of what is now the area frequency at both Farmer Brown’s paddock and the licensed aerodrome.
Then what happened, frequency-wise, at the licensed aerodromes?
You claim to have been around for a while Tank. Walk us through the broadcast rule changes that happened with the demise of the AFIZ’s and the introduction of CTAFs and MBZs and CTAF(R)s and the removal of area frequencies from the charts and the introduction of Dick’s biscuits to the charts and the demise of Dick’s biscuits and CTAF(R)s and the reinstatement of area frequencies to the charts and the introduction of ‘non-towered aerodromes’ and ‘registered’ and ‘licensed’ aerodromes.
I’m sure the explanation you provide will demonstrate that the broadcast rules and frequencies at the places that were ALAs in the mid-eighties have always remained the same as the broadcast rules and frequencies at the places that were licensed aerodromes in the mid-eighties.
Or perhaps not.
Tank: In court cases 100% of lawyers win. Always.
But all of this doesn't help to sort out my confusion.
In the mid-eighties, you broadcast on the equivalent of what is now the area frequency at both Farmer Brown’s paddock and the licensed aerodrome.
Then what happened, frequency-wise, at the licensed aerodromes?
You claim to have been around for a while Tank. Walk us through the broadcast rule changes that happened with the demise of the AFIZ’s and the introduction of CTAFs and MBZs and CTAF(R)s and the removal of area frequencies from the charts and the introduction of Dick’s biscuits to the charts and the demise of Dick’s biscuits and CTAF(R)s and the reinstatement of area frequencies to the charts and the introduction of ‘non-towered aerodromes’ and ‘registered’ and ‘licensed’ aerodromes.
I’m sure the explanation you provide will demonstrate that the broadcast rules and frequencies at the places that were ALAs in the mid-eighties have always remained the same as the broadcast rules and frequencies at the places that were licensed aerodromes in the mid-eighties.
Or perhaps not.
Last edited by Creampuff; 28th Aug 2014 at 04:49.
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The definition of aerodrome in AIP is not the definition for the purposes of the aviation law
You may be able to argue for a different definition, but I don't think you would be arguing a position of strength.
So where does the legal obligation to broadcast in the vicinity of aerodromes come from?
I could be confused, but I thought it was regulation 166C of the 1988 Civil Aviation Regulations, not AIP.
I could be confused, but I thought it was regulation 166C of the 1988 Civil Aviation Regulations, not AIP.
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. Dick is on the right track with his comments about Control frequencies. In my professional employment I must say it is distracting to hear low level calls from a huge area, thanks to re-transmission, on high altitude frequencies. 126.7 would, in my opinion, be a better place for circuit calls
If 126.7 is used for airfields that are not marked on published ASA charts, those flying in and out of them VFR will NOT be listening to area and will not be contactable by either Centre or all those other VFR pilots in the vicinity who have no idea of the airfield's presence. This would be dangerous and much more likely tp result in a tragedy.
The alternative is for ASA to require all such airfields to be notified and incorporated in the charts. Not terribly practical as is evident when you fly VFR across remote Australia.
Kaz
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[quote ]. Creampuff
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And perhaps the definition of "aerodrome" in the Civil Aviation Act 1988 is of some relevance.
[/quote]
Clearly the definition in the Act is the appropriate one and any other definition in an AIP or CAAP would be ultra vires.
Kaz
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And perhaps the definition of "aerodrome" in the Civil Aviation Act 1988 is of some relevance.
[/quote]
Clearly the definition in the Act is the appropriate one and any other definition in an AIP or CAAP would be ultra vires.
Kaz
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Jeez my heads spinning!!
Back when I learnt to fly there were no radios.
An aerodrome was any convenient paddock or beach.
Even when you decided to mix it with the big boys a nice man in the tower flashed some coloured...(oops! sorry shouldn't have said that!)..err different intensity lights at you..and down you went!
Is this stuff really rocket science??
Aviate, communicate...etc
I dunno its all getting so prescriptive..funs all gone out of it!!
FFKn lawyers!!..Creamie excepted of course.
Back when I learnt to fly there were no radios.
An aerodrome was any convenient paddock or beach.
Even when you decided to mix it with the big boys a nice man in the tower flashed some coloured...(oops! sorry shouldn't have said that!)..err different intensity lights at you..and down you went!
Is this stuff really rocket science??
Aviate, communicate...etc
I dunno its all getting so prescriptive..funs all gone out of it!!
FFKn lawyers!!..Creamie excepted of course.
Originally Posted by Kaz
If 126.7 is used for airfields that are not marked on published ASA charts, those flying in and out of them VFR will NOT be listening to area and will not be contactable by either Centre or all those other VFR pilots in the vicinity who have no idea of the airfield's presence. This would be dangerous and much more likely tp result in a tragedy.
There are many Broadcast Areas (Mega CTAFs) where the frequency split at 5000ft occurs, and arguably, the same thing happens at normal CTAFs today: broadcast on the CTAF before you "enter" and broadcast on the Area during departure before getting too far away from the airport.
