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CASA Vs Dalby LAME shop

Old 6th Nov 2013, 21:01
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CASA Vs Dalby LAME shop

I hope this is not what I think it is.

Check your battery chargers everyone.

GB Shaw & Co Pty Ltd trading as Dalby Air Maintenance and Civil Aviation Safety Authority [2013] AATA 736 (11 October 2013)

What amazes me is this has not been all over PPRuNe already, I had it emailed to me by a friend in the USA. I would love to see the fireworks if they tried to shut down his maintenance shop That would change the landscape of aviation law in oz!

I wonder where the P51 mustang is going to go now. Ed Field had it right, Flinders Aviation just went postal on them, so it seems that you need one or the other approach.

Anyway......over to you folks.
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 21:22
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I am not sure what the problem might be - it certainly reads to me as if the Maintenance Shop went to Geraldton to do maintenance on an aircraft they knew was grounded by CASA, and did not submit the paperwork to CASA in an attempt to protect the owner or pilot of ZOE.

If that is the case - when he was already under a cloud - what did he think would happen?

In every dealing I have had with CASA they are surprisingly tolerant of well-meaning disorganisation and the odd stuff-up. The moment they smell a cover-up, everything suddenly becomes most unpleasant.

I still reckon if CASA had pulled Hempel's AOC and PPL prior to the prang there would have been people on here screaming blue murder and saying he was wronged
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 22:07
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Hempel's AOC
The Yak was not and could never be on the AOC.
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 23:21
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In every dealing I have had with CASA they are surprisingly tolerant of well-meaning disorganisation and the odd stuff-up.
That has NOT been my experience!

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Old 6th Nov 2013, 23:35
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Have to agree with Horatio there.
If we cock something up by accident, they are more than helpful...believe it or not!!
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Old 6th Nov 2013, 23:49
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Over the years I've had contact with CASA twice.

My experience was that if you made a mistake, and showed it was unlikely to be repeated, they were friendly and more interested in safety than being vindictive.
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 00:09
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I've had two main dealings with them that could have gone either way....

First one I was "counselled" for something that was absolutely not my fault in any way, but they saw fit to read me the riot act and make me feel bad. That one is probably still on my permanent record.

The second instance restored my faith in human kindness when the CASA employee went above and beyond to assist with some quite complicated paperwork that they normally wouldn't bother with and if they did, it would have cost hundreds if not a thousand. He had no reason to provide this level of service, but chose to, so cheers to him.

If I had wilfully gone out of my way to deceive them... I'd hate to be on the receiving end
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 01:50
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I wonder where the P51 mustang is going to go now.
Done remotely by Cameron Rolph-Smith at CAB recently...
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 04:16
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TBM, that is good news, I just had not seen it lately, and wondered why.

As for the Casa V Dalby thing, I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place.

They should be there to educate not take to court. It should never get that way. Some of the alleged problem was that they asks for things to be fixed and 3 months later nothing had been done. I know for sure that the LAME who used to work on the Mustang went to Dalby to do nothing but satisfy CASA's demans for paperwork and process. Not to touch a spanner.

The logical conclussion is that he did absolutely nothing. Sat there for months and months doing nothing. I just can't believe that.

If the place was a basket case,and maybe it was, how on earth did CASA let it get that way, and what things, constructive educational things did they do to avoid this problem?

If they did go there to educate and straighten them out, how on earth could CASA have failed.....a second time.

If that is the case then Dalby Maintenance or whatever they are called should have been shut down simultaneously with the department doing the oversight. They both clearly need to be axed then.

I just can't accept that a basket case organisation can be let get that far out of line, or in the case of Transair/Hempels etc or others get to an accident without CASA doing anything to correct the process by education. If that fails it is because both groups failed. No LAME goes to work in the morning wanting to do a sloppy job.

For those of you who have cited excellent co-operative and helpful folk at CASA, great, glad to hear it. I too have plenty of stories to tell of good folk doing good things. But these kind of matters are not doing the good workers any favours. I have to work with many at CASA in a few areas. Most are pretty good. I am sure they hate being let down just as much as industry does.

I have to wonder what is going on. Its a cultural problem. Many of you know what happened with Flinders Aviation. If I was the minister now and saw that along with the Archerfield debacle......there would be some huge cost savings by Christmas.

It is not good enough. The industry deserves better, and I am not saying that LAME's dont need a good dos of surveillance, but it has to be done the right way if you want the right outcomes. Clearly they are not doing it right. They seem to approach it with the attitude of they are just criminals we have not caught yet.
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 06:33
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But isn't the same CASA "gent" also responsible for the drubbing that Sandora got, which definitely contributed to their decision to close down?
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 11:34
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I have no idea.

But if it is the same one who copped a pasting at YRED....then I reckon he has moved to softer targets.

If that is the case, CASA and Libby need to think twice about their actions, or non-actions.

I am not across the matter very well, but I smell a rat. I am too busy doing pro-active things for GA at the moment to get tangled up in this, but I sure hope that if my suspicions are even 5% accurate that someone does something.

If they were seriously outright dodgey and dangerous, fair enough close them down. but at the same time sack....yes SACK without any entitlements ALL the folk responsible for them being that way retrospectively as far back as you can trace.

The problem is not just with the workshop. CASA need to wake up and realise this is the fact of life they run and hide from. Bad workshops or operators are more their fault than anyone else's. Just the same as badly behaved children are a product of their poor parenting. Without exception.

D9.....ask a LAME/ engine guy we both know about this topic I bet he knows far more than I do about the situation.
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 15:34
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jaba


TBM, that is good news, I just had not seen it lately, and wondered why.

As for the Casa V Dalby thing, I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place.

They should be there to educate not take to court. It should never get that way. Some of the alleged problem was that they asks for things to be fixed and 3 months later nothing had been done. I know for sure that the LAME who used to work on the Mustang went to Dalby to do nothing but satisfy CASA's demans for paperwork and process. Not to touch a spanner.

The logical conclussion is that he did absolutely nothing. Sat there for months and months doing nothing. I just can't believe that.

If the place was a basket case,and maybe it was, how on earth did CASA let it get that way, and what things, constructive educational things did they do to avoid this problem?

If they did go there to educate and straighten them out, how on earth could CASA have failed.....a second time.

If that is the case then Dalby Maintenance or whatever they are called should have been shut down simultaneously with the department doing the oversight. They both clearly need to be axed then.

I just can't accept that a basket case organisation can be let get that far out of line, or in the case of Transair/Hempels etc or others get to an accident without CASA doing anything to correct the process by education. If that fails it is because both groups failed. No LAME goes to work in the morning wanting to do a sloppy job.

For those of you who have cited excellent co-operative and helpful folk at CASA, great, glad to hear it. I too have plenty of stories to tell of good folk doing good things. But these kind of matters are not doing the good workers any favours. I have to work with many at CASA in a few areas. Most are pretty good. I am sure they hate being let down just as much as industry does.

I have to wonder what is going on. Its a cultural problem. Many of you know what happened with Flinders Aviation. If I was the minister now and saw that along with the Archerfield debacle......there would be some huge cost savings by Christmas.

It is not good enough. The industry deserves better, and I am not saying that LAME's dont need a good dos of surveillance, but it has to be done the right way if you want the right outcomes. Clearly they are not doing it right. They seem to approach it with the attitude of they are just criminals we have not caught yet.
I agree, remember there are 26 recommendations from the senate inquiry. Senator Xenophon wasn't kind in his supplemental section.

Senate report will shape safety investigation future | Pro Aviation
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 21:28
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I agree, remember there are 26 recommendations from the senate inquiry. Senator Xenophon wasn't kind in his supplemental section.
Agreed, but it is not me who needs to remember......I wonder if those who should will?
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 22:50
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Meanwhile in the UK:
UK government to slash red tape for GA sector
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 23:05
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I maintain that for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's on a company that the Casa rep has not been doing his job in the first place. Every NCR is a slight on the FOI not performing in the first place.
Jaba mate that just doesn't wash. You would be the first person to decry the nanny state yet that is exactly what you are asking for.

For years we have been crying out for less prescriptive regulations, yet you seem here to expect the AWI to micro-manage every shop in his jurisdiction.

You write a procedures manual describing your procedures and systems which CASA approves (...or doesn't). If you do not manage things in the way your manual describes it, CASA will pay attention. If you deliberately deviate from your published procedures, and a breach is detected as a result... what do you expect?

Bloke I know who has about $8bn under management said in an interview "I always want to do the right thing, not just do what I can get away with". In that statement he has encapsulated all that is wrong with GA (and all that could be improved).
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Old 7th Nov 2013, 23:12
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for any FOI to have sufficient handfuls of NCR's
........hate to be picky, but it would have been an AWI, not an FOI. If FOI's start doing surveillance on CoA holders we are all in trouble.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 06:48
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The team is CMT4. This is the team responsible for the trouble at Redcliffe, Caboolture, Bunderberg, Longreach, Dalby, Southport and Archerfield. I know the audit conducted on Dalby before CMT4 in 2011 was carried out by two of the most senior AWI's from BNE in 2009 and only received 3 RCA's and 4 AO's. No NCN's. So in two years they supposedly went from this to being so non compliant they had to be rubbed out. That just does not add up especially considering they had the full support of the old casa QLD airworthiness manager, well respected aeronautical engineers and AMROBA. I know the boy's at Dalby and their new chief engineer from Caboolture if anybody would like specifics. They maintained my aircraft for as long as they have been there and it has been a great service. Aviation safety has been dealt a massive blow by the loss of these engineers who will in all likelihood join the gas and oil industries. I hope the new inquiry into CASA by Truss will knock this over zealous behaviour on the head.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 10:13
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If you actually read the AAT decision it was pretty clear. Hack reached the same decision twice, just found it easier and quicker and in the best interests of safety to write about the breach of stay conditions rather than spend months writing out all the rest. Hack didn't hold back in his description of what went on or of his opinion on the main perp, but of course that supposed saint couldn't be responsible for his own actions could he, must be CASA forcing him to break the law, again.

And by the way DAM182 ( dalby air maintenance perhaps?), there is no difference between an RCA and an NCN, just a different name.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 10:16
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CHIMBU.....you are correct....too tired and not thinking about the correct acronym.

You are correct on the second point too.

Leafie.......I want education, not criminalisation. Not sure how better to simplify it.
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Old 8th Nov 2013, 11:21
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Jaba, I am sure everyone in this industry would prefer education over anything else, including criminalization. Unfortunately, this industry is no different to any other, there are those who think they can break the rules and in doing so demean the rest of the industry. They will always cry foul when caught and will always seek support from those who don't really understand the regulations being broken (their customers usually). They will also demand answers in public from those who by law cannot respond, knowing it will help them in the public arena.

Those people will not accept education and will do anything in their power to discredit anyone who suggests they are at fault. It is not unusual that they have prior criminal convictions but will seek to hide or diminish them.
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