Newbie & Flying Training Advice (Merged)
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: Melrose
Lots of good advice on here. Get a career first and then think about flying. I went to Uni and did a degree in engineering. I applied to join the Air Squadron at Uni, but didn't get in - too many applicants. I had passed all the tests, so was given a chit, that had I done National Service, I would have been sent to the Air Force to learn to fly. Didn't happen. I got a First Class Honours Degree and was employed by Rolls-Royce as an aircraft engine designer on military projects. Guess what? This employment made me exempt from NS. Eventually I took up gliding,as this was the easiest way to learn to fly, and became a cross country pilot and an instructor . Retired when I got bored with it, having done 2200 sorties and 1000+hrs, every hour hands on the stick. I didn't miss flying a bit, and had other hobbies to pursue. Just for fun, after a thirty year gap, I went and had a week flying at our local gliding club. Three trips and I was back solo. Flying is like roller skating - you never forget how to do it. Flying is a great hobby, but I'm certain that for me it would not have been a satisfying career. You only live once, this is not a rehearsal!
Last edited by Olympia463; 3rd April 2020 at 13:33.
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Cranbourne, Melbourne
thank you. money is not the thing in my mind. ive had the aviation bug since a very young age and love the feeling of being off the ground and taking people to places. just i am worried what to do in the future and i know to study hard but i dont want to graduate from high school not knowing what to do. i am currently doing my RPL in my local flying school. i am looking at doing a university course which is AB initio but has a VET student loan which is very nice. or i would like to try the cadetship because being in an airliner has always been my goal and not GA. im just looking in pathway advice because i know one day i would have to face the reality and i understand the industry is tough. thanks a lot for the advice.
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
From: Currently: A landlocked country with high terrain, otherwise Melbourne, Australia + Washington D.C.
thank you. money is not the thing in my mind. ive had the aviation bug since a very young age and love the feeling of being off the ground and taking people to places. just i am worried what to do in the future and i know to study hard but i dont want to graduate from high school not knowing what to do. i am currently doing my RPL in my local flying school. i am looking at doing a university course which is AB initio but has a VET student loan which is very nice. or i would like to try the cadetship because being in an airliner has always been my goal and not GA. im just looking in pathway advice because i know one day i would have to face the reality and i understand the industry is tough. thanks a lot for the advice.
There's no book called wisdom, everyone's different.
You will almost always be rewarded for taking risks and trying new things out. Even if you aim for A and miss, it'll be the things that you learned and that you never suspected in the first place that will be the main takeaway. And looking back, it won't be the things that you tried that you'll regret but the things that you did not. Over time, that will come back to haunt you and it'll bite you hard.
Connecting dots looking ahead is almost always a fallacious exercise. It'll only give you a fake sense of security that will do you no justice in the long run.
My advice: slack when you must but never become too complacent, keep an open mind, accept that you will change and will not be same the bloke you are today in 5, 10 or 15 years, stay smart, strive for curiosity, take risks, think big. When luck eventually hits, and it will, you'll be ready.
This video by Casey Neistat is a perfect example of that mindset:
Last edited by Okihara; 4th April 2020 at 03:24.
Joined: Aug 2019
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Cranbourne, Melbourne
The cadets had fun, have enthusiasm, and made friends too mate.
For our young friend in year 9, whatever path you eventually do choose will have to be made at the time. You won’t be out of HS until 2024. Even assuming you go straight into flight training it could be until 2026/7 until you graduate. After doing a uni degree perhaps it’ll be closer until the end of the decade. The world will be a very different place. Some companies that exist now won’t in 10 years time. Pathways, careers will be all different. But it’s so far off for you I wouldn’t bother worrying about it now.
We has a GFC in 2008/9 but we recovered in a few years. This shock will probably go on for longer. But it will end. Don’t forget the “roaring twenties” followed the 1918 flu. The current shock will probably be at least in a recovery by the time you have left high school, and there’s the baby boomer demographic retiring in the next 5 years as well. Keep the dream alive but don’t worry about career prospects for a while mate.
For our young friend in year 9, whatever path you eventually do choose will have to be made at the time. You won’t be out of HS until 2024. Even assuming you go straight into flight training it could be until 2026/7 until you graduate. After doing a uni degree perhaps it’ll be closer until the end of the decade. The world will be a very different place. Some companies that exist now won’t in 10 years time. Pathways, careers will be all different. But it’s so far off for you I wouldn’t bother worrying about it now.
We has a GFC in 2008/9 but we recovered in a few years. This shock will probably go on for longer. But it will end. Don’t forget the “roaring twenties” followed the 1918 flu. The current shock will probably be at least in a recovery by the time you have left high school, and there’s the baby boomer demographic retiring in the next 5 years as well. Keep the dream alive but don’t worry about career prospects for a while mate.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 497
Likes: 2
From: In the doghouse
Go enjoy life for a bit first - see what you like to do outside of aviation and do that. If you can make a living from it even better. Fly in your spare time for a few years.
Plenty of pilots out there who haven’t got a single life/work experience outside of aviation and it’s like conversing with a couch.
If you do ever decide to make aviation your only form of employment you’ll have other skills that will be invaluable to employers.
And finally - enjoy what you’re doing at the time and don’t be in a rush to the ‘top’ - if money is all you’re after then fill your boots, but lifestyle is pretty important to me and I’ve been patient and now have the best of both worlds (natural disasters are more than a little spanner in the works but we will get through in time)
Good luck.
Plenty of pilots out there who haven’t got a single life/work experience outside of aviation and it’s like conversing with a couch.
If you do ever decide to make aviation your only form of employment you’ll have other skills that will be invaluable to employers.
And finally - enjoy what you’re doing at the time and don’t be in a rush to the ‘top’ - if money is all you’re after then fill your boots, but lifestyle is pretty important to me and I’ve been patient and now have the best of both worlds (natural disasters are more than a little spanner in the works but we will get through in time)
Good luck.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 472
Likes: 13
From: SAUDI
Mega, lots of good advice but “everyone pay’s the piper”. No job is perfect. There are drawbacks everywhere. Aviation desire is like those rose tinted glasses. From that perfect place you holidayed and decided to move there only to find it was no longer perfect as work interfered with what was the holiday. Had a applicant many years ago who after a few flights chucked it in stating “I fly for fun not work” (and no, not a floater a very much focused individual given his history).
Also very much I guess (as with all of us) at your age you cannot wait to have a job, do what you want, only to realise when you get there, taxes, rent utilities, groceries, rego, fuel, clothes etc takes away the fun of a pay cheque with which you where going to have a huge time. The point? When you become that Captain on “biggus dickus” airlines you may realise that the purity of flying that bug smasher which requires hands on all the time is real flying. The military is great as you get trained to a high standard quickly, fly some awesome kit, and in general are surrounded by likeminded people (yes likeminded people in the commercial sector but how often do you work with the same people etc). But there is also a lot of guff you have to put up with (like any job) and although you have input in your career path you don’t make the decisions. I see you are In Melbourne. Suggest you check out East Sale, even apply as it cost nothing to put your toe in the waters and you are under no obligations.
Although the story of from C152 to the Space shuttle is very true it is also what life is about for those ambitious people. The next step on the ladder. But with each step comes a higher altitude which also brings more responsibilities and demands which in turn detracts from the purity of the initial desire.
Enough waxing and waning philosophically. Best advice I can give is if you want to do something do it, BUT have a realistic view of what it entails. Don’t just talk to one person, talk to as many as you can.
Best of luck.
.
Also very much I guess (as with all of us) at your age you cannot wait to have a job, do what you want, only to realise when you get there, taxes, rent utilities, groceries, rego, fuel, clothes etc takes away the fun of a pay cheque with which you where going to have a huge time. The point? When you become that Captain on “biggus dickus” airlines you may realise that the purity of flying that bug smasher which requires hands on all the time is real flying. The military is great as you get trained to a high standard quickly, fly some awesome kit, and in general are surrounded by likeminded people (yes likeminded people in the commercial sector but how often do you work with the same people etc). But there is also a lot of guff you have to put up with (like any job) and although you have input in your career path you don’t make the decisions. I see you are In Melbourne. Suggest you check out East Sale, even apply as it cost nothing to put your toe in the waters and you are under no obligations.
Although the story of from C152 to the Space shuttle is very true it is also what life is about for those ambitious people. The next step on the ladder. But with each step comes a higher altitude which also brings more responsibilities and demands which in turn detracts from the purity of the initial desire.
Enough waxing and waning philosophically. Best advice I can give is if you want to do something do it, BUT have a realistic view of what it entails. Don’t just talk to one person, talk to as many as you can.
Best of luck.
.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
Airline flying as a career now has a limited shelf life.
Autonomous flight is coming to an airport near you. Not next year or even next decade, but certainly within the working life of today’s 20 year olds.
In my 50 plus year career, radio operators were already gone from western cockpits (though the Russians held on to them in the name of employment for all), then we saw the demise of the flight navigator, the flight engineer, and now development of some very clever drones.
If I was starting out now as a late teenager I doubt I would find IT attractive. Not smart enough! I would qualify in a ‘dirty’ trade or unattractive profession, because that guarantees employment in hard times. People will always need to !!!!, so will always need a plumber; always have toothaches, so will always need dentists. Or combine dirty with attractive and qualify in divorce or criminal defence law - both always in demand. Pilots could be your main customers for the former, operators for the latter.
Then, if still suffering the aviation bug, become expert on drone operations and finally learn to fly conventional aircraft. I would regard flying as an expensive hobby with some limited career potential.
Niche operations such as RFDS flying will persist for a long time to come. But competition for these jobs will be fierce now that there are so many experienced pilots on the market.
Autonomous flight is coming to an airport near you. Not next year or even next decade, but certainly within the working life of today’s 20 year olds.
In my 50 plus year career, radio operators were already gone from western cockpits (though the Russians held on to them in the name of employment for all), then we saw the demise of the flight navigator, the flight engineer, and now development of some very clever drones.
If I was starting out now as a late teenager I doubt I would find IT attractive. Not smart enough! I would qualify in a ‘dirty’ trade or unattractive profession, because that guarantees employment in hard times. People will always need to !!!!, so will always need a plumber; always have toothaches, so will always need dentists. Or combine dirty with attractive and qualify in divorce or criminal defence law - both always in demand. Pilots could be your main customers for the former, operators for the latter.
Then, if still suffering the aviation bug, become expert on drone operations and finally learn to fly conventional aircraft. I would regard flying as an expensive hobby with some limited career potential.
Niche operations such as RFDS flying will persist for a long time to come. But competition for these jobs will be fierce now that there are so many experienced pilots on the market.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 3rd April 2020 at 23:21.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 579
Likes: 36
From: Australia
Autonomous flight is coming to an airport near you.
Not anytime even remotely close. Not within this kid's professional lifetime. We are a long way off from even having a fully autonomous car. Maybe 30 years at least. When you see what happens when Boeing can't get a relatively simple system like MCAS right. - you are drawing a very long bow thinking we are nearing a point trusting operation of transport category aircraft
on complete autonomy.
People will always need to !!!!, so will always need a plumber; always have toothaches, so will always need dentists.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
There is plenty of debate elsewhere on Pprune about the future of autonomous flight. Perhaps I should modify 'autonomous' to 'remotely controlled from the ground' to acknowledge that somewhere in the chain a human will be involved - just not in the front of the machine itself. The failure of MCAS to breathe life into an outdated design, several mass murder-suicides committed by pilots and fairly regular crashes caused by pilot incompetence warrants rapid progress to remove the weakest link from the cockpit. Yeh, yeh, I know all about Sully and Al Haynes and many others who saved many lives by being there and acting with great skill. But it was to some extent yesterday's technology that put them in those situations..
https://www.redbull.com/au-en/thered...assenger-drone
These guys are today's Wright Brothers. Within 15 years of the first flight at Kittyhawk, Sperry had developed an autopilot; within 30, all-metal aircraft were in mass production, jets followed, then autoland, supersonic flight, space travel - all within 60 years. Who woulda thunk it back in 1903?
The OP would do well to research more technical papers, progress in the military etc to form a conclusion about long term pilot career potential than to rely on emotive opinions (including mine). As to be expected in Pprune, Luddites outnumber visionaries and tend to be more strident in their denial.
https://www.redbull.com/au-en/thered...assenger-drone
These guys are today's Wright Brothers. Within 15 years of the first flight at Kittyhawk, Sperry had developed an autopilot; within 30, all-metal aircraft were in mass production, jets followed, then autoland, supersonic flight, space travel - all within 60 years. Who woulda thunk it back in 1903?
The OP would do well to research more technical papers, progress in the military etc to form a conclusion about long term pilot career potential than to rely on emotive opinions (including mine). As to be expected in Pprune, Luddites outnumber visionaries and tend to be more strident in their denial.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 4th April 2020 at 04:10.
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 76
Likes: 23
From: somers
Hello, i am currently in year 9 and i hope to become like a lot of pilots here and my friends would like to be pilots too. I am currently working on my RPL but i am confused about what to do in the future. I have seen bad reviews on cadet ships but i can see that it could be a quick way to get in the airline if well done. and i have been seeing university courses that is AB initio. i am just looking for advice on how to approach working for an airline and if i should work on any other licenses after my RPL. I am very confused and i can see too many ways to approach this but not know which ones are the good ways. I have a passion for aviation and i hope to be living my childhood dream one day as so a lot of other teenagers like me. We are asking for any type of advice for us and if we could get help. I am sorry to the current pilots that are affected by COVID-19, i guess we cant do a lot about it other than staying strong and being together. thanks and have a good day.
After dropping out of high school in year 10 in mid 1960s I went on to have a 42 year aviation career, the last 15 in command of wide body jets, no one, including me, thought that would have been possible. Good luck
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: Perth
If you're in year 9 now, I reckon you're at the right time to make a career of it in aviation. Remember these down turns in the industry happens in cycles of 5 to 7 years. I dare say in 7 years time, when you're in your early 20's things will be a lot different with the industry back to as normal as it can be after the dust settles.
Joined: Jun 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,688
Likes: 1,269
From: Australia
Who pays for your flying training because you had better start saving now. It will cost you many thousands of $$$ unless you join the RAAF. Before you even consider being a pilot make sure you have another skill behind you - administrative or trade. Because for sure you may have to fall back on it to make a living if you lose your flying job in circumstances beyond your control. Chances are likely that will happen
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
He did and got answers from pilots.
If the OP researches through PPruNE and other sites he will find hundreds of similar answers and opinions from pilots all over the world.
In common:
If the OP researches through PPruNE and other sites he will find hundreds of similar answers and opinions from pilots all over the world.
In common:
- Today's pilots need an alternative non-aviation dependent skill to see them through likely periods of unemployment as a pilot
- If still at school, it is best to obtain that skill prior to commencing flying
- Best path financially (and for quality training) to become a pilot is the military - if you can make the cut and live with the return of service
- If you can't, next best is a cadetship underwritten by an airline which offers employment at the end of training
- Pay-to-fly is a mug's game, but if you have a tidy inheritance or indulgent parents, go for it and hope that the returns from a flying career justify the investment
- At selection time chances of flying job are directly influenced by supply and demand
- Supply and demand (disadvantaging pilots) changes literally overnight - recovery to favor pilots can take years
- Even in good times pilots are not united enough to obtain better terms and conditions - in bad times it is dog eat dog
- So-called 'legacy' airlines no longer guarantee a job for life
- The golden days when we got to actually make our own calculations, work the throttles and physically fly the aeroplane are all but gone - automation rules and Big Brother (flight data monitoring) has killed any pleasure we once took from 'spirited flying' (as was encouraged by an old instructor handbook I still treasure, irrelevant as it now is)
- If you really must get married, find yourself a 'keeper' (and you are not getting mine!) who will stick with you wherever in the world your career takes you, and through periods of low or no income
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 6th April 2020 at 00:17.
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 401
Likes: 18
From: Outback Australia
Mach E Avelli:
Respectfully, I disagree with your last two points.
One piece of advice that I was given and have taken to heart is: As often as possible, handfly from start up to TOC, and from TOD to shutdown. It will keep your skills sharp, your scan active, and will help you on the day that the autopilot gives up the ghost. The requirement for autopilot for these bits is an early indicator that scan and skills might be declining.
In my opinion, a relationship (doesn't have to be marriage) can be the best thing to keep you sane, solvent and sober. It can also be the most soul destroying thing ever. I do agree its probably cheaper to choose once and wisely, rather than one for every stage of your career.
Although, somebody once joked (?) to me that you are not a real pilot until you've had your first divorce. :-) :-)
Respectfully, I disagree with your last two points.
One piece of advice that I was given and have taken to heart is: As often as possible, handfly from start up to TOC, and from TOD to shutdown. It will keep your skills sharp, your scan active, and will help you on the day that the autopilot gives up the ghost. The requirement for autopilot for these bits is an early indicator that scan and skills might be declining.
In my opinion, a relationship (doesn't have to be marriage) can be the best thing to keep you sane, solvent and sober. It can also be the most soul destroying thing ever. I do agree its probably cheaper to choose once and wisely, rather than one for every stage of your career.
Although, somebody once joked (?) to me that you are not a real pilot until you've had your first divorce. :-) :-)
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
There's no disputing that we should hand fly as much as possible to maintain skills. The problem is that some operators actively discourage it, and operations may even prohibit it - e.g. SIDs, STARS, LNAV/VNAV approaches, Low Visibility approaches.
Chuck in a minimum number of autolands on long haul operations to keep certification going, and each pilot could be lucky to get two or three manual landings a month. And woe betide you if you ARE hand flying and exceed 0.25nm off track or 30 degrees bank angle or two knots on a speed limit - you will be in for tea and bickies with the boss, or in the case of some overseas carriers, dismissed without notice.
To their credit the FAA and manufacturers have re-thought the importance of hand flying, but mostly it is still left to simulator training to put the philosophy into practice.
The monitoring 'system' parameters are unforgiving of even quite minor transgressions on line operations, so pilots are reluctant to disconnect the automatics and play at being real (even if twice divorced) pilots.
Plenty of debate elsewhere on all this too. The points raised, as I said, are a common theme.
Chuck in a minimum number of autolands on long haul operations to keep certification going, and each pilot could be lucky to get two or three manual landings a month. And woe betide you if you ARE hand flying and exceed 0.25nm off track or 30 degrees bank angle or two knots on a speed limit - you will be in for tea and bickies with the boss, or in the case of some overseas carriers, dismissed without notice.
To their credit the FAA and manufacturers have re-thought the importance of hand flying, but mostly it is still left to simulator training to put the philosophy into practice.
The monitoring 'system' parameters are unforgiving of even quite minor transgressions on line operations, so pilots are reluctant to disconnect the automatics and play at being real (even if twice divorced) pilots.
Plenty of debate elsewhere on all this too. The points raised, as I said, are a common theme.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 7th April 2020 at 23:31. Reason: typo
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 793
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
Handflying is not in the long term plan of manufacturers and airlines to deskill the pilot job and fully automate the flight deck. They have a point, undeniably, safety has improved with automation.
Is slavishly following a flight director with A/T on really hand flying? Or merely being a meat powered autopilot?
Being old school, I used to like to hand fly, but I now concede it’s no longer an essential skill. You’d be surprised at how many people these days that can’t fly a decent, accurate visual circuit without the A/T. It used to worry me, but I now get the point of the “brave new world” of autonomous flight.
The (solo) airline pilot of the future, will start, taxi and chat to the tower. Line up, press a button and at TOC will go back to the crew rest area until TOD. The aircraft will land and he will taxi up to the gate and shut down. Every day, there are dozens of military UAVs plying the skies of the Middle East doing exactly this. Technology like this soon to be coming to an airliner near you.
The joy of actually poling around the skies will only be found in gliding, aerobatics and RA. i.e. stuff you have to pay to do.
Is slavishly following a flight director with A/T on really hand flying? Or merely being a meat powered autopilot?
Being old school, I used to like to hand fly, but I now concede it’s no longer an essential skill. You’d be surprised at how many people these days that can’t fly a decent, accurate visual circuit without the A/T. It used to worry me, but I now get the point of the “brave new world” of autonomous flight.
The (solo) airline pilot of the future, will start, taxi and chat to the tower. Line up, press a button and at TOC will go back to the crew rest area until TOD. The aircraft will land and he will taxi up to the gate and shut down. Every day, there are dozens of military UAVs plying the skies of the Middle East doing exactly this. Technology like this soon to be coming to an airliner near you.
The joy of actually poling around the skies will only be found in gliding, aerobatics and RA. i.e. stuff you have to pay to do.
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne
Handflying is not in the long term plan of manufacturers and airlines to deskill the pilot job and fully automate the flight deck. They have a point, undeniably, safety has improved with automation.
Is slavishly following a flight director with A/T on really hand flying? Or merely being a meat powered autopilot?
Being old school, I used to like to hand fly, but I now concede it’s no longer an essential skill. You’d be surprised at how many people these days that can’t fly a decent, accurate visual circuit without the A/T. It used to worry me, but I now get the point of the “brave new world” of autonomous flight.
The (solo) airline pilot of the future, will start, taxi and chat to the tower. Line up, press a button and at TOC will go back to the crew rest area until TOD. The aircraft will land and he will taxi up to the gate and shut down. Every day, there are dozens of military UAVs plying the skies of the Middle East doing exactly this. Technology like this soon to be coming to an airliner near you.
The joy of actually poling around the skies will only be found in gliding, aerobatics and RA. i.e. stuff you have to pay to do.
Is slavishly following a flight director with A/T on really hand flying? Or merely being a meat powered autopilot?
Being old school, I used to like to hand fly, but I now concede it’s no longer an essential skill. You’d be surprised at how many people these days that can’t fly a decent, accurate visual circuit without the A/T. It used to worry me, but I now get the point of the “brave new world” of autonomous flight.
The (solo) airline pilot of the future, will start, taxi and chat to the tower. Line up, press a button and at TOC will go back to the crew rest area until TOD. The aircraft will land and he will taxi up to the gate and shut down. Every day, there are dozens of military UAVs plying the skies of the Middle East doing exactly this. Technology like this soon to be coming to an airliner near you.
The joy of actually poling around the skies will only be found in gliding, aerobatics and RA. i.e. stuff you have to pay to do.
its a skill that's becoming redundant and with the way technology is progressing it probably won't be even needed at any stage.
some years ago when I was a coe'y on the 'bus' I wanted to do a full manually controlled landing, A/P off A/T off. Was a clear day low work load via an ILS, turned the 'help off half way down the slope and the Capt imeadiately sat bolt upright looking very tense and pale! Was the funniest thing to see!
Flyng is slowly becoming a ' skill-less trade'
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,574
Likes: 410
From: FNQ ... It's Permanent!
some years ago when I was a coe'y on the 'bus' I wanted to do a full manually controlled landing, A/P off A/T off. Was a clear day low work load via an ILS, turned the 'help off half way down the slope and the Capt imeadiately sat bolt upright looking very tense and pale! Was the funniest thing to see!
