Aircraft down in Canley Vale
I used to fly these "warbirds" and I am of the thinking that once the wheels and flaps are up then you do all that you were trained to do ie.
Mixture up pitch up power up gear up flap up, dead leg dead engine etc.
But this is obviously only going to buy you some time in these antiquated beasts. It sounds like he had enough time to at least confirm that the aircraft was trimmed and set up correctly for assy. flight and when he could see this was not working he went to plan B. It just so happened that plan B unfolded over suburbia and not a racetrack as the tower suggested.
I listened to the ATC transmission and my heart broke.
Mixture up pitch up power up gear up flap up, dead leg dead engine etc.
But this is obviously only going to buy you some time in these antiquated beasts. It sounds like he had enough time to at least confirm that the aircraft was trimmed and set up correctly for assy. flight and when he could see this was not working he went to plan B. It just so happened that plan B unfolded over suburbia and not a racetrack as the tower suggested.
I listened to the ATC transmission and my heart broke.
I just caught news update where they were discussing imposing a curfew on BK 7pm to 7am. Did this tragic incident have anything to do with night ops or are these aircraft noise protestors seizing on this incident to further their cause. If that's the case they should be ashamed.
This is an awful situation, but as a twin piston driver of an aircraft older than me, it does have me reevaluating my EFATO and in cruise procedures so that events like this won't happen to me. It's just sad to need reminders like these.
This is an awful situation, but as a twin piston driver of an aircraft older than me, it does have me reevaluating my EFATO and in cruise procedures so that events like this won't happen to me. It's just sad to need reminders like these.
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Re post #106
I too heard that call on 2GB, and another from a woman (but can't remember exactly where she was), who said she saw and heard the aircraft, one of the engines was 'spluttering' but then picked up and she thought 'thank goodness'
Agree the ATC tapes were heartbreaking. As another poster commented and I agree with her - 'seen too many young men go too soon over a lot of years'
Somewhere on the transcript Richmond was mentioned and ruled out due to fog.
Almost 30 years since working at BK, still makes me feel sick to the stomach, memories of hearing the air raid siren go and thinking, who is it, will they be ok.
Hoxton and Schofields are gone. BK looking more like a strip mall than an airport, governments won't be satisfied until there are blocks of units built between the runways.
The rot started with Whitlam and co in the 1970's, when DCA became DOT (Dept of Trucks) - overseen by a Minister who couldn't have grown a choko vine over an outside dunny.
The only good thing that Comrade Gough introduced was a 40% investment allowance so at least a few new aircraft appeared on charter and training lines.
Thoughts with the families and colleagues of those lost yesterday. :-(
'High Flight'
LB
I too heard that call on 2GB, and another from a woman (but can't remember exactly where she was), who said she saw and heard the aircraft, one of the engines was 'spluttering' but then picked up and she thought 'thank goodness'
Agree the ATC tapes were heartbreaking. As another poster commented and I agree with her - 'seen too many young men go too soon over a lot of years'
Somewhere on the transcript Richmond was mentioned and ruled out due to fog.
Almost 30 years since working at BK, still makes me feel sick to the stomach, memories of hearing the air raid siren go and thinking, who is it, will they be ok.
Hoxton and Schofields are gone. BK looking more like a strip mall than an airport, governments won't be satisfied until there are blocks of units built between the runways.
The rot started with Whitlam and co in the 1970's, when DCA became DOT (Dept of Trucks) - overseen by a Minister who couldn't have grown a choko vine over an outside dunny.
The only good thing that Comrade Gough introduced was a 40% investment allowance so at least a few new aircraft appeared on charter and training lines.
Thoughts with the families and colleagues of those lost yesterday. :-(
'High Flight'
LB
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The s/e performance figures are based om a NEW aircraft with NEW engines, NEW props, no flakey paint or leading edge dings, flown by a factory test pilot for certification purposes. In the real world.......forget 'em. at MAUW its usually all downhill at blue line. Plus TIO540's have had a crankshaft AD....for breakage, maybe this guy was faced with double engine failure????
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There is a time and a place for sitting on your hands (multi crew jet/turboprop ops) minor system failures in piston aeroplanes etc. This wasn't one of them. Press the nearest airfield function of your GPS, pick the closest and most suitable airfield and go there quickly! This was what I am implying if you read into my post.
7000' over the North of Richmond you would think on one engine it would make it. However when did the second one start malfunctioning? If it was not long after Richmond even in fog flying the ILS, staying runway aligned, closing the throttle and flaring even in low to no vis beats the crash of yesterday.
Capt.mofo seems to think otherwise but a small accident on a large runway beats the suburbs every day.
Wwould need to see the METAR's, a radar trace and the whole radio chat to comment any further.
When ever I read these threads I always ask.........what would I do if faced with this.
We can't bring them back but we can learn.
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"I just caught news update where they were discussing imposing a curfew on BK 7pm to 7am. Did this tragic incident have anything to do with night ops or are these aircraft noise protestors seizing on this incident to further their cause. If that's the case they should be ashamed."
I remember years ago when a modified 4wd ran over a young toddler out the front of Windsor McDonalds and was fatally injured. The media circus surrounding that ended up with modification laws being further restricted on offroad vehicles despite the fact that she could have been hit by a Mazda 121 and still been killed.
Unfortunately when people are very passionate about a particular cause they will grasp at any straw if they believe it will give them a result in their favour. The media doesnt help at all. This morning on 2ue, Steve Leibman (sp?) interviewed Dick Smith and all the questions directed to Dick had the best part of SFA to do with this particular accident. To Dicks credit I think he tried his hardest to get the right point accross but Steve just wailed on with a bunch of crap. I dont think Steve is an idiot or shock jock, more like an ill informed journo.
But lets not forget, 2 people are dead, and we all need to stop speculating on what has gone wrong, even if the ATSB, CASA and whatever other acronyms you can add to that list are incompetent at least they will have a report with hands on facts rather than a bunch of armchair experts on a 'rumour network' putting their 2 cents in. I barely have my GFPT so im in no position to comment on the scratchy details that are doing the rounds. The closest ive ever been to piloting a twin engine is sitting in the front toilet of an A320 taking a crap.
Ill wait for the accredited experts opinion first. May the world be a safer place for it.
I remember years ago when a modified 4wd ran over a young toddler out the front of Windsor McDonalds and was fatally injured. The media circus surrounding that ended up with modification laws being further restricted on offroad vehicles despite the fact that she could have been hit by a Mazda 121 and still been killed.
Unfortunately when people are very passionate about a particular cause they will grasp at any straw if they believe it will give them a result in their favour. The media doesnt help at all. This morning on 2ue, Steve Leibman (sp?) interviewed Dick Smith and all the questions directed to Dick had the best part of SFA to do with this particular accident. To Dicks credit I think he tried his hardest to get the right point accross but Steve just wailed on with a bunch of crap. I dont think Steve is an idiot or shock jock, more like an ill informed journo.
But lets not forget, 2 people are dead, and we all need to stop speculating on what has gone wrong, even if the ATSB, CASA and whatever other acronyms you can add to that list are incompetent at least they will have a report with hands on facts rather than a bunch of armchair experts on a 'rumour network' putting their 2 cents in. I barely have my GFPT so im in no position to comment on the scratchy details that are doing the rounds. The closest ive ever been to piloting a twin engine is sitting in the front toilet of an A320 taking a crap.
Ill wait for the accredited experts opinion first. May the world be a safer place for it.
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I just caught news update where they were discussing imposing a curfew on BK 7pm to 7am. Did this tragic incident have anything to do with night ops or are these aircraft noise protestors seizing on this incident to further their cause. If that's the case they should be ashamed.
Or perhaps as someone commented this arvo on 2GB, maybe they want to build airports on an island somewhere in Botany Bay and only fly over water.
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just listened to the recording, it's really heart breaking for me, even I don't know the pilot......just sad to see/hear a fellow in the industry get involved in trouble.
By the way, who's VH-WYS, just done a search on CASA it's a Robby 44, possible news reporter??
They were requesting to over fly the scene after the accident.
By the way, who's VH-WYS, just done a search on CASA it's a Robby 44, possible news reporter??
They were requesting to over fly the scene after the accident.
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Jaba,
I'd like to see how you flare an aircraft in no vis with no radar altimeter, an altimeter that can be out by 75ft on a QNH that can give you at least another 30ft variable. ILS is called a precision approach for a reason - you need precise control of your aircraft to fly one. In this sad occasion and from all reports the poor pilot did not have a controllable aircraft in the sense that would be required to fly an ILS. And last time I checked richmond was suburbia.
Any pilots goal in this situation would be no casulaties - I doubt your solution would provide that.
I havn't instructed in a while now but I am sure they still teach you how to glide into a field and not how to flare off an ILS in fog on 1 or no engines.
I'd like to see how you flare an aircraft in no vis with no radar altimeter, an altimeter that can be out by 75ft on a QNH that can give you at least another 30ft variable. ILS is called a precision approach for a reason - you need precise control of your aircraft to fly one. In this sad occasion and from all reports the poor pilot did not have a controllable aircraft in the sense that would be required to fly an ILS. And last time I checked richmond was suburbia.
Any pilots goal in this situation would be no casulaties - I doubt your solution would provide that.
I havn't instructed in a while now but I am sure they still teach you how to glide into a field and not how to flare off an ILS in fog on 1 or no engines.
One thing that got me though (if I get caught up in the same situation) was that even if RIC was in fog, would any of you guys consider ILS at RIC, knowing there's gonna be low vis upon arrival; with clouds being below the DA??
An ILS is easy to do one inop provided you can maintain altitude to begin with.
Nobody really knows the situation in this instance and we'll have to wait for the findings of the investigation but i would have been real tempted by that piece of pavement below me if i flew over KSRI
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Sure. If you 'do' see something at the end of the approach and as a last resort. But most of sydney basin had no visability issues. I'd take a field i can see or an airport i thought I could make that had no fog reported.
I can't think why anyone, flying a light GA twin with an engine shutdown (and not a CAT II airliner), would contemplate an ILS in fog when they can remain in VMC and descend to a nearby airport that is VMC.
Even IFR pilots like to see where they are going!
Even IFR pilots like to see where they are going!
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Fog shouldn't have been an issue...I was in the area half an hour or so earlier and no obvious visibility issues around YSRI that I could see.
20/20 hindsight makes Richmond look like the better plan - probably not such an easy assessment at the time, especially if multiple problems kept making the situation worse over the course of a few minutes.
My sympathies to all of those closely involved, a tragic waste.
20/20 hindsight makes Richmond look like the better plan - probably not such an easy assessment at the time, especially if multiple problems kept making the situation worse over the course of a few minutes.
My sympathies to all of those closely involved, a tragic waste.
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That depends on how bad you think the fog is compared to how good you thought your chances were at making the field with height to spare.
As it turns out a foggy ILS may have been a better option.
As for Capts' Mofo and Fathom, you no doubt have far greater experience than I do, but that does not mean that I do not have a valid option, and one that plenty of professional pilots would also elect to take.
Like those folk who had a dummy spit at the idea of descending below the minima on a GPS runway aligned (and with RAD ALT) at Norfolk .....well folks he did bust the minima in the end didn't he....and nobody remembers that.
All I say is you need to think about your options and not allways the textbook ones as they may not be the best option if a few small things go sour.
For me, fog at YAMB with an ILS or YBAF, hazy and at 8am lots of traffic on roads and houses and industrial area, or AMB with lots of paddocks and an ILS with a big runway and a chance of seeing it even if below the DA.
This is a side issue....why does a twin not make 20+ miles from 7000' with some power left?
Miraz...multiple problems making things worse....well if so and YSRI is close...go there cleared or not. If they only happened closer to YSBK, well that is bad luck in your faith of a twin, but that re-enforces the idea of nearest available...which would have been YSRI.
I am not for one minute stabbing this poor guy in the back after the event, so do not take offence, as Green Goblin and I both know of late what those close to the dead pilot feel, any of my posts here are about what would I do....and if that helps a discussion that may help me or some new youngster one day, all the better. Some good has to come from all the bad.
As it turns out a foggy ILS may have been a better option.
As for Capts' Mofo and Fathom, you no doubt have far greater experience than I do, but that does not mean that I do not have a valid option, and one that plenty of professional pilots would also elect to take.
Like those folk who had a dummy spit at the idea of descending below the minima on a GPS runway aligned (and with RAD ALT) at Norfolk .....well folks he did bust the minima in the end didn't he....and nobody remembers that.
All I say is you need to think about your options and not allways the textbook ones as they may not be the best option if a few small things go sour.
For me, fog at YAMB with an ILS or YBAF, hazy and at 8am lots of traffic on roads and houses and industrial area, or AMB with lots of paddocks and an ILS with a big runway and a chance of seeing it even if below the DA.
This is a side issue....why does a twin not make 20+ miles from 7000' with some power left?
Miraz...multiple problems making things worse....well if so and YSRI is close...go there cleared or not. If they only happened closer to YSBK, well that is bad luck in your faith of a twin, but that re-enforces the idea of nearest available...which would have been YSRI.
I am not for one minute stabbing this poor guy in the back after the event, so do not take offence, as Green Goblin and I both know of late what those close to the dead pilot feel, any of my posts here are about what would I do....and if that helps a discussion that may help me or some new youngster one day, all the better. Some good has to come from all the bad.
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Guys maybe he had intermittant problems and not major failure
Engine coughs a bit, comes good, decides to return, things pick up and look OK, so plans normal approach and descent to Bankstown.
Maybe no one, including pilot, recognised how serious the problem was until well beyond Richmond and then was too late to change plans.
Maybe lost all power gradually in last few minutes.
Anyway its all speculation, very sad but we can learn from it
Engine coughs a bit, comes good, decides to return, things pick up and look OK, so plans normal approach and descent to Bankstown.
Maybe no one, including pilot, recognised how serious the problem was until well beyond Richmond and then was too late to change plans.
Maybe lost all power gradually in last few minutes.
Anyway its all speculation, very sad but we can learn from it